Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

They brought Jeremy Crawford onto PfH2 at least partly to give his=WotC's blessing for Larian to make changes to 5e rules since "designing for a tabletop game is very different than designing for a videogame". So I doubt appealing to WotC will do anything. Which I honestly agree with - requiring all non-WotC published 5e content to exactly match 5e RAW wouldn't be the greatest.

Larian should have the freedom to make changes...I just disagree with a lot of the changes they're making. (I agree with some of them too - e.g., at least the concept of weapon abilities if not the actual implementation.)

I actually like throw, especially for a Barbarian to be able to do. Makes sense. Ogres, trolls, minotaurs, yes. Throw makes sense.

What I don't like is Shove = Bonus so Throw and Shove can occur in one turn AND the distances are ridiculous. You shouldn't ever shove or throw a creature 30 feet.

Again, 2-3 pound axe range should be 20 feet with 60 max (at disadvantage beyond 20 feet). So, the most you should be able to Shove/Throw a creature is maybe a max of 15 feet at best.

I was thinking something like Shove/Throw Range = Athletics + 5 feet and requires an Athletics vs. Athletics/Acrobatics roll to successfully just shove or throw. To throw into another target, a Ranged Attack roll. Max range = Strength Score. Anything above normal range requires disadvantage to attempt to throw one into another.

Example: Dorn has Strength 15, Athletics +4. He can shove/throw 9 feet. If he does either, opposed roll is made. If he throws one enemy into another, Ranged Attack must be also made. If target of throw is 10-15 feet away, he can still throw one goblin into another, but he has to make the Ranged Attack against the AC of the Target, and he gets disadvantage because it's beyond normal range.

As for Damage, Throw should be 1d4+Strength Modifier Blunt Damage if within normal range (so Blunt Resistance applies). If you throw one enemy into another, the damage is split between them. So, Dorn's Strength Modifier is +2, so the most damage he could do is 6, and if he throws one into another and gets 6 Damage, each take 3. Intellect Devourers and Imps would then take only 1 since they are Resistant to Blunt Damage.

If you throw more than your normal range, the throw was harder, therefore, though you got Disadvantage to maybe throw an enemy into another enemy, you might do more damage since the distance is further. So, increase damage die by 1, making it similar to fall damage. So, beyond normal range, damage would be 1d6+ Strength Modifier Blunt Damage - and again split between enemies. So, Dorn throws a goblin 15 feet into a rock wall. He rolls 1d6+2 damage and gets a 6 total. Goblin takes 6 bludgeoning damage. No Ranged Attack roll necessary since there is no living target he's throwing the goblin into. He had to make the opposed Athletics vs. Athletics/Acrobatics of the goblin, but no Ranged Attack roll.

However, same scenario, he throws Goblin 1 into Goblin 2. He needs to get a 14 or higher since Goblin 2 has AC 14. He has to make this attack roll with Disadvantage. If he misses, Goblin 1 still takes 6 damage. If he hits, both goblins take 3 damage.

Oh, and those who are thrown or shoved should be knocked prone, and BOTH should be Actions so you can't do both in the same turn.

Now, some might ask, why would you then ever Shove as opposed to Throw? I mean, if you need to do the same opposed roll for both, why ever Shove? The answer is simply this: Anyone can Shove. No Strength requirement necessary. Make your opposed roll and you're good. Throw, however, which does damage, has a Strength Score prerequisite. This, it seems, they already have, which is good, so I won't touch those mechanics. It seems well done that you need certain strength to throw since you can deal damage with it. That I like.

The point is that the Strength Requirement/Damage should be the only major differences between Shove and Throw. Shove and Throw should both require Athletics vs. Athletics/Acrobatics rolls, and they should have a severely limited range, and the damage should be much more nerfed for Throw.

These are my suggestions for a better homebrew for both of these. PLEASE Larian!!!! I'm begging you to do SOMETHING like this. It doesn't even have to be this exact thing I've just outlined, but SOMETHING similar. You've GOT to nerf Shove/Throw. It's too much. I feel like enemies are just shoving my characters all over the game map all the time, off cliffs and ledges, and they do more damage from making me take fall damage than anything else... and from WAY too great a distance. It really does ruin the game a lot for me. I REALLY REALLY don't like getting shoved into lava - and it was Lae'zel who got shoved in! Lae'zel! With 18 Strength! 30 feet from the edge!

@GM4Him same. I like the concept of throwing; after all throwing halflings and/or goblins is a time-honored tradition in 5e. It's just the implementation that is poop.

This would be relatively balanced and reasonable. Importantly, 2 rolls are required to 1.) Shove/Throw the enemy and 2.) hit another enemy with them.

Although at this point, what is the point of Shove if Throw is just strictly better? Shove only moves an enemy, while throw does damage to them and possibly an additional enemy! Seems like throw should be harder/cost more/have less distance...
Edit: you gave a possible answer to this in your edit. I might argue for "Proficiency in Athletics" instead/in addition.

Oh! Yes! I like that. Proficiency in Athletics + Weight Limits for how much a person can actually lift and throw. Throwing axes and cats at enemies makes sense. Picking up and throwing a goblin at another goblin should require at least 14 or 15 Strength, or whatever. And you're right, they should at least have some Proficiency in Athletics, thus giving more value to the skill.

I wouldn't want a blind conversion of tabletop either. Some stuff like reactions really just don't work as well in a multiplayer video game, and some 5e stuff is far from perfect and should be changed.

But still, need to keep the drum beating so that they won't forget a Core Rules setting is badly wanted. RAW D&D plays a lot better as a tactical combat (video) game than BG3 does, currently.

RAW 5e Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.

Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don't usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength. Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature's carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

So, I agree. This doesn't really make sense. If the average person has a Strength of 10, they can lift 300 lbs? I can hardly lift 25 lbs. There's no way I could lift 300 even if I REALLY put my back into it. And that would mean that the average person could easily pick up and throw a person who weighs more than Homer Simpson (who weighs like 230 lbs, if I remember correctly).

So, yeah. RAW 5e doesn't always make sense. Lifting a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity? No. That makes no sense at all.

Note, for those of you who don't know pounds, 180 lbs is roughly an average man with a height of roughly 6 feet tall, which is a fairly tall man. 160 lbs is more like the average height and weight of a man. Yeah. I don't get what they were smoking when they made up that rule. Maybe fireman's carry or something. Maybe.

Shove and throw one foot per str attribute for medium sized creature with save. Just my two cents.
Modded based on size/weight for both.

Bear in mind, that's push/lift/drag - not carry, and not throw. You can put your shoulder agiasnt a 300lb object and shift it, very slowly across the ground, or you can, with the limits of your strain, flit it off the ground, say, enough for someone too pull a carpet out from under... but at that weight you can't carry it around or throw it.

By "Lift" it does seem like they meant "at all possible to carry while retaining some mobility" So yes, thinking of a fireman's carry is more appropriate than thinking of just lifting something with your arms.

Most people can carry another person - piggyback or fireman's carry - and still move at least at a walk. Generously, you could extend this to maybe 1.5x another person -> which on average would get up to ~230 lbs. This gets close to 300lbs, though a difference of 70lbs is still a lot!

But of course there's a big difference between "carry" and "throw 10+ feet."

Ok. After some thought, I guess it depends, again, on definition. What is Average? In D&D, the average person, Strength 10, is likely more active and strong than the average person I know. I mean, people in medieval times didn't have the luxury of sitting around watching TV and playing video games.

So, average farmer man or fisherman could probably lift 300 lbs maximum. I guess I have to face it, if most of the people I know were D&D characters, they'd probably have Strength 8 or 9... Maybe even lower. 😔

Ok. So, back on topic.

What about this:

Shove = No prerequisites. Anyone can do it. Costs Action and requires Athletics roll. Target resists with Athletics/Acrobatics. If target fails, they are shoved 1 meter/3.28 feet per point of Strength modifier and knocked prone (minimum 1 meter/3.28 feet). So, since the game defaults to metrics, we use that as our guide. A person with Strength 18 could then shove someone 4 meters/13 feet. Primary purpose is to both push an enemy away and knock prone so it takes them more movement to get up and to you AND prone makes it so allies get advantage on melee attacks. Thus, it is worth an Action. However, if strategic, you could use it to shove off cliffs. Just be careful yourself about getting within 13ish feet of a ledge. Also restricted by size category. Can only shove up to 1 size greater than you, AND distance is reduced by 1 meter/3.28 feet if pushing bigger size targets (minimum 1). Likewise, shoving smaller targets increases max distance. Each category smaller adds 1 meter/3.28 feet. Halflings beware!

Throw Creatures = Requires Athletics Proficiency. For each size category, requires +1 to Strength. So, Tiny = 12-13, Small = 14-15, Medium = 16-17, Large = 18-19, Huge = 20-21, Gargantuan = 22+ (maximum = same size category as you so Lae'zel isn't able to yeet an ogre, and a duergar Enlarged isn't throwing around dragons). Costs Action and requires Athletics roll. Target resists with Athletics/Acrobatics. If target fails, they are thrown 1 meter/3.28 feet per point of Strength modifier and knocked prone (minimum 1 meter/3.28 feet). Like shove, distance is modified by size category, so an ogre can throw a goblin further than a human. Target also makes a Dexterity savings throw of 8+Attacker's Athletics skill (so you can potentially even throw allies without them taking damage if they roll well). If successful, no damage. If fail, take 1d4+Strength modifier bludgeoning damage for Tiny, 1d6+Strength modifier for Small, 1d8+Strength modifier for Medium, 1d10+Strength modifier for Large, and so on (the bigger they are..,). Throwing one enemy into another requires Ranged Attack check with disadvantage every time because, let's face it, target 1 is going to struggle and make it hard. If successful hit, both targets suffer bludgeoning damage per above (projectile determines damage), and they are both knocked prone near to one another. (No Dex save if throwing one enemy into another. The Ranged Attack determines a successful hit and damage is taken.)

I thought about it and it does make sense that they both receive full damage instead of splitting the damage. If someone throws another person into you, that's going to hurt. If someone is able to throw another person into you from like 10 ft away, or about 2 meters, yeah that's going to be some considerable pain. However, the limiting factor is that it is hard to actually hit because you receive disadvantage on your attack roll. Also, size matters. Throwing a cat at someone shouldn't hurt as much as throwing an ogre...unless the cat is also clawing your face. 😏

While i agree with tuco that more new threads would not have been necessary, maybe larian will come around when they see a new thread about this every day (Hope dies last, doesn't it?)

I have written this in one or 2 other "throve" threads already, i think even i made one myself.

Shove, and by extension the jump are the most infuriating mechnics in this game for me since they break the whole combat system that D&D built. Can't move your dwarf far enough? Shove him, etc etc.
The distances are so far removed from even Faeruns reality that i quit the game more than once already when, once again, one or three characters were pushed somewhere unsafe, like say, lava, over cliffs or whatnot. Had they wings they would probably travel once around the world.

The fitting rules are there, in the Players handbook on page 195/196. I even copied the whole thing in another post. No need to think something up.

For jumping it's the same. When the enemy starts to jump around more than they move normally, something is seriously wrong. Most are wearing chainmal or heavier armor, you do not jump like 5 or 10 meters with that. I can understand the jump outside of combat for movement reasons, but this is ridicoulous.

Just these mechanics make most combats a slapstick comedy. If that's what is intended, good work larian!




@GM4Him You can also search for your own posts in your profile, no need to use the awkward forum search

One more though:

Thunderwave!

Whats more effective? Spell or shove? Think about that...

I mean, that's all fine and good, if you're theorizing what Larian should do to make the mechanics (they've already built into the game) more fun for everybody who wants those mechanics to be built like D&D, and to have at least some small semblance of balance and realism. There's a huge "but," that comes with that though. But it doesn't seem to me like Larian gives a Duergar's arse hair about D&D mechanics, balance, or realism. If they did, we would have never had these conversations in the first place.

Also, I get it, tabletop games don't always translate well to video games. However, I'm of the mind that 5e actually translates pretty darn well to video games. Clearly Larian thought it did too, or they wouldn't have taken on this project and hyped it as a "5e video game." That is how they hyped it. That is why they got such a large initial audience for this game. I know for a fact there are a large number of people that bought into early access because they wanted to see if Larian actually was bringing 5e to a video game with awesome narrative and the kind of graphics and gameplay we've come to expect from Larian.

At this point I'm starting to feel like every update is pushing them further away from being true to 5e and closer to being true to some kind of wacky circus of a game that sort of resembles D&D because of, you know, lore and stuff, but otherwise is entirely its own beast. Likewise, not sure if they care or not, but it's a beast I don't particularly like.

On that note I’ve noticed this patch goes all-in on the homebrew magic items. I’d rather they put in more of the iconic DMG items first before doing that.

Even if I share some of your thoughts, and some people here knows that I HATE shove as is it right now... I have another answer to this post.

This sugestion is just too complicated...

It will mean : you click shove + on the creature + target the pit. You see a saving throw up their head, successful or not depending your strenght and maybe the dexterity of your opponent...
Successful = the range is something. If you fail, it's something else the UI cannot show you. But it also depend the size of the creature. And it's reduced by only 1 meter if...... and so on...

Complex rules are probably ok in a TT where players have to be VERY implicated, and where a DM always know everything... But not in a video games.

Shove should JUST :
- be an action
- "%to hit" = easy formula
- distance = easy and constant formula without any IF.
(- and the animation should change... Disney squirrels and so on...)

Video game players don't need any athletic or acrobatic rolls. They don't need someting a bit different if your size is different of the target's size. They need constant and consistent rules they can easily understand.
GM's suggestions (as always) make a lot of sense. But this one don"t for a wide video game audience in my opinion.

See, there's another prime example of what I'm talking about, that I didn't even think about. Don't target a D&D 5e audience with your advertising but then make a game that's "essentially D&D." I don't want whatever you think D&D might be. I want you to, as closely as is possible within the video game space, replicate 5e except as a solo experience. That is what this game was billed as. It is not what this game is becoming. That is my primary argument. Shove as it currently works, Throw regardless of how it works, and stuff like adding in a bunch of homebrewed magic items, are all just byproducts of that larger problem. I've got an idea, instead of wasting time coming up with and then programming a bunch of stuff that isn't D&D 5e why not dedicate your time to taking what already exists and developing it in the game!

Yeah I get it, the counterargument is: "They just gave us the Barbarian Class." Did they though? Sure they gave us a Barbarian class, but it already has a number of deviations from the printed material. Somebody on the payroll is designing all of these things that aren't D&D. Someone is spending their creative energy thinking of "cool magic items" that aren't from the source books. To me that just feels like wasted time and energy that might be better spent, I don't know, engaging with your community of players to see what they'd like to see in game???!!! Or, heaven forbid, reading the actual source books and trying to make a game that adheres to whats in them. Part of me feels like Larian is just skimming the sourcebooks for cool ideas, and not actually paying attention to the meat and potatoes of the nitty gritty details. Of course, I say that having played through about 90 minutes of the new patch as the Barbarian and then quitting due to abject boredom. Maybe the Barbarian class they gave us is a lot closer to what's in the books than I think. Maybe there are people playing the game at tabletops all over the world who play barbarians that do nothing but shove and throw their enemies around. It could be...

On a separate note: @Maximuuus, you said much more clearly what I was trying to say in my post. I think GM4HIM's mechanics there would work very well at the tabletop. Sad thing is all of his theory-crafting was designed to try and make mechanical sense of something that was never intended to make mechanical D&D sense. It wasn't based off of D&D mechanics, so trying to translate something un-mechanical into something mechanical as a way to help Larian figure out how to do it right, is entirely pointless. That's what I was trying to say. Your version makes that much more clear in language that game programmers are much more likely to understand.

Hmmm. Now see. That's what I don't get. Video games should make complicated rules easier. I can craft an excel spreadsheet to compute what I detailed out. I actually think the rules I created would be too complicated FOR tabletop, but a computer could implement them faster and make them easier to abide by because YOU wouldn't have to calculate anything. The computer would do it all for you so YOU wouldn't need to know and remember all the ifs/thens.

A single computer string could compute the data: =if(Lae'zel.Strength >13)*and (Goblin.1 = Small),ifselect(Throw)*and(Goblin.1),randbetween(1,20)+Lae'zel.Athletics,"Target is too heavy.

I mean, that's a rough command string, but something like that alone would determine if Lae'zel could even lift the goblin based on her strength, and if she could then she'd make a d20 roll + Athletics. Add a few other ifs/thens and the computer could determine everything for you in a moment. All you'd have to do, as a player, is select Throw, the target, and the game would either give you the ability to roll to see if you pick them up or just tell you "No, you can't do that."

Then, IF you succeeded, it would calculate for you how far you could throw. Single string command provides distance able to throw. You, the player, don't necessarily need to know all the complex details, but if you wanted to know they could provide you with those details via tooltips. Yes, complicated, but the bottom line is that you don't really NEED to know all the details that it is calculating because the computer does it for you.

So, based on what I was suggesting, let's put it from the player's point of view. You created a Wizard with 10 Strength and no Proficiency in Athletics. You click Throw and select Intellect Devourer. Nope. Game tells you "You do not have Athletics Proficiency." Well. That's it. I know why I can't do it with my wizard. I click Shove. It calculates for me that if I Shove the Intellect Devourer, it'll go 2 meters/6.5 feet and the chance of success is, let's just say, 55%. Simple. Easy. Player doesn't need to know all the factors that went into this. Game just told me, like it does now. If I want to look up all the details as to why 2 meters instead of 1, I can look at the tooltips where it tells me that it is minimum 1, Wizard has no Strength modifier, but because monster is Tiny and wizard is Medium, that's 2 size category differences which means 1 meter per size difference.

Now, say I have a Barbarian with 17 Strength and +5 Athletics. I select Throw and select Intellect Devourer. Yep. Let's me know that I'll have a, let's say, 80% chance of success to throw it. It also calculates for me that I can throw it 5 meters. Wow! 5 meters! Why? I look at tooltips. Strength modifier is +3, so 3 meters. 2 Size Categories smaller, so an additional 2 meters. I select to throw it and rolls for me. Success! I toss Intellect Devourer. It hits the ground 5 meters away. I see a Dex Savings Throw Icon. Success! No damage done to it. Failure! I see it takes 2 damage. Why 2? Check combat log. 1d4+Strength (Tiny) bludgeoning damage. Rolled a 4 total. Devourer is resistant. Half damage = 2.

Shoot! They've probably implemented something like this already. If you notice, it seems to act very similar to this. There would just need to be a few tweaks to what they've already done to tame it down a bit so Goblins aren't shoving players 30 feet off ledges - and IF someone throws you, it isn't THAT far. IF Ragzlin, for example, picks up my human barbarian, even if Ragzlin has 18 Strength, he shouldn't be able to throw him more than 4 meters/ 13 feet. Same with Shove. And IF Ragzlin is fighting a halfling or something, he shouldn't be able to yeet them more than 5 meters/ almost 17 feet.

Bit off topic I guess but I noticed this too. Well on topic since Helmet of Grit gives you an extra Shove.

I don't know why they are homebrewing all this gimmicky junk now with conditions like "when below 50% hp" or "when you heal someone", or sets with "lightning charges". Why can't an axe simply have +1 to damage instead of +1d4 when you are below 50% HP? Why can't Firestoker simply add +1 fire damage and shoot burning bolts instead of +1d4 piercing damage to burning targets. These conditions are too clever for their own good.

I like D&D magic items precisely because they are rare and special. It's a breath of fresh air from the monotonous gear grind in video games like Divinity or Dragon Age where magic items have no significance or character.

Agreed.

And honestly, I'm still not sure if even what I came up with is good. It's still too broken, really. Duergar, for example, would be able to Enlarge and become Large in size. So they could essentially throw ALL our characters without us throwing them. Shove would also be less effective against them, but they could still shove hard into lava.

I guess that's what makes them unique, but all I can think is that the legit RAW 5e rules still reign in this regard, nerfing shove so you can't push people easily off ledges and 1-hit KO them.