Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Vision cone ...

I know this has ben told multiple times and it is most certainly not my idea ...
But i feel like Larian is overseeing those coments, so i decided to give it its own topic so it come on bright light.

First of all, lets stop calling them "vision" and start calling them "notice" cones ... it would seem much more fitting.

The idea is quite simple tho:
Please add some area around the creatures where they dont see ... but are aware of their surroundings.
After all, if we are forced to roll to our stealth check, nothing says its bcs we have ben "spottet" ... we could aswell be "heared", "smelled", "feeled"(felt? dunno), or detected by some magical 6th sense.

How big area of "surrounding awareness" should Creatures have? (Not counting any special features like especialy sensitive senses ... only basic range that everyone should have.) single choice
	None ... leave it as it is, only cone and nothing else.
	1m / 3f (?)
	2m / 6f (?)
	3m / 9f (?)
	4m / 12f (?)
	5m / 15f (?)
	More. (Tell us.)
Votes accepted starting: 20/02/22 12:18 PM
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I don't think the vision cone design works well for a turn based game where you can easily exploit them by dashing by 20 meters at a time when someone "looks the other way".

The cones are also far too narrow considering peripheral vision and simply looking around without turning, especially when you are alert. It should be at least 180 degrees.

And then the main thing to detect someone trying to sneak past you is NOISE, which is completely ignored in the current implementation of stealth that only accounts for a narrow tunnel vision that only turns every 6 seconds. It's absurd a Fighter in Heavy Armor doesn't even roll a check outside the vision cones and that pulls the rug under actual stealth builds.

I don't know what "fun mini game" they wanted to create with the cones, but it's not working. I would ditch the cones entirely and make two detection circles that would account for everything - sound, peripheral vision, looking around. Perhaps a shorter radius for a normal Perception check and a longer radius for a check with Disadvantage, to keep the spirit of the "mini game" intact even if the easy exploits would be removed.

I will phrase my answer a bit differently, because, I'm not sure about the number. We already have a certain distance at which hostile by default NPCs attack our characters when we are not in stealth. So for consistent behavior the radius of "surrounding awareness" should be exactly same as that distance.

I do agree the "vision" in game does not feel right both for mobs and players but I must also admit I do not know how Larian can change it that would not just introduce other problems.

It vary hard to for a computer game to be as versitile as a real DM

Yup. Have been done before and it worked well

Voted for 4M, though it's difficult for me to guage how far it is - maybe a little less, maybe a little more. I feel only those who invested in stealth should have a good chance to sneak up to an enemy from behind. "hearing" circle would allow non stealth characters to still utilize stealth at distance, while giving actual benefit to investing in stealth.

It just occurred to me that they best way (in my honest opinion) would be to make several rings around the characters ...
Like at least 4 lets say ...

Anyone more far than 20m would be able to sneak around without any fear.
In range 15-19m (45f cca? really dunno) ... the sneaking character would have to pass Difficiulty 5 Stealth check.
In range 10-14m (30-44f cca) ... the sneaking character would have to pass Dif. 10 Stealth check.
In range 5-9m (15-29f cca) ... Dif. 15 Stealth check.
And finaly in 0-5m (0-14f) ... DIf. 20

That way the closer you are, the harder it would be to sneak around ...
I only wonder if that isnt a little too much work for single ability.

Here's how I think it should work.

Within the current vision cone: a stealth check should be made. If obscured, that check should have advantage and last for three rounds before requiring a new check. If lightly obscured, the check should be normal and last for two rounds before a new check is required. If not obscured at all, that check should have disadvantage and last for only one round if successful.

Outside the current vision cone, there's a distance where the enemy automatically notices the character if the character isn't in stealth. Whatever that distance is, there should be an immediate stealth check made with advantage. That check should last for ten rounds instead of one round. After ten rounds, the check should have to be made again, assuming the character is still within that boundary.

*

Checking every round is just too much. Even the stealthiest character is bound to fail soon under those conditions. That's why I suggest extending the number of rounds one can stay hidden after making a successful check.

If you're right in plain view, obviously one round. Then make the check again.

If you're lightly obscured, a couple of rounds, then make the check again.

If you're heavily obscured, a few rounds, then make the check again.

If you're outside the current vision cone, but close enough to be heard and such, give the character ten rounds of not being noticed after a successful check, then force another check, assuming the character's still in the vicinity.

In combat, creatures are aware of everything obvious around them and are assumed to be constantly looking for threats in all directions. There is no Facing in D&D - this is why rogues don't get "backstab."

While in turn based mode, enemies should have detection radii - a smaller one for hearing and a larger one for sight. This prevents cheesing the system by moving all the way past the enemy before they even get their turn and are allowed look around, thus allowing a Fighter with a Dex of 8 in Heavy Armor to sneak past for free.

While in real-time, enemies should have a vision cone and a smaller (~10-15 ft maybe) hearing radii. Players who want to play the "sneak past enemy's vision cone" game can thus do so in real time, where it's an actual challenge instead of the triviality it is in TB.

That's too much granuality IMO - stealth is just a part of the exerience. Make each individual system too convoluted and the whole game become unmanagable.

Stealth checks shouldn't be passive - they should be done against enemy's perception.

That is exactly the idea ...

I'm proposing something slightly different just adding a hearing radius. If Larian added a (smaller) hearing radius but still had the vision cone, then you could still pause time to sneak PAST (staying ~4m away) a patrol while they're frozen in time as long as you stay out of their hearing circle. Which is somewhat exploiting the turn-based nature of the game - that enemies don't move until it is their turn.

My suggestion is that enemies have only Notice Radius while in turn based mode, but rely on a larger vision cone and smaller hearing radius while in real-time and moving about. Alternately, they could still have the vision cone + hearing radius in TB, but maybe they also get disadvantage on a perception checks out to 2x their hearing radius. Basically I want to eliminate the situation where characters can sneak past (again, not getting right next to) an enemy without making a successful stealth vs perception check.

I like this!

That was my intention aswell.

It would depend on the creature, terrain, and environmental sound. If your not a stealthy person and your unfamiliar with say walking in a forest, your going to be making more noise than another that favors that terrain (causing disadvantage or negatives to your stealth roll or bonuses to the person possibly in the area). On the other hand it could be the opposite and say there is a waterfall close by hampering sound.

Vision wise there could be a average for each race but it really depends on perception (wisdom) and on situations survival (wisdom).

I went into detail a long time ago about this relating to Drow, lower darkvision, and none. Along with how shows interact between them.

this is a copy paste from the freebe pdf of d&d 5e

Vision and Light
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—rely heavily on a character’s ability to see. Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area.

The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.
Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.
Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.
Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.

Blindsight
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense.

Darkvision
Many creatures in the worlds of D&D, especially those that dwell underground, have darkvision. Within a specified range, a creature with darkvision can see in dim light as if it were bright light and in darkness as if it were dim light, so areas of darkness are only lightly obscured as far as that creature is concerned. However, the creature can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Truesight
A creature with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane


Did some testing again, generally seems like stealth checks are based on terrain and darkvision doesn't come into play at all, I could be wrong on this. Bright, obscured, and heavy obscured are in the game along with advantage/disadvantage and having both canceling them out. Lae's armor gives disadvantage and tossed shodowhearts class feature on her cancelled it.

My vote would have a full circle around each character/npc for stealth checks along with a wide cone infront of them, range would depend on sight (darkvision/normal)

edit* also while having my party play around in obscured areas, while moving around I would sometimes get caught with no check, probably a bug.