Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Consider adding a nudge dream to use Chosen powers

So in this play through (patch 7) I played a Barbarian. As he's of a bit lower than average intelligence, great physique, somewhat charismatic (12) and wise (12) he did not have confidence in his ability to outsmart his adversaries. So he lives by enduring pain and using intimidation to achieve his goals - while among friends he trusts them and backs off in face of trying to persuade them into doing things they don't want to do (like talk about a certain faith or artifact).

This also means he doesn't believe in this Chosen power. He's not a great mindbender and never will be - so he abstains from trying to control others and rely on their own motivation and his confidence in being able to handle any situation with physical means.


He never encounters the Chosen dreams and as such a large part of the story goes untold.


It might be worth it to allow some temptatious dream that nudges him into believing there's power in mindbending others and that this vision wants to help him achieve that power - possibly by befriending him.

So ...
Are you saying that our Daisy should visit and try to Lure us in our dreams regardless of if we are using tadpole powers or not?

If so, then definietly +1!

I already mentionned it in a few thread, but imo the "good" path definitely lack of dreams sequences and powers that makes your character feel special.

The best RPGs of all Time, BG1 and 2 have this system.
Slightly different dreams depending your appeal for the power living inside you + specific skills.

It would be awesome if choosing the good path was not equal to missing important story element. Still hope the EA is only "evil" oriented as they always claimed.

@RagnarokCzD: That is exactly what I mean yes. However, I think the dream should have a different spin in which it tries to 'seduce' you into using the power - or at least convince you it'll be fine

@Maximuuus: Exactly so!

This is part of the lack of compelling story problem with the game. Larian seems to be so focused on playing up being 'edgey' they've forgotten a big part of the average playerbase.

It is really disappointing that the only way to move that part of the story is by their dictated playstyle which is really the antithesis of D&D.

+1 It would be a huge failure of the game if playing without using the powers led to never encountering the Chosen Dreams.

I agree that the dreams and/or ability checks within the dreams should be different depending on whether you have already used the tadpole powers. E.g., different dialogue, (dis)advantage on a save to resist a temptation, etc.

Um, if I'm not using the tadpole powers, it's because I made a choice to not use them, why do I need to have dreams trying to convince me that I'm "wrong"? We already have dialog prompts to use, or not, I don't see the need to add more to it.

It's not that you *need* to have these dreams. I think the suggestion is that the if you chose to not use the powers, then the tadpole needs to try to convince you. It's not about your character's needs. It's about the needs of the tadpole.

Personally, I don't think these extra "convincing" dreams are necessary. There's other development I'd like to see, I guess don't want the dreams to get overwhelming in the sheer number of them.

But I think the purpose behind the poster's suggestion is clear.

I already miss out on a lot of stuff because I don't abuse LRs. All this does is add another reason to take them. I'm quite sure that I'll have characters that use and abuse those tadpole powers, and I'll have characters that don't, and probably a myriad of "in between". I take the dialog prompts as the tadpole nudging me already, I don't see the need for the dreams to add to it. We already have the seduction scenes, which are, to my understanding, exactly what the OP is looking, the tadpole trying to nudge you along.

I dont think good characters are even suppose to get any power.
I believe i have seen some interview with Swen telling us that this power will come for a price and those who will resist it will be rewarded by not paying it. Or something simmilar.

Also i would personaly not support idea of good OR evil power ... i believe there is no tepting then, you are just choosing wich power you want. This way tho you actualy are resisting some temptation ... wich from narative perspective seems much better.

Not necesarily ...

I mean from narrative perspective there is litteraly no reason for us to have only single talk per Long Rest ...
I mean where that idea even came from?
"I desperately need to tell tav that i need to consume magical artefact otherwise i obliterate everything in several kilometer radius ... oh je just talked to shadowheart, well i gues it can wait then."
If this isnt bad design then i dont know what is.

And same as that we go to sleep after we talk to everyone ... so there is litteraly no reason for our seduction dreams to take place instead anything else.
They can simply happen afterwards.

Also there is more option than just that ... i could even imagine some woice whispering to us thigns like "controll them, use the power" once Narrator tells us the symbol glows.

Thats exactly it ... we dont.
First we need to abuse the power and only THEN we get our dreams encouranging us to do so even more ... as i understands it OP is asking for dreams offering us the power before we use it.
Wich would make sense ... if the being that is talking to us wants us to use the power it should logicaly encpurage us to do so if we dont oureselves.

I understand what you and the OP are saying, but I'm with JandK on this one though I think for a different reason maybe.

To me it makes perfect sense the tadpole can't start talking to you until you use it for the first time. When/if you use it the tadpole "grows" or "levels up" if you will, which allows it to now communicate with you. More use = more tadpole levels with who knows what extra abilities it gets... until it starts using them on you.

What temptation are you talking about ?
Try to remember your first playthrough... The tadpole is appealing and show some kind of power mostly in conversations (authority) and it's obviously appealing for someone that wants to play "the evil" choice.

The dream appears right after the firsts dialogs temptation and if I'm not wrong, you gain the power after the first one.

At this point the story is mostly "the tadpole will become more and more powerfull and you will probably loose control/become a mindflayer".
Nothing makes the player understand that your character (>< the tadpole) is going to become more and more powerfull if you embrace the tadpole's power.
On top of that, even if you use it your quest remains to "find a cure"... So I really don't see any temptation related to the special power.

And so I don't see why good players shouldn't have some kind of powers too for being able to "resist" the tadpole's influence. Exactly like you gain special power in BG1/2 for doing "good" things even if something "evil" runs through your veins

Shouldn't it be appealing too ? One way is supposed to be appealing because you have authority + special powers + playing "evil" (+ potential consequences) while the other one should be only appealing because it' means playing "good" ? (- potential consequences, something you only know if you have seen Swen's interview)

I do ... and maybe im paranoid, but from the first look at those choices, they seemed shady ... i mean come on, its the only dialogue option Narrator is pointing out, if that isnt suspicious then i dont know what is.
So i was using the tadpole first in my third playthroug.

Also ... now when im thinking about it ...
Im not sure here since it is some time ago ... but wasnt the tag [ILLITHID][WISDOM], or [TADPOLE][WISDOM] or something like that?

And even in conversations with your temmates, the text after the tag usualy litteraly say "use your tadpole powers to ..."

Exactly ...
And that alone should raise red flag.

Evil powers come for a cost.

Nah ... after second one.

At first Daisy only tells "where are you" and that is whole dream done ...
In second you meet her, and no matter how much you resist her, you get "parting gift".

Im sory, but this sounds like a speculation ...
After all, the only situation where we are told that tadpole has become more powerfull is when Omleuum give us his potion ...
And yes, we know (if we have told the interview with Swen ... OR if we actualy listen to every single one companion we have ) that there possibly may be consequences ... but so far nobody really know what.

Its not explicitly said ... true ...

But as far i remember (i dont, had to google ) that sentence is litteraly: "As the symbol glows, power courses through you. Authority."
If this dont tells you that by using this option you are seizing some kind of power ... then what would?

Well, changing quest would hardly be a temptation after all ... that sounds more like consequence.

And there IS consequence ...
After all, if you are abusing your tadpole powers, your [ILLITHID] tag in text change to [TRUE SOUL].

Well ... maybe they could.
I mean i didnt try to say that they "cant" ... just that as far as i know, the curently planned reward for Good characters is different than new power.

But then there should be consequences for both. :-/

I don't think it is necessarily evil to use the tadpole powers. There are a number of situations where using them avoids bloodshed and not using them results in death.

I prefer nuance in my stories, and since TAV has the tadpole already, and there is a precedent for psionicists in the realm that have the same condition, I think there is a difference between using the tadpole that has been forcibly inserted in your brain to survive, in an unfriendly place you've been dropped into, and using it to take over the FR

I hope therefor that good characters aren’t thus limited to abstaining from enjoying these encounters as that would be rather boring.

There's nowhere where you can use the tadpole to resolve things non-violently that you can't also solve without using it.

It may certainly be understandable that a character reaches for this as an option, because they're scared, or focused on surviving and see it as their best survival option, etc., - but mentally dominating another sentient creature into obeying you, when they are not inclined to, and robbing them of their free will in the matter is definitely an evil action; that's not to say that it should be restricted from good players, or that good players should feel like they can't, or must not, and one or two instances of doing this, in desperation, isn't going to force anyone's alignment necessarily... but using it in the way that we do is definitely evil.

Using it to read someone else's thoughts, on the other hand, is more negotiable - that's no different from detect thoughts, really, and while it's an invasion of privacy, definitely, it's not on the same level as violating someone's free will or mentally compelling them.

My characters generally don't touch the tadpole options at all - they view it as an invasion, and they also don't want to agitate the thing that may destroy them body and soul, just out of pragmatism. Some of my characters do, but most don't. IT will be a poorly designed game if abstaining from this, when there's really no temptation or seduction at all, just cuts you out of content and leaves nothing in its place.

Not necessarily. It depends on the build and the character's stats. There were several times where my character would’ve been killed or overwhelmed by enemies that using the tadpole did result in a positive outcome without killing a mind-controlled creature or being killed.

I think dominating an enemy and turning them away from attacking, is better than killing them, personally.

The game allows people to use charms, read thoughts, and otherwise incapacitate people with spells that deprive them of the ability to move, influence them and cause physical and mental torture, madness, and other spells which are invasive to the mind and cause fear and panic. I don’t see the difference between using tadpole powers, or magic with similar results, except that we are more accustomed to spells being more acceptable, but they have the potential to be invasive too.

I agree, however, that the tadpole should not be used lightly or for personal gain.

No it doesn't... not in the situations that matter. I'm not talking about using the hot bar combat powers - which you only get after using the tadpole and experiencing the violating dreams; the uses that you need to take to get to that point never allow you to do anything or resolve anything non-violently that you cannot also do just as effectively another way, without using it. There is no tadpole dialogue option in the game that averts conflict and is the only way to do so - another option (usually options, plural) always exists that achieves the same end without it.

This statement:

Is just not true, I'm afraid. There is no such situation - not that I'm aware of at any rate. What one are you thinking of?


It's true to a certain extent, and it's a topic discussed every now and then at game tables as well; the main difference here is that using manipulative, compelling or restricting magic in self defence, in defence of one's life, or in the heat of combat is one thing - using compulsion to take away a person's free will actively, because it was easier than resolving the conversation or diffusing the situation some other way, is quite different.

The game, by virtue of being a video game and not an actual live person, is not equipped to handle all the nuance of character decision and motivation - it can't really ask you why you're making a particular choice, and the 'why' is often more important than the 'what' when talking about personal alignment - so realistically, the simplest answer we have to fall back to is that mentally dominating other sentient beings and compelling their free will is, in general principle, an evil act.

For me, the situation with the Gnolls and the traders comes to mind. Without Dominating the female gnoll, my Tav I would've died, and the traders too. Also the cultists and their strange dwarf brother. They attacked me every time. Perhaps my Tav is simply less persuasive. I rarely select Charisma-based characters.



I'm not sure about that. It seems a bit of a slippery slope.

Some people don't have the gift of gab, or the ability to persuade others effectively. That doesn't make them evil though for using the tools at their disposal. One could argue other spells which do not invade a person's mind could also be used in the heat of combat for self-defense and that the character is choosing to dominate a person rather than use a less will-invasive spell.

Perhaps it is a limitation of the game BGIII to not allow the characters to avoid combat nearly as much as might be possible under regular situations. We are somewhat limited in the dialog and scene options.

If that tool is literally magically dominating their mind and compelling them to act as you say, simply because it seems too hard to convince, reason or intimidate them to make the choice you want through other means... and your character doesn't see that as an evil action... then I'm sorry but yes, yes it absolutely does.

I do agree that the game's dialogue is often lacking and dissatisfying at the moment - but as far as I'm aware, any situation where dialogue can be entered into before a fight breaks out also has non-illithid options present for resolving the situation in a way that means a fight does not break out at all. It may be hard to do, especially if your character is not particularly convincing in social situations... but deciding, based on that, that you're just going to take the easy way out, and steal someone else's free will form them, dominate them, and compel them to act as you want, because that's simpler, is absolutely and unequivocally an evil act; there is no question about that, and no dancing around it... if your character does this regularly and doesn't view it as a dark or evil thing to be doing, then I'm sorry, but your character is almost certainly evil.