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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2020
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If the robes aren't gonna get restricted to monks and spellcasters in the future, it'd be pretty amusing (and a little disheartening, perhaps) to see min-maxy Dexterity + Constitution barbarians wearing expensive silks all caked in blood and mud along with a shield and a scimitar or something. Is that a thing? Barbarians fencing in robes? Using finesse weapons under rage seems like a Monty Python scene. It can be. Sort of. Finesse weapons let you attack with Strength or Dexterity, so there's nothing stopping you from picking up a rapier or a dagger and using it with Strength. It's usually a little pointless, since most finesse weapons do worse or at best equal damage as their non-finesse equivalents. One odd quirk comes if you're mixing Barbarian and Rogue. One of Sneak Attack's triggers is getting advantage while attacking with a finesse weapon, but it doesn't care about the stat used. Barbarian can give themselves at-will advantage when attacking with Strength, albeit at the cost of giving advantage to attacks against the Barbarian (Reckless Attack feature). In the tabletop, it's a good foundation for a tankier Strength Rogue or a more tricksy Barbarian. "What if I built around Dexterity?" It's possible, but there are trade-offs. A Barbarian: 1) does extra damage with Strength attacks while raging 2) doesn't get the advantage from Reckless Attack on non-Strength attacks 3) gets features based around buffing their crits, which synergises better with greataxes and the like 4) needs 13 Strength to multiclass out of Barbarian So that puts the Dex Barb squarely in the "odd thing to do" category. Still, you never know. Maybe they'll drop in some Belts of Giant Strength somewhere, and my unstoppable naked halfling tank will get their time in the sun.
Last edited by Lavaeolus; 14/02/22 11:32 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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From the PfH / Patch Notes, it looks like Larian isn't implementing any cost to Frenzy - no exhaustion after it's use. This makes the Berserker Barbarian much more powerful than RAW. Of course, BG3 gives away powerful BAs like Shove/potions/etc to everyone, which weakens the impact of a BA attack.
Berserkers also get an Enraged Throw BA while Frenzied. Which apparently knocks the target PRONE (does the enemy get a save?). The Barbarian doesn't really benefit from enemies being prone, what with reckless attack, but still that's another significant buff to the Berserker Barb.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2020
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I was hoping the Berserker would get some touch-ups, since it's tabletop source can be a little underwhelming. The Totem Warrior -- or Wildheart, as it's been renamed -- features have also been altered a bit. The Bear still gives damage resistance to everything but psychic, and the Wolf can still give other characters advantage, but I gather they wanted them to have some more active options rather than just passive abilities. At least, so I assume.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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Holy crap they listened to whoever posted this suggestion.
Barbarian doesn't SHOVE. He KICKS! (At least when he is enraged)
Last edited by Wormerine; 15/02/22 10:42 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Barb trailer sounds like he's being tasered, not yelling
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2020
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So, earlier I mentioned Dex Barbs as a thing that you could sort of do, but were hampered by some features being hardwired to Strength. That discussion did make me notice, though, that when launching BG3 the tooltips for Rage and Reckless Attack did not specify melee attacks 'using Strength'. In the name of science, then, I rolled up Dex, a Strongheart Halfling Barbarian with 8 Strength and 16 Dexterity. First findings, a rapier's attack accuracy with and without Reckless Attack: Without: ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/8bRrhhW/Without-Reckless.png) With: ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/4tgj027/With-Reckless.png) As you can see, the accuracy shot up. Reckless Attack would, it seems, appear to work with Dexterity-based attacks. Second test: attack a few times with a dagger while Raging. With 16 Dexterity, a dagger should do at maximum 7 damage (4+3). If I could have an attack higher, that would indicate Rage bonus damage worked with it: ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/L1PPKHG/Rage-Damage.png) An 8! What does this mean? Well, honestly, going Dex-based still loses you Barb's natural synergy for big ol' heavy weapons and Great Weapon Master. Hell, part of the appeal of Barbarian is probably being able to throw enemies around with impunity. But, assuming it's not patched out or altered to match PHB, for now it seems the Dexterity Barbarian can more or less be. Thought people might find it interesting.
Last edited by Lavaeolus; 16/02/22 08:05 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Sigh. Once again we are faced with the question: is this intentional design or did Larian somehow forget to implement an important mechanic? What does this mean? Well, honestly, going Dex-based still loses you Barb's natural synergy for big ol' heavy weapons and Great Weapon Master. Hell, part of the appeal of Barbarian is probably being able to throw enemies around with impunity. But, assuming it's not patched out or altered to match PHB, for now it seems the Dexterity Barbarian can more or less be. Thought people might find it interesting. You lose the synergy of heavy weapons and being able to throw large enemies, true. But you gain the ability to focus on only Dex&Con instead of Str&Dex&Con - which'll effectively add ~3 to your AC, initiative, and Dex STs. Honestly probably still a poor trade...unless Rage affects ranged weapons and you can take Sharpshooter when implemented??? It's unclear what Strength you need to throw what enemies (Can a Str 8 character throw a goblin?), but it is possible that Throw percentages-to-hit an enemy could depend on Dex (as it seems like throwing is an attack roll). So a Dex Barb might have an equal chance-to-hit when throwing goblins into goblins, but just not as far.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Sigh. Once again we are faced with the question: is this intentional design or did Larian somehow forget to implement an important mechanic? What does this mean? Well, honestly, going Dex-based still loses you Barb's natural synergy for big ol' heavy weapons and Great Weapon Master. Hell, part of the appeal of Barbarian is probably being able to throw enemies around with impunity. But, assuming it's not patched out or altered to match PHB, for now it seems the Dexterity Barbarian can more or less be. Thought people might find it interesting. You lose the synergy of heavy weapons and being able to throw large enemies, true. But you gain the ability to focus on only Dex&Con instead of Str&Dex&Con - which'll effectively add ~3 to your AC, initiative, and Dex STs. Honestly probably still a poor trade...unless Rage affects ranged weapons and you can take Sharpshooter when implemented??? It's unclear what Strength you need to throw what enemies (Can a Str 8 character throw a goblin?), but it is possible that Throw percentages-to-hit an enemy could depend on Dex (as it seems like throwing is an attack roll). So a Dex Barb might have an equal chance-to-hit when throwing goblins into goblins, but just not as far. The bigger problem is the weight limit, on the stream, Sven's character was unable to lift Gale weighing 65 kg at 17 strength. I'm not sure how much the BG3 goblins weigh, but I'm betting around 30kg.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
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The 50% damage resistance from Rage and Berserker's extra attack as Bonus Action seem MUCH more powerful compared to anything a Fighter can do. And no exhaustion mechanic to balance it out.
And with unlimited resting you can spam Rage with reckless abandon in BG3.
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veteran
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Joined: Sep 2020
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The bigger problem is the weight limit, on the stream, Sven's character was unable to lift Gale weighing 65 kg at 17 strength. I'm not sure how much the BG3 goblins weigh, but I'm betting around 30kg. It's good that the weight limits are somewhat reasonable. If only 18+ Str characters can lift medium creatures (and presumably only those that aren't wearing heavy armor), then that will at least prevent all classes from being able to throw most enemies. And even super-strong characters won't be able to lift large creatures or maybe even the heavier of the medium ones. I'm moving our barbarian discussion happening in the other thread to this one, because it's getting fairly Barbarian-focused. Importantly, "showing a 65% chance" does not actually mean there is a 65% to pick up and throw the enemy. That 65% chance could (and I argue, is) actually be showing the chance-to-hit that enemy with a thrown thing [whether object or creature]. It could be luck, but as I said elsewhere, none of the (4? 6?) throw attempts I saw failed. Only the actual hitting the target part ever failed.
Obviously more testing is warranted, and I want throwing to have a chance to fail. I've just seen no evidence of that as of yet. This would be pointless as it would mean that the target is not making any saving throw. If you look closely at the first goblins fight you will see that before Swen picked up a goblin it was 65% displayed and then when he tried to throw it at a spider he had a 60% chance to hit. Most likely, they were lucky on the stream (they didn't use it that many times anyway). Yes, that would be pointless and a terrible implementation....but that doesn't mean it's wrong. The spider having 1 higher AC than the goblin perfectly explains the 65 and 60% chances shown. 65% chance to hit the goblin with a thrown something, 60% to hit the spider with a thrown something. And if you're targeting AC, the target doesn't need to make any STs. Again, I want it to be just luck that they succeeded in every throw. But I can't test it personally for the next week or so, and I've only seen successes so far. Edit: From Niara's PfH Synopsis: "at this point we've seen about ten throws, and there hasn't been a single instance where the throwing character has failed to pick up and throw the target victim; it has simply worked, every time."
Last edited by mrfuji3; 16/02/22 03:38 PM.
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veteran
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Joined: Jun 2020
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I can honestly say that within my own testing (many dozens of throws already), regardless of the displayed percentage, I have never once failed to pick up and toss an enemy. If there is meant to be a check that gives it a chance to fail, it is most definitely not occurring.
Edit: What it *looks* like is being displayed, is that both targets - the grabbed creature, and the aimed at one, are both displaying their own individual chances of "being hit" by the attack - that is, as if they were being thrown at. The display is acting like you're 'targeting' each one with the 'throw' action - which, in a fashion you are. In reality, the grabbed target is not actually being attack, and is simply subjected to the grab an throw, no save, no contest, no check.
Last edited by Niara; 16/02/22 03:54 PM.
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veteran
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Joined: Aug 2014
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The bigger problem is the weight limit, on the stream, Sven's character was unable to lift Gale weighing 65 kg at 17 strength. I'm not sure how much the BG3 goblins weigh, but I'm betting around 30kg. Speaking of weight... The skeletons weighed 20kg. The weakest possible character with 8 Strength can throw any enemy weighing 24kg or less at their leisure. I'm concluding that under this system a level 1 character with 8 Strength can throw any skeleton, perhaps a level 20 lich, into lava, a river or a bottomless pit with a 100% success rate. Seems perfectly balanced.
Last edited by 1varangian; 16/02/22 03:54 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2022
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So far, I've found throwing enemies into enemies to be rather situational. You generally have to go out of your way to create instances where it can be used, that may not make the most sense tactically.
On throwing weapons. It appears you can throw any weapon, but only ones that qualify as Throwable utilize the weapon's DPS to calculate damage. Otherwise, it seems to be about the same as if you were throwing a chair or whatever. I hurled a 2H battleaxe and it did 3 damage. Lol. This prompted me to stop collecting random weapons for the purposes of throwing them.
If you are good about picking up after yourself, you probably don't need to carry that many Throwables around. It also would be convenient if the thrown weapon appeared in the inventory of the targeted creature for ease of looting after the fight.
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veteran
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Joined: Oct 2020
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Something just come to me ... Shouldnt this topic be written in more like Hulk style? You know, it names say "let's talk Barbarian" ... not "let's talk about Barbarian"  So ... RAGNAROK LIKES SMASHING PUNY GOBLINS! O:)
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2015
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some questions:
Regarding throwing, how should it be according to PnP rules and how does it work in the game: - If you want to throw an unwilling living creature (aka enemy), how does it work? I guess you should first make a check to grab the enemy (not sure how this check works). I also guess that grab and throw are two actions so you can only do one of them per turn unless you have more than one action.
- If you throw a living creature against another creature, who takes damage and who makes a check? I guess you have to make an attack roll to hit the target. I am not sure if the creature that is thrown should take damage and if this depends on weather you hit or miss the target.
In an earlier version of the game, someone finished it by using only the throw and shove command and he said it was the easiest run so far. Looks like throwing is getting even more powerful.
Edit: Another question about the barbarien: Did somebody test now if you need to damage someone to maintain rage or is it enough to attack?
Last edited by Madscientist; 16/02/22 05:58 PM.
 Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist  World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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there were grapple rules in 3.5 and 4e donno about 5e. going to guess its related to dex save vs touch attack if that's a thing edit* found this grappling rules
Last edited by fallenj; 16/02/22 06:07 PM.
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veteran
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Joined: Mar 2020
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some questions:
Regarding throwing, how should it be according to PnP rules and how does it work in the game: - If you want to throw an unwilling living creature (aka enemy), how does it work? I guess you should first make a check to grab the enemy (not sure how this check works). I also guess that grab and throw are two actions so you can only do one of them per turn unless you have more than one action. That would make sense. As far as I can tell, throwing a small enemy works the same as throwing an object at the moment - so if you can throw it, then you will throw it. It will always be thrown by the distance limited by your strength vs object weight, and it will roll blunt+fall damage. There is percentage when you "pick an enemy up" but I am yet to see it fail, and I have spotted no roll in combat log. I think it is you doing an attack roll when throwing at the enemy - the object thrown will always take damange - the target only depending if you hit.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Regarding throwing, how should it be according to PnP rules and how does it work in the game If you want to throw an unwilling living creature (aka enemy), how does it work?According to PnP, you should need to make one check to grapple the enemy (athletics vs enemy's athletics or acrobatics). There are no PnP rules for Throwing a creature so it requires homebrew. The most relevant rules are: - Shove (move enemy 5 feet with a successful opposed athletics check) - the fact that grappling a creature allows you to move them with you at half speed - characters can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to 30x your strength score. So something easier than Shove but more difficult than "can throw anyone 30 feet trivially and with no action-cost" would be appropriate. E.g., athletics check at Advantage, can throw a creature up to 20x your strength score, and throw them 15 feet. These checks would be attack-equivalent actions, so if you can make multiple attacks each of these would replace a single attack. If you throw a living creature against another creature, who takes damage and who makes a check?Again, there are no exact PnP rules here so it requires slight homebrew. Either you'd made an attack roll against the enemy's AC, or they'd make a Dex ST to avoid damage. RAW, the thrown creature only takes damage if they fall more than 10 feet. That said, taking no damage makes Throw equivalent to a shove, yet Throw requires 2 (attack-equivalent) actions. Thus, it's reasonable that it deals damage in addition to any fall damage.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2021
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Now that we’ve seen the descriptions of Larian’s implementation of Berserker and Totem Warrior (Wild Heart), Berserker or Bear Heart? Does removing the exhaustion after effect of the Berserker move it up in ranking? Previously, a few people had said Bear Totem for sure was the best in PnP. Is that still the case in BG3 with their implementation?
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2020
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Now that we’ve seen the descriptions of Larian’s implementation of Berserker and Totem Warrior (Wild Heart), Berserker or Bear Heart? Does removing the exhaustion after effect of the Berserker move it up in ranking? Previously, a few people had said Bear Totem for sure was the best in PnP. Is that still the case in BG3 with their implementation? Glancing over at Reddit, I see people are very happy about the removal of the exhaustion effect. I'm not familiar enough with the class to say much else, other than Wildheart appears to be a homebrew replacement for Totem Warrior, and it makes me wonder if someone at WotC specifically OK'd it and if we might see it in official material later. It's actually rather interesting that Larian would homebrew a subclass, considering their licensing restrictions would be many tiers less severe than Solasta being forced to homebrew almost everything. Although it looks like Wildheart's existence hasn't actually reached the tabletop community yet, it looks like the tabletop community isn't really following the project closely anymore, at least for the time being.
Last edited by Saito Hikari; 16/02/22 07:13 PM.
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