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Gray Ghost #811070 06/03/22 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OcO
I personally don't find it tedious to check on enemies. You should be equipping yourself for the task at hand. You wouldn't go to the elemental plane of fire without some kind of fire protection. Attack or defense the first thing a player should be doing when they encounter something(from as far away as possible) is examine it to see what you need to take it out. That's just good planning. It is even a bit OP in the player's favor that we can see resistances and such.

If an item that gives some fire resistance would obviously be usefull in the elemental plane of fire"... It's not as easy to know when an item that gives you vulerability to something will be more a bonus than a malus.
It requires the player too examine ALL ennemies attacks (because even looking at their weapons is not enough). Definitely not an item you really know when to use, and even less an item you equip while waiting something eventually better.

In other word, definitely not a good reward (but every items doesn't have to be, it's more a problem when most items aren't).

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I think you've kinda missed the point of Max's statement here. What I read is that from his perspective, he has no more choice than you feel you have in other crpgs. He doesn't like the weirder, niche behaviour items being provided and in his place he's sayins he's presented with...just using the same items for long stretches without even the chance to change to the +2 gear you're talking about.

I'm not saying I'd like +2 items so early in the game. I'm saying that way too much items doesn't looks like rewards at all when you loot them.

While +1 items give us good and constant bonuses, most items in BG3 are - reward "under condition" - reward "with possible punishment" - reward "for 30 minutes of gameplay" and so on.
On top of that many items are totally unbalanced and are absolutely overpowered or totally underpowered.

I mean, just look at most uncommon weapons to compare with +1 (that are also "uncommon")
Looking the fextralife wiki, not sure everything is up to date.

- Blooded greataxe : Common 1D12 greataxe except if you have less than 50% hp. Doesn't most players start to think that's gonna be time to heal at 50% ?
I'm perfectly fine with an armor that gives you temporary HP when you have less than 50% HP... It make sense. But in my opinion magical items should be a reward, not a challenge.
Items with the 50% HP thing (and there are a lot) are common/useless items most of the time that only become a reward when you're in a bad/not so good situation. We'll talk about the "barbarian resistance" thing with the githyanki weapons.

- Club of Hill Giant Strenght : Common club that increase your strenght to 15. Not so bad but not really good.
Just a decent items that may improve a bit druids strength check, but there's absolutely no appeal for a strength character to use this strength weapon.

- Correlon's Grace : Not really good but not too bad item even if defensive properties should be on armor rather than weapon imo.

- Everburn blade : One of the only uncommon weapons that fulfils the purpose of a rewarding magical weapon : doing (more) damage.
You can keep it during the first 25 hours because there's nothing really better except maybe +1 weapons.

- Exterminator's Axe : Common greataxe except against plant (is there plants ?), insects (is there insects ?) and small creatures (what are small creatures ?) that suffer an additionnal 1D6 fire damages.
One more item that is only a reward when the conditions are met. Guess it's only usefull in the swamp and if you fight the goblins... (maybe against the spiders ?)
Another uncommon item we're supposed to keep in our inventory "just in case" ?

- Light of creation : Deals an additionnal 1D6 lightning damage but have a chance to stun the wearer.
The first part really looks like a reward... The second looks like a punishment. Especially because the negative effect is totally out of the player's control.
It woud be a great item even with (let's say) a "-2 to the wearer's dexterity". But not with such a negative effect that can randomly ruin your strategy.

- Loviatar's scourge : Gives resistance to necrotic damage, deal + 1D6 necrotic damage to targets but the wearer also take 1D6 necrotic damages.
This at least is a negative effect under the player's control. Not really interresting imo, but it's a decent items with negative effects.

- Nature's snare : chance to ensnare the target if not a plant or a beast.
Not a must have because most quarterstaves wearer won't attack in melee (or will find better items), but it's an ok item.

- Rain Dancer : Create water spell.
I guess it's a decent item for players that like playing with surfaces. Would be also good as a ring or a necklace...

- Shortsword of first blood : +1D8 damage to target's that have all their HP.
Good damage boost, usefull for many (sub)classes, usefull in every combats. Good reward.

- Staff of arcane blessing : I'm not sure I ever use it so I'm not sure I understand well the description.
Looks like a good item though.

- The Watcher's Guide : If you miss, the next attack against the target is made with an advantage.
Decent item but not extraordinary. It would be a great item if it was a +1 spear.

- Worgfang : Goblin's have disadvantage on attack rolls against the wielder.
Ok item... but for a single dungeon.

- Doom Axe : The target cannot be healed.
A random axe most of the time.

- Dragon's grasp : +1D4 damage to burning targets.
Another random axe most of the time (I thought it was a permanent +1D4 fire damage which was cool, but the fextralife's description is wierd)

- Githyanki weapons : Common weapons most of the time.
And there are shortsword, longsword and crossbow so the "barbarian can survive with less than 50% of their HP due to their resistance" does not work...

- Firestoker : +1D4 to burning targets.
Most of the time a random crossbow.

- Spellthief : Once per Short Rest, you regain a 1st level Spell Slot when you land a critical hit.
Ok, so just because the critical hit this is a random bow most of the time.

- Giantbraker : Reeling condition is pretty decent for weapons.
It think it's an ok item even if it would be better as a +1 item.

Most of these items could easily become great rewards in everyone's eyes as soon as you loot them.
Now they may eventually be considered as such but only after an analysis of your build, synergies with other characters, conditions and requirement, locations you'll be able to use them or how they'll be usefull,...

Not saying it's a good solution that would solve everything but if all these items was +1 it would at least be appealing whatever the conditions and so on.

It's definitely not better with the "rare" weapons at all.

- Faithbreaker is just a +1 weapon with a single powerfull attack / short rest. Why not a permanent bonus even if a bit weaker ?
- Paleoak is just a bonus against druids + a level 1 spell.
- Shattered flail is very powerfull but has another negative effect that is totally out of control.
- Sickle of booal is not that bad but also not really impressive
- Sussur's weapon (after a long quest) are just +1 weapons.
- Sorrow is just one of the worst 2H weapon with a +1 and an attack that would suit better a ranged character than a melee one.
- Adamantine's weapon aren't as good as "uncommon" +1 weapons.

BG3 doesn't look like a game in which the more you progress, the more you find good/better and/or more usefull/appropriate items for your characters...
It is a game in which the more you progress, the more you find variations of items with more or (often) less interest.

The EA is +- 25 hours and you can already have some of the best weapons/armors after 1 hour because most magical items in act 1 are poorly designed.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 07/03/22 07:37 AM.

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WebSpyder #811081 07/03/22 12:09 AM
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1) Githyanki Patrol also drops Greatsword ... so yes, it totally works for Barbarian. wink

2) [Linked Image from miro.medium.com]

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 07/03/22 12:11 AM.

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Maximuuus #811091 07/03/22 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- Staff of arcane blessing : I'm not sure I ever use it so I'm not sure I understand well the description.
Looks like a good item though.

That staff is amazing imo. It doubles the attack and saving throw bonus of Bless from 1d4 to 2d4. Plus it gives Blessed casters +2d4 spell attack as well(Bless doesn't affect spell attack). So with the charge on the staff(no cleric needed) once per long rest you can have anyone you want uber Bless 3 party members for a fight.

OcO #811094 07/03/22 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- Staff of arcane blessing : I'm not sure I ever use it so I'm not sure I understand well the description.
Looks like a good item though.

That staff is amazing imo. It doubles the attack and saving throw bonus of Bless from 1d4 to 2d4. Plus it gives Blessed casters +2d4 spell attack as well(Bless doesn't affect spell attack). So with the charge on the staff(no cleric needed) once per long rest you can have anyone you want uber Bless 3 party members for a fight.

Yeah this staff is ridiculous, it should be Very Rare at least – it's screwing with bounded accuracy.

OcO #811098 07/03/22 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- Staff of arcane blessing : I'm not sure I ever use it so I'm not sure I understand well the description.
Looks like a good item though.

That staff is amazing imo. It doubles the attack and saving throw bonus of Bless from 1d4 to 2d4. Plus it gives Blessed casters +2d4 spell attack as well(Bless doesn't affect spell attack). So with the charge on the staff(no cleric needed) once per long rest you can have anyone you want uber Bless 3 party members for a fight.

Thx a lot, that's what I thought.
A very good item then ! Maybe even a bit overpowered for such a low level item ?

Thank God, Ragnarok didn't quote every single lines cool

Last edited by Maximuuus; 07/03/22 07:42 AM.

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WebSpyder #811101 07/03/22 07:59 AM
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I believe that 2d4 is only for spells ... and other attacks have regular 1d4.
Or did they change it?

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Thank God, Ragnarok didn't quote every single lines cool
There was nothing to quote ...
How can i argue about that you dislike something? smile

The only thing i could criticize in that post is that you wrote "good item" or "bad item" as if there is some general way to measure everything ... while from the context it seems like you should have said "me like" and "me dislike" ...
But im quite sure people noticed so that should be fine.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 07/03/22 08:07 AM.

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
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RagnarokCzD #811102 07/03/22 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I believe that 2d4 is only for spells ... and other attacks have regular 1d4.
Or did they change it?

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Thank God, Ragnarok didn't quote every single lines cool
There was nothing to quote ...
How can i argue about that you dislike something? smile

The only thing i could criticize in that post is that you wrote "good item" or "bad item" as if there is some general way to measure everything ... while from the context it seems like you should have said "me like" and "me dislike" ...
But im quite sure people noticed so that should be fine.

If a caster is holding the staff and casts any Bless spell (staff charge/scroll/spell/etc) it adds +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws on top of the 1d4 to both of those Bless itself grants so 2d4 each. It also adds the +2d4 spell attack.

It is very powerful yes.

OcO #811108 07/03/22 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OcO
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I believe that 2d4 is only for spells ... and other attacks have regular 1d4.
Or did they change it?

//Edit:
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Thank God, Ragnarok didn't quote every single lines cool
There was nothing to quote ...
How can i argue about that you dislike something? smile

The only thing i could criticize in that post is that you wrote "good item" or "bad item" as if there is some general way to measure everything ... while from the context it seems like you should have said "me like" and "me dislike" ...
But im quite sure people noticed so that should be fine.

If a caster is holding the staff and casts any Bless spell (staff charge/scroll/spell/etc) it adds +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws on top of the 1d4 to both of those Bless itself grants so 2d4 each. It also adds the +2d4 spell attack.

It is very powerful yes.

Ugh! At level 4? Act 1?

I don't remember it being that tough previously. Thought it was just that anyone could cast bless who used it. Wonder if they increased it's potency. Ugh! Extremes!

Ugh!

Last edited by GM4Him; 07/03/22 11:07 AM.
OcO #811124 07/03/22 03:26 PM
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5e is balanced around hitting roughly 65% of the time (8 on a d20) for all levels of play (assuming no magic items or Advantage). 2d4 Bless is on average a +5 bonus, meaning that characters will now hit on a 3 or better = hit 90% of the time. That's pretty powerful.
Originally Posted by OcO
That staff [of arcane blessing] is amazing imo. It doubles the attack and saving throw bonus of Bless from 1d4 to 2d4. Plus it gives Blessed casters +2d4 spell attack as well(Bless doesn't affect spell attack). So with the charge on the staff(no cleric needed) once per long rest you can have anyone you want uber Bless 3 party members for a fight.
Also wait, why doesn't Bless affect spell attack? It totally should. Bless should affect all attacks - melee, ranged, or spell.

RagnarokCzD #811146 07/03/22 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The only thing i could criticize in that post is that you wrote "good item" or "bad item" as if there is some general way to measure everything ...

There are a few... Like numbers, but a deeper analysis and comparison can also help to understand the choices we have with such an item design.

There are 5 magical uncommon greataxes in the game.

- Great Bloodaxe = 2-18 damages (average 10) when you're under 50% HP. 1-12 if you have more (average 6.5)
- Exterminator Axe = 2-18 damages (average 10) against plants, insects, small creatures. 1-12 against every other creatures (average 6.5)
- Doom Axe = 1-12 damages (average 6.5), but the target cannot regain HP and undead have disadvantage against the wielder.
- +1 Great Axe = constant 2-13 damages (average 7,5) + 5% to hit.

This is our choices if we're playing with greataxes.
=> 1 of them are "reward but only under HP condition"
=> 2 of them are "reward but only against specific creatures" ((there aren't a lot of undead in act 1 and many creatures don't even try to heal)
=> only 1 of them have decent and constant bonuses.

Allow me to doubt that most players would find those choices absolutely exciting.

But obviously, no one should play with greataxes considering how bad they are so let's have a look at greatswords...

- Everburn blade = constant 3-16 damages (average 9,5)
- Greatsword +1 and Sussur Greatsword = constant 3-13 damages (average 8) + 5% to hit (sussur is just a blue rather than green +1 greatsword)
- Githyanki Greatsword = 3-16 damages (average 9,5) when you're under 50% HP. 2-12 if you have more (average 7)
- Sword of Justice = 3-13 damages (average 8) + 5% to hit + a spell that gives the wielder +2AC once/battle.

=> 3 (4) of them have decent to good constant bonuses.
=> 1 of them is a "reward under HP condition" that is not better than another one.

Sword of Justice is definitely an improvement compared to other +1 greatsword. The Everburn blade deals constant and high damage.
Personnal opinion : it's good to have to choose between more bonuses or more damages. Except for "role play" or "gameplay" purpose, Greataxes and the Githyanki Greatsword are mostly useless.

Then we could also think about items like the reworked (I think) Dragon's Grasp and Firestocker (deals +1D4 fire damages against burning creatures).
It means that to have your 1D4 damage : you have to spend an action and deal damages, then have "the chance" to burn your target and deal damages... And then IF your target is still alive, your bonus will be usefull.
It's a lot of ressources and a lot of "chance to have" before eventually have a 1D4 damage boost...


I won't ever argue that some players like being challenged by their items (i.e survive under 50% hp), that some like keeping a few weapons in their bags to switch when they face some creatures (I also like it sometimes, but in exemple to fight dragons... not "insects") and that some like also gameplay variation depending their items.

But ALL RPGs I can think of reward the player by giving him "better" items. Better in terms of damages, in terms of versatility, in terms of constant bonus and variety ,...
A LOT of BG3's items (especially in patch 7) firstly add "gameplay variations" and often nothing more for 25 hours.

This break some "code" of what looting is imo and according to me, it also break the appeal of looting.

I like to choose between various interresting bonuses but in BG3, I often have the feeling that I'm choosing between a gameplay or another, a condition or another, a negative effect or another rather than between interresting bonuses.

Ofc I'm not saying everything is bad. There are many items I find very interresting.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/03/22 08:43 AM.

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Can you still swap your equipped items freely while in combat? If so, having a plethora of equipment pieces with situation-dependent effects is yet another reason why it should cost some type of resources to swap equipment in combat (preferably 1 weapon swap per turn and you can't change your armor/accessories).

Else the issue shown with shields - where ranged characters can freely swap weaponsets to get the benefit of both their bow and shield every turn for free - is vastly expanded via all the possible weapon+armor+accessory effects. This encourages tedious gameplay where you constantly change your equipped inventory possibly multiple times per turn.

mrfuji3 #811155 07/03/22 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Can you still swap your equipped items freely while in combat? If so, having a plethora of equipment pieces with situation-dependent effects is yet another reason why it should cost some type of resources to swap equipment in combat (preferably 1 weapon swap per turn and you can't change your armor/accessories).

Else the issue shown with shields - where ranged characters can freely swap weaponsets to get the benefit of both their bow and shield every turn for free - is vastly expanded via all the possible weapon+armor+accessory effects. This encourages tedious gameplay where you constantly change your equipped inventory possibly multiple times per turn.

Yes, you can still do it for free.

EDIT : No, it's a full action

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/03/22 07:38 AM.

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Maximuuus #811165 07/03/22 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Can you still swap your equipped items freely while in combat? If so, having a plethora of equipment pieces with situation-dependent effects is yet another reason why it should cost some type of resources to swap equipment in combat (preferably 1 weapon swap per turn and you can't change your armor/accessories).

Else the issue shown with shields - where ranged characters can freely swap weaponsets to get the benefit of both their bow and shield every turn for free - is vastly expanded via all the possible weapon+armor+accessory effects. This encourages tedious gameplay where you constantly change your equipped inventory possibly multiple times per turn.

Yes, you can still do it for free.

No currently swapping your gear out in battle costs either an action or a bonus action I don't recall which, you CAN how ever move an item from one person's inventory (such as a health potion) to another freely, but yeah I swapped out my weapon mid battle at one point realized I made a mistake and had to wait till that character's turn came around to switch it back

CMK #811184 08/03/22 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CMK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Can you still swap your equipped items freely while in combat? If so, having a plethora of equipment pieces with situation-dependent effects is yet another reason why it should cost some type of resources to swap equipment in combat (preferably 1 weapon swap per turn and you can't change your armor/accessories).

Else the issue shown with shields - where ranged characters can freely swap weaponsets to get the benefit of both their bow and shield every turn for free - is vastly expanded via all the possible weapon+armor+accessory effects. This encourages tedious gameplay where you constantly change your equipped inventory possibly multiple times per turn.

Yes, you can still do it for free.

No currently swapping your gear out in battle costs either an action or a bonus action I don't recall which, you CAN how ever move an item from one person's inventory (such as a health potion) to another freely, but yeah I swapped out my weapon mid battle at one point realized I made a mistake and had to wait till that character's turn came around to switch it back

Oh yes ! you're right I just re-checked ! it cost a full action.

I was sure I tried but I've probably got confused between my multiple playthrough.
Full action required to change/equip a weapon in combats. Good news.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/03/22 07:36 AM.

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Maximuuus #811187 08/03/22 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CMK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Can you still swap your equipped items freely while in combat? If so, having a plethora of equipment pieces with situation-dependent effects is yet another reason why it should cost some type of resources to swap equipment in combat (preferably 1 weapon swap per turn and you can't change your armor/accessories).

Else the issue shown with shields - where ranged characters can freely swap weaponsets to get the benefit of both their bow and shield every turn for free - is vastly expanded via all the possible weapon+armor+accessory effects. This encourages tedious gameplay where you constantly change your equipped inventory possibly multiple times per turn.

Yes, you can still do it for free.

No currently swapping your gear out in battle costs either an action or a bonus action I don't recall which
Equipping item costs Action ...

Switching between meele and Ranged weapon costs nothing ...

If you have Shield equipped you have AC bonus no matter what (m/r) weapon you are curently holding.
If you are not proficient with shield tho you get disadvantage to every roll you make.

There still is a reason for ranged weapon using characzers to swap back to meele and that is Attack of Opourtunity ... wich works for meele only.

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
a deeper analysis and comparison
Problem i have with your analysis is that it isnt objective ...

For example:
You claim that Everburning Blade gives you "constant bonus" ...
But that bonus only saves you single Bonus Action ... wich is mostly wasted anyway ... also that sword lack versatility of others since no matter what you only have Fire bonus damage, every single regular Greatsword is potentialy better against Fire resistant enemies since it can be poisoned and reach better results then.

For some rwason you never admit Sussur weapons have silence effects ...

And that statement about Axes is also wrong sinve Half Ocs are effectively tripling their damage when crit with Greataxe while they only get +1,5x bonus with Greatswords.


Thats why i say you are only telling us your opinion ... it doesnt really matter how did you get it.

//Edit:
Also you cant really measure silence or AC bonus since their value depends on who are you fighting ... that is why i said there is no clear way to tell wich item is "better"

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/03/22 08:10 AM.

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
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WebSpyder #811189 08/03/22 08:25 AM
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+1D4 fire damage whatever the situation is what I call a "constant" bonus. I could have used another word, maybe. That is objective.
About resistance you're right but it's true for every weapons.

To say that it's better to spend a bonus action (to dip or to coat it) is subjective and depend the situation but I agree with one thing : considering poison there's less versatility. This is also objective.
(note that the Everburn Blade can be coated with the Wyvern's poison though. Who knows if it's intended or not...).

It doesn't change that you often have to compare the conditions/negative effects/ and the "gameplay consequences" (Rewards 'if', rewards with possible punishment, rewards for a few hours/minutes) rather than being focussed on the bonuses themselves and how they'll allow you to freely fine-tune your characters.


As I said in the other thread, the tooltip of Sussur does not talk about silencing effects (after I checked, there's a small line in the description, but it's not written that you have a chance to silence your ennemies for 1 turn).
So it's definitely another good weapon imo and you can be foccused on bonuses to compare this one with the sword of justice, the Everburn blade and a few other.

Don't get me wrong, despite trying to do an (uncomplete as you showed) objective analysis, I totally agree that what a "better" bonus is is subjective (silencing ? +2AC once/combat ? More constant damage but less versatility?).
But it's better in my opinion when it's a free of constraints player choice. If there's sometimes a few constraints (I'm absolutely ok with it if it's not a huge part of looting), the items should in my opinion be objectively better.

Half Orcs are not in the game yet so I don't know why I should talk about them. Never heard about your x3 and x1,5. Can you give me a link please ? A rule I'd like to know smile

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/03/22 10:14 AM.

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Maximuuus #811202 08/03/22 10:41 AM
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Sure:
Quote
Savage Attacks
When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you can roll one of the weapon’s damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit.
Source: https://www.dndbeyond.com/races/half-orc

And its not "x1.5" ... i said "+1.5x". wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/03/22 10:43 AM.

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
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Oh okay, you meant that with a greataxe they throw another D12 on a crit while they only throw an additionnal D6 with a greatsword.


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Yup ...
Gets even more interesting with every stack of Brutal Critical from Barbarian. smile

(Exactly same effect ... and as far as i know, they stack :3 )
On level 13 (if that will be included obviously) it would be 5d12 if i didnt forget something. laugh
Quite the difference from 7d6 that you will get from Sword. smile


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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