Originally Posted by 1varangian
Your DPS calculations are entirely missing the amount of other Bonus Actions used. They directly reduce the damage output. As pointed out, there are lots of good Bonus Actions in 5e, and MORE in BG3.

Let's unpack this so that it's more than just an assertion.

In my above post, I addressed additional bonus actions, discussing the action economy, and I pointed out how the fighter in question would not typically use a lot of other bonus actions.

I said shove wasn't as necessary when the fighter had a weapon that actually shoved as a feature along with the attack. I also pointed out that fighters could shove as a maneuver with a strike that pushes the enemy and offers an additional d8 in damage.

Other bonus actions, like drinking potions, may happen, as I mentioned, but much more rarely than I believe you're giving them credit for. The reason why is because the weapons being used can often heal and/or buff, and failing that, the fighter is usually supported by someone like a cleric who can effectively tackle much of that.

So, again, you claim that these "other" bonus actions directly reduce the damage output, but the claim remains an assertion without evidence.

Can you refute my points with counterpoints that aren't just assertions saying you're right and I'm wrong?

Originally Posted by 1varangian
Your higher level logic is backwards as well. When you get extra main hand attacks, the single off-hand attack damage becomes less significant. Weapon properties work with the same logic, they are much more powerful as your main hand weapon if you have 3 attacks on that. There will eventually be Shields with properties as well for extra off-hand benefits without a fighting style and feat requirement.

This is a crystal ball argument. You have no idea how Larian is going to develop dual wielding in terms of the number of off hand strikes. And I mean that quite literally. You literally have no idea.

I mean, consider, your biggest argument is that Larian doesn't follow 5e closely enough, and then you follow that criticism by arguing here how future portions of the game will play out. How could you possibly know how many off hand attacks a dual wielder might have at level ten?

As for your "future" shield properties argument, that's the same thing. It's a broad prediction. I'm sure they'll be shields with properties. I'm guessing a lot of those properties will be conditional, but I don't know.

The point is, when it's fact and it exists then the calculus can change. Until then, it's wild speculation.

Right now, dual wielding makes a lot of sense. I'm guessing it will make a lot of sense in the future, also. We'll see.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
And you're vastly underestimating the power of the empowered Shove that doesn't spend any resources and doesn't compete with a main hand attack.

How so?

This is kind of what I mean. Do you see the assertion? Do you see any commentary backing up the assertion? I mean this honestly and sincerely, for the sake of dialogue.

You say I'm underestimating the power of the shove. Okay, can we expand on that and show how I'm underestimating it?

I also feel like I touched heavily on the shove subject above. I literally provided an example of a weapon and a maneuver that did the shove during the actual attack, making it way less useful as a bonus action. <--and that's what I'm trying to do. See? I'm making an assertion and then saying why. I'm trying to support my assertion.

My assertion: shove as a bonus action is less attractive in my opinion...

--because--

My support: weapons can shove as a special ability *and* the fighter has the ability to shove as a maneuver *during* the attack.