Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

Doing mental backflips here trying to insist that all those people who use and enjoy shove secretly agree with the anti-shove crowd.


Of course we like it as a bonus action. It gives us more stuff to do in a turn.


"If only all those casual gamers were expert gamers then they'd agree that Shove is bad-game!"

Hmm. Interesting argument. But nah. Plenty of folks love shove whereas there's a handful who don't. The part I'm pointing out, which is obvious to just about everyone and has been talked about in depth, is that the same people who hate shove *keep* talking about it, sharing their disdain, over and over again.



Like I said, a handful of people. Compare that to the thousands and thousands of comments saying "BEST GAME EVER!!!" all over the world wide web. Compare that to the streaming comments expressing laughter and joy as characters get shoved about on live streams.



What?

Of course not. I'm not in favor of a small group of people who:

1. Lobby endlessly to make something I enjoy less fun, and
2. Do so in the most negative, cynical, and bitter manner possible, all the while
3. Pretending without credentials that they're actually experts on game development and everyone else is a dummy.

It's one thing to say, "Hey, I think the game's too easy with shove." To which I can say, "I don't think it is. Count the encounters where shove changes everything."

It's one thing to say, "Hey, I don't like shove because it's not realistic." To which I can respond, "I get it, but that's not something that bothers me. I appreciate the way it's a bit larger than life."

It's one thing to say, "Hey, I wish it was an exact duplicate of 5e." To which I can say, "I appreciate that, but I don't share your desire. I'd prefer it be different here and there to make it more fun as a computer game."

All of those things make for reasonable conversation and discussion. Unfortunately, it's turned into more of a lobbying effort on behalf of the anti-shove crowd than an actual discussion. In my opinion.

Yeah, you aren't really fooling anyone.

Ah yes, the good old "Why do you people keep talking about the same problems that were never addressed or fixed?".
Gee, I can only wonder!

Also, before making ANY confident claim that most of the generic non-specialized audience is going to like a certain tweaked feature more, you should give them a chance to actually try both solutions and form an informed opinion.
Otherwise you are just relying on their unfamiliarity with the genre and the systems at play to get an uninformed, uneducated superficial first impression.
And with a first impression and a good presentation you can fool people into liking any sort of broken shit that will show its limitations and problems in the long run (DOS 2 armor system, anyone?).

You restarted this argument. I am not here to remove something you like, I suggested they simply put it on a Feat to make it more player choice. You ignored that post so you could continue a strawman argument against the people here who do not like something but are TRYING to find a way to keep it in and balance it so its more fun for everyone. That is the last I will say to you on this, as we can return to the actual conversation. If you have nothing to add that will move the conversation forward, I suggest stopping.

I think keeping it on a Bonus Action will be fine since, as someone said, Fighters will become insane later on once they get multi-attack and Action Surge.

I'm not making any claim to what these people think. I don't argue that they're "having a blast" and I don't argue that they "secretly agree with the anti-shove crowd." They might do either, but we don't know. All we know about player opinions is what they directly post in forums/reddit/etc. Please stop misrepresenting my argument, and please stop claiming that you somehow know what thousands of players are thinking.

This is a perfectly fine response to that argument! Theoretically Larian will see each poster who argues for/against a mechanic, and weigh the #of posts and their arguments when making decisions. But it's not okay to say your opinion is the silent-majority-held opinion without proper evidence. And high use of a mechanic (not that you actually even know how often players use shove) does not equal evidence of enjoyment. Neither does general enjoyment of a game ("BEST GAME EVER!!!") equate a like of all of its mechanics.

He doesn't even like it. Not really, at least.
He's the type of user that would FIGHT anyone on the forum to defend anything Larian is doing, only to change his tune entirely in the moment Larian will reconsider the feature in a possible future.

We've seen it happen all the time. "You basement dwellers want to kill fun, this feature is great".
*feature turns out to be broken and the dev changes it*
"Yeah, now it's much better. See? They are actually listening and you people complained for nothing!".

It's the game of moving goalposts.

"Damn ! I clicked the end turn button but I forgot to shove before..."
I have no doubt some people like to shove at each turn... But I'm not sure shove is mostly loved because you can do it more or less at each turn...

(or use it to disengage as a bonus action, or use it to use help as a bonus action,...)

Agreed. Considering the Strawman arguments, its honestly best we just ignore them and move on with the actual topic at hand. Nothing can be achieved by responding to them and the topic will continue to be derailed into an endless argument that doesn't actually achieve what anyone wants.

Like I said, it's an anti-shove lobby, and it works tirelessly to bully others who disagree.

Someone comes in and says they like shove, next thing you know...


...they're being told that they secretly don't like it!

Unbelievable.

The topic is about shove.

My argument is that shove is a great mechanic and it should stay.

How is that not on topic?

I haven't read anyone yet on this forum saying that shove shouldn't stay.

We have only ever talked about balancing it differently.
It's perfectly fine if you like it as it is. It's perfectly fine if we don't.

Again, sigh, it has to be said.

My position is that it's great and should stay. And by great, I mean great as it is, without tweaking. And by stay, I mean it should stay as a bonus action because it makes the combat more fun.

It's a good position. Even if not a very popular one where people talk about it

Back on topic, maybe shove could be 5ft per strength modifier. So at +1 its 5 feet, +2 10 feet, up to a maximum of +25 feet at Strength 20. Do this, tied to a feat. Therefore you have to decide at lvl 4 if you want to give up your ASI for a feat or get an ASI. This ties nicely into a Strength build.

Shooove and fart. Thats what it should be cald.
Makes this <<<BG3>>> wanabe game even silier, like it or not.
Should have an option menu to completely turn that and PG13 Disney shit OFF.

This game is turning more and more into a D&D for kids <edition>.

At the very least, Shove should be an action ONLY available out of combat. There, problem solved. You can have your Disney fun without impacting combat gameplay with this silly mechanic. OR MAKE IT A SPELL for magic users.... Psychic PUSH or something.

Haha, so the only topic is how to change Shove? And saying Shove shouldn't be changed is off topic?

How neat.

Imagine a world where people have different opinions and are ok with that.

Stop being defensive about people having a different opinion than yours, people. Regardless of whether you're for or against something. The only correct response is "Cool, good for you. I don't enjoy shove as it is, this is why and I'd like for my voice to be heard by the developer." then leave it at that, move on.

Ah geez! See. Forgot about that. Sigh. See? RAW 5e. 5 feet shove or knock prone. Action not Bonus Action. The point of shove isn't to be a major attack. It's supposed to be an option for certain circumstances. Need to get an enemy away from your squishy mage? Shove so they can retreat and cast spells still. Enemy on ledge not paying attention. Sneak up and shove off.

As for throw, there is no 5e. So, best solution is to limit distance to maybe 10 feet and make it an Action and BA. After all, you can damage an enemy AND toss them into other enemies to damage them AND you can make them go away so your mage can flee and still cast spells AND you can throw them off cliffs. Quite OP even when given such restrictions.

Just for the record ...
I believe i have. :-/

This is a really good point.

The distance is actually a much bigger offender than the action economy of it. The ridiculous distance is what KILLS tactics in combat, not so much the fact that you can spam it easily since you will later be able to anyway. When a random Duergar yeets a PC into lava from the center of a large room the mechanic undermines the player using good tactics and actively staying far away from the hazards.

In a video game they absolutely should make the system a bit more complicated and factor in the Strength of the attacker and the weight of the defender when calculating the distance. Creatures that would be anatomically hard to Throw or Shove like spiders should have a natural resistance against it. The ridiculous power Shoves that can easily decide the outcome of combat or one shot targets should be reserved for extremely strong creatures or require a Potion of Giant Strength to pull off. That would be tactical. Focus firing or disabling the Duergar that drinks such a potion when there are lethal hazards around.

Considering Action Surge and higher level Fighters combined with the high focus on verticality in BG3, I would probably still limit Shove to max 1 attempt / turn. At least make it Shove + 3 x Pushing Attacks for a 5th level Battlemaster to expend some resources. Action Surge is a pretty insane spike tbh.

Agreed. BA shove 5 feet would most often be equivalent to taking the Disengage (bonus) action, which while powerful is not overwhelmingly powerful. Even in areas with cliffs/lava/pits, there wouldn't be thaat many situations where an enemy was within 5 feet of a cliff, it was your turn, you can reach the enemy, and you succeed on your shove check.

Double agreed. Larian should take the opportunity to undo some of the simplification WotC did to make 5e more friendly and speedy to play, e.g., in turning everything into (Dis)Advantage. High ground +2? Good. Flanking into +1 or 2? Wouldn't be terrible. Shove distance depends on Strength/weight/size/atheletics check/# of legs? Good. I believe in Pathfinder creatures with more than 2 legs get bonuses to the Combat Maneuver Defense. And it'd be cool to put serious resources into making an important Shove attempt(s) succeed, or otherwise dealing with a shove-master enemy.

Eh I don't agree but I'm not categorically opposed. If Shove is only 5 feet then it's much less powerful, and a fighter dedicating multiple attacks and possibly AS to attemptshove a foe multiple times to off a cliff is fine to me. As long as instant-death pits and lava aren't too common of course. Theoretically an enemy should successfully avoid a shove ~10-50% of the time depending on the relevant skills scores, so even 4 shoves in a row will only on average yield 2-3 successful shoves = 10-15 feet.