Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Dual Wielding and Bonus Actions

With the inclusion of Berserker I was thinking about dual wielding again and how useless it is.

There's no reason to ever make a dual wielding Berserker build because they can already make a two handed attack with BA. For other classes all the new LBA's (Larian Bonus Action) now also compete with the off-hand attack and make dual wielding even worse than it is in 5e. Namely Shove. Why would you make an off-hand attack when you can Shove someone over the ledge or into lava, without any investment in a Feat or Fighting Style? Or drink a potion. Or use a Weapon Skill.

For a low Strength Dex Rogue, the off-hand attack can be better than Shoving. But that's about it.

I think it would be cool if dual wielding Long Swords could be at all viable. Or if a Berserker could go to town with a Battle Axe and a Morning Star.

Could they make it viable in BG3 somehow since we are now heavily homebrewing? Fix something that IS broken for a change. It should get it's own Weapon Skill at least. Twin Strike.

Reverting Shove into an action would help this issue as well of course...

So about that... is that how it is supposed to work or is it another homebrew? I googled berserker but I can't find anything in 5e rules. It seems like an incredibly powerful buff.

As far as i know ... it is:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/barbarian#PathoftheBerserker

//Edit:
Dual Wield seems more like a path for Totem Warrior indeed. :-/

Especialy if you are Half-Orc Barbarian-Berserker and want massive Criticals.

Basically dual wielding is never worth it for anyone.

You need Two-Weapon Fighting style on a Fighter or Ranger to get your ability modifier to off-hand damage.

Then you need the Dual Wielding feat to be able to use weapons that aren't light and for +1AC.

But the main thing is that the Bonus Action off-hand attack competes with so many other things in BG3 you often won't even use it, i.e. every time there is a Shove opportunity or you need a potion.

The only class that somewhat benefits from Dual Wielding and Two Weapon is Blood Hunter, which is a Mercer made class and only because both weapons can have a crimson rite on them.

Outside of that, you can do some fun stuff with a hunter/rogue multi class, but whats the point here. Why be creative when you can shove.

The full weapon attack as a bonus action perk of berserker *IS* a very, very powerful perk that berserker barbs get early. It's a strong part of why, in the rules, it's balanced out with a strong counter-measure - the increasing exhaustion levels.

Do people who think this actually play the game very often?

You don't always have a ledge to throw someone off or lava to throw someone into. And even when you do, sometimes it's a bad idea because you want to get the loot.

As for potions, characters aren't spending the bulk of their time drinking potions.

Something like pommel strike is nice, but it doesn't compete with an offhand strike, certainly not after decent weapons are picked up. For instance, I'd much rather do an offhand strike with the Ritual Dagger than make a pommel strike.

Which, by the way, is part of the joy of wielding weapons. You can mix and match different types of weapons with different effects. In one hand, you can wield the Shattered Flail while you swing Xyanyde in the other. You're basically healing yourself and covering the enemy in Faerie Fire at the same time, making it easier for your companions to hit.

This is way more valuable when you're fighting the Bulette, for instance, than it is for you to be able to shove.

All this hate against shove is misplaced, although I suspect there's not that much hate as most of the negative comments seem to come from the usual suspects. In my opinion, it's a fun addition to the game. I enjoy it in those occasional moments that it's worthwhile to use.

So this is basicaly just another topic complaining about Shove right?
Nothing else matters.

Yes you do. Their combat design revolves entirely around always finding the nearest high ground. And it's always available. The only exception that comes to mind are big creatures and the looters in the crypt. And only because there's an oil barrel in the room you can blow up to one shot the entire encounter.

Anyway, this was about dual wielding which actually needs homebrewing to be viable.

If you have nothing constructive to say, why post at all? Just to seed discord on the forums? We don't need that.

That is a good question ... why have you made that post at all, since you didnt have anythig constructive to say?
My post was at least about topic ... you are just complaining about me.

Its not Dual WIelding problem that you see Shove as perfect answer for anything, that is in your own head ...
Game gives you options ... its up to you wich one and how you will use. :P
(See? Again coment on topic ... try it somethimes. :P )

No, you don't. Lava is obviously not everywhere, and there certainly aren't one-shove-one-kill cliffs at hand in every fight. Far from it.


Ah, there it is, the goal post shifting.

Now it's not about one-shove-kills into the abyss. It's about high ground existing in combats.

First, having levels to interact with in the environment is fun.

Second, the existence of high ground doesn't immediately equate to being able to use the high ground, much less to being able to shove all your problems away.

Consider Fezzerk. Yeah, there's technically high ground to be had in that encounter, if you can fight for it, but it's also just not feasible to arrange a situation where shoving Fezzerk off the high ground is the winning move. It makes way more sense to just attack him, as it does for most of the enemies you encounter in the game.

Just to go through a handful of encounters, if only to show how absurdly disingenuous you're being:

1. The first imps you fight. No one is seriously shoving those imps to their death.
2. At the helm of the Nautiloid. This isn't a shove fight.
3. The intellect devourers on the beach. Again, no one is shoving these creatures to their death. Someone might climb onto the ledge and then shove one or two of them off if they follow, but that's not doing substantial damage. The better tactic is to use ranged attacks.
4. The three people under the mental control of the dying mind flayer. Is shove your big tactic there?
5. The two tieflings debating Lae'zel's future when she's captured in a cage. You're not shoving them to death.
6. Inside the chapel. Yeah, there's an oil barrel there. Also, in case you're not aware, the position of the folks inside depend entirely on your actions before you enter.
7. The skeletons in the dank crypt. Are you shoving them off high ground? Seriously?
8. Outside the grove. Let's say you take the high ground to start the fight. Most of the combatants aren't on the high ground with you, and you have to attack them using ranged attacks. There's one enemy on a ledge on the high ground with you. You can certainly push him off, but not for a substantial amount of damage. Certainly not enough damage to kill him with one shove.

Okay, I've just gone through the timeline of fights all the way to the grove. Most of those fights don't involve shoving enemies off the high ground.

And the ones that do allow you to shove someone (there are basically two of them, one is on the deck of the Nautiloid. It's not necessary to shove anyone, but it can be fun to push the intellect devourer there overboard. And two, on the outside of the chapel, there's the fellow standing on the crate just begging to be pushed off. To those situations, I say: great. That's a good thing because it shakes things up and makes the combat more than: I hit you. You hit me. I hit you.

Again, it's like the people arguing these tired points don't even play the game. Under any analysis, there's way less effective shoving than many of these posts will acknowledge, especially when you start factoring in how difficult it is to shove some combatants.

As for NPCs ruining the player's experience by pushing the PC into lava... I've played well over a thousand hours of this game, and I haven't had this problem.

I'm convinced that people are being hyperbolic and grossly disingenuous. I suspect the reason is because they want a game that's "true to 5e rules." Well, that's fair. Except I don't care about 5e, not even in the slightest. I accept it as the inspiration of the game, but I think of the game as being 5e adjacent. All I care about is how interesting the game is and how interesting the combats are. Like I said, I have no interest in: I hit you. You hit me. I hit you.

I want my characters jumping around the map. I want levels and high ground and shoves and the occasional exploding barrel. I want to replay scenes and look for different ways to win them.


I disagree. I already explained how dual wielding can be superior to using the offhand bonus action for something else.

You know, I'm not convinced that saying "Shove sucks" 500 times in different posts is constructive.

And when someone does say it that many times in a row (like a broken record), it seems reasonable to point that out. No?

In most cases it is the superior choice. Having options doesn't mean much if those options aren't well balanced. There are some encounters in which shove won't be as useful, but in any encounter where there is high terrain and/or insta-death pit shoving just offers a better payout then offhand attack.

I don't think it is the superior choice in most cases. Certainly because most cases don't involve insta-death pits. Or high terrain with the enemies positioned perfectly to take advantage of the maneuver.

Now, when those situations do present themselves it can be the superior choice. But those situations are rarer than some people are giving them credit for. And in regards to insta-death pits, one has to always factor in the lost loot, which makes the choice less attractive.

You can rage all you want but the topic is still about dual wielding.

Shove is just one example of a (powered up) Bonus Action that overshadows the off-hand BA attack that requires a feat and a fighting style pick. Larian are choosing to create new Bonus Actions that compete with dual wielding, making it give less returns for the investment.

Arguing about Shove or specific encounters is pointless. It's a cold fact that Larian have overpowered it and another cold fact is that many players are not happy with that. If you want to keep beating that horse you can do that in numerous other threads.

I gues it mostly depends on your priorities ...

After all, as i keep saying over and over ... if some option pisses you off and you hate it, i see litteraly no reason to use it no matter how "effective" it can be.

I mean i play Berserker Barbarian right now ...
And so far i cleaner whole surface and aproximately 3/4 of the Underdark (minus Grymforge) ...
And i didnt shove, or throw away even single enemy ... the reason i obvious i believe, i want their loot and also it would be boring. :P

//Edit:
I said it thousand times and i say it again ...
Complaining about something, while doing it is just like standing in the fire and complaining about having burns. :-/

Funny enough, the more people "use" shove, no matter how much they hate it ...
The more Larian will see in their data surveys that Shove is used.
And speaking for myself, if i would see people using Shove 90% of the time ... i would presume they like it.

Namely shove, you say?


Um, okay. I didn't realize we were the ones beating the horse about shove.

*

Back to the point then: dual wielding is useful. It's not just about the damage of the offhand weapon. It's also about the effect that weapon may produce.

Basically, offering other options doesn't lower the value of an option.

Think about it logically. You have five dollars. There are several things you can purchase with your five dollars. None of those things are suddenly worth less than five dollars simply because there's something else you can spend the same amount of money on.

In an ideal world, all of the "five dollar" options would be equal in value, overall. Some might be worth more to the individual purchaser in the individual moment, but all should be relatively equal in value, overall to the consumers and their particular needs at their particular moments.

What you're trying to argue is that "dual wielding" is worth a single dollar while some other bonus action is worth five dollars, thus making the other bonus action superior in all ways.

This is just not the case though. Again, the value of the offhand weapon is *more* than just the damage it deals. It's also the value of the effect the weapon offers in the moment of game play.

Form a counter argument Rag. Of course I can (and do) ignore shove, the same I ignore broke hotbar Larian provided. It doesn't mean that both wouldn't greatly benefit from an improvement.

A solution could be to buff bonus action to be competitive against other available bonus actions - Larian made some mechanics very powerful. Paths to making the system good are straightforward: buff everything else, or nerf what is OP.

Well, since you do ignore shove ...
I cant quite form a counter argument, while expressing my opinion ... since we seem to be in agreement.

Of course i can try to think someting for you, but what would be the point?

Sure it can benefit from improvements ...
I believe that making it full action would be great improvement ... even tho i cant help the feeling that people would be still complaining that "now there is no reason to do regular attack when i can shove anyone off the cliff to instant death" ... so ... im not quite ure if that improvement would be sufficient. :-/

But those are people who have problem with existence itself for those options, and that is something you can either submit ... or even better, ignore as a developer.
Bcs once you start submiting to please everyone, you can pre-order a room in a madhouse right away.