Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Why I Want More D&D 5e Rules

Thrown Improvised Weapons = 20 feet/ max 60 with Disadvantage. 1d4+1 damage at most with 2d4+1 crit. Again, makes sense once Luring Song is no longer working to then fly away and throw rocks, but when first attacking, they should swarm with claw and club.

I sometimes wonder if they are planning to do these things later, and I sure hope so. We know that they SAID Difficulty settings will be added, so maybe there will be a Core setting that has harpies acting more like genuine harpies. Maybe they're just testing other potential difficulty settings they want to create. Maybe. Hopefully.

Another potential example of D&D 5e proper race/monster stats tossed out the window and ignored:

Skickpit gives you wyvern poison if you help him. He makes it clear he was going to use it on Magmar and Pistle, the two duergar abusing him.

Wyvern poison does 7d6 damage with a Constitution DC of 15 to resist - taking half damage. So, at the most, it does 42 damage. Stoneguard might have maybe 36 HP. So, even if full damage was done to Magmar and Pistle, they wouldn't die. Why?

Because duergar are resistant to poison. On top of that, they get advantage on poison Saving Throws. So, using wyvern poison against a duergar is not likely going to even come close to killing them. Might make 'em sick, but kill them? No.

Duergar gets +2 Constitution, so likely a +4 or +5 at least to Constitution Saves. This PLUS they get advantage on poison Saves means a very likely chance that they will resist the poison and take only half damage. Since they are not only likely to take half damage because they will probably make the roll, they are also resistant already, meaning the damage will be cut in half again.

So, even half of 42 is 21. Half again, if they succeed in the savings throw, would be like 10 damage. And that's IF they took full, max damage.

So, either Skickpit is an idiot and knows nothing about duergar, OR Larian is ignoring poison resistance. Either way, there's nothing to tell you, the player, that this was a really dumb thing for Skickpit to do.

A small, non-cutscene dialogue could fix this. Nature roll DC 10 fails. You know nothing. Succeeds. You say, "Duergar are resistant to poison. The fool gnome must not have realized this. The chances of killing a duergar with wyvern poison is very slim to none. Oh well. At least I get to reap the benefits of his stupidity."

Maybe the poison works differently when its getting to your system through a wound ... and when you digest it.

Honestly this starts to feel like nitpicking anything so you can complain. :-/
DM said he managed to poison them, deal with it.

Lol. Maybe a super strong batch of wyvern poison?

Nope, because you can't use it that effectively.

Anyway, not nitpicking. It's legit pointing out flaws. Makes no sense to try to poison a poison resistant enemy. Skickpit is either stupid, which is entirely possible, or Larian has failed to think this through because duergar aren't being created per actual duergar characteristics.

I don't use poison much in the game. Anyone try to use poison on duergar in combat? Do you know? Are they resistant?

But, you know what? Maybe you're right, Ragnarok. Maybe who cares? Maybe I should stop DMing and be a player. 🤪

DM says, "Magmar has a difficiency. Skickpit knows it. Shut up and play the game."

Me the player, [laughs], "Okay. Okay. I'm just saying."

DM. "DMs make sucky players. Technical. Always pointing out flaws because they know too many stats and rules. You want a reason? Here. Magmar was tortured by mind Flayers. During said torture and experiments, he developed a weakness to poison. Now, unlike other duergar, he's not only NOT resistant, he's weak to it. There. Shut up."

GM4Him falls silent, put in his place. 😳

Did you even notice that he is a slave?
Do you really expect him to have tons of potential weapons and substances prepared to use against them?

Hells, even if he would only give them shit it would be worth a try.

I haven't experienced this whole exchange in-game because I have never actually gotten to the underdark. The one time I actually managed to get through the underground thing beneath the goblin fortress, I couldn't figure out how to get through there and into the underdark proper, and frankly hearing about things like the Bullette fight have made me really not want to bother. So I don't know the entire context of the situation. If Duergar are vulnerable to poison and in D&D rules they shouldn't be, then yeah, that's not good at all and it is emblematic of a larger issue. But if it's simply a case of a character not knowing that his plot wouldn't work, then I think that's actually kinda fun.

Numbers are abstractions that exist for the benefit of the players, and is not something that is known to the characters in character. A gnome wouldn't know "this poison deals 7d6 Poison damage", he'd know "this poison is a very lethal poison".

Furthermore, if he is even knowledgeable about dwarves, he wouldn't know that "Dwarves have Resistance to Poison damage", he's know "Dwarves have strong constitution and are likely survive lesser poisons".

What do you give somebody who might survive a weak poison? You give them the very lethal poison.

Agreed.

Imagine looking at slaves and calling them stupid for using whatever resources they had to escape torture.

And yes, they should be resistant ...
Based on that being litteraly mentioned in Path notes:

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=807744#Post807744

Ah. Good. Great. Then Skickpit is just an idiot who doesn't know anything about dwarves, one of the most common races in D&D history ever.

I suppose one can argue that he's a slave and is just desperate and using whatever he has at his disposal in the hopes of killing Magmar. I suppose one could assume that he's been poisoning Magmar little by little to soften up his constitution and now he's about to lay on the big stuff.

As I said above, perhaps it is just a matter of me being a DM. There's nothing worse than being a DM and playing D&D with a player who was/is a DM, always challenging you on everything.

So, you know what? I'm good. It's all good.

You know, that's exactly how I picture you.

JK

JK

I totally agree with you GM4Him.

Ragnarok talking about "immersion" it's hypocrisis.
Firstly "immersion" and "realism" are two different things.
Secondly, in the definition of "immersion" of Ragnarok, we could kill LOT OF THINGS with just ONE HIT cause damn one cut froma sword or one shot from an arrow is enough to kill a lot of people.

So screw your damn "immersive" harpies who throw rocks cause they have "thumbs"...

It's a game and yeah, the gameplay of BG3 is crappy as hell.
Saying otherwise is pure fanboyism (and a bad one).

If an unkown developpers did the exact same game without BG licence, people would have be "meh" some goods things, lot of bad things. It's a "meh" game, unbalanced, some shitty dialogues, etc etc.

Don't doubt your opinion just because after 2 years 90% of the BG3 forum are non-objectives fans of Larian/BG/DD2 all mixed in a disgusting cocktail.

Because in the "immersive" world of Ragnarok, Dragons would throw mountains rocks from the sky and kill all your party in one shot cause... they have thumbs and they have wings.... and they are smaaaaaart.

This kind of comments are just like this game, "meh" at best, "crap" to be honest.

PS : harpies looks like to be super smart and slaves dumbs ? Why ? Brains are in wings ? No ? Who cares ! Let's say no sense and defend Larian by all means !

To kinda go along with your comments, Zefhyr, harpies ARE fairly unintelligent. An Intelligence Score of 7 (-2) does not indicate that they are super tactical.

That said, because I know I'll hear this argument, not all harpies have to be Intelligence 7. Maybe there're smarter harpies somewhere who think, "Hey. We have wings. Let's fly and throw rocks instead of getting up close and attacking people with our clubs and claws."

Whatever. The point is that SO many creatures in BG3 seem to be special like that. None act the way their race is designed, and THAT is my main point. SO many things are not normal based on established lore and stats. Thus, the game doesn't seem really like D&D at all or like Forgotten Realms. Again, for those of us who have played CRPGs like Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and even the old Pool of Radiance games, BG3 seems like a totally different world with totally different monsters and totally different LOTS of things. It is foreign to me.

Is it fun? Yeah. Sure. I wouldn't still be out here if I didn't enjoy the game. I have to keep saying this because people seem to think I hate the game as is. No. Don't hate it. Love it, actually. Addicted to it. Obviously. Wouldn't be out here if I wasn't.

But it is totally foreign. It kinda looks like a Forgotten Realms game. It kinda seems like it WANTS to be a Forgotten Realms game. But it doesn't act like one because there are just too many abnormal things about it.

Harpies are just yet another example added to the Phase Spiders, Intellect Devourers, Wood Woads, Mud Mephits, and SO Much more.

Well this never was question about intelligence or tactics ... just common sense.

Please, name me single animal that have functional wings and dont use them for hunt.

And by functional i mean they fly ...
Meaning excluding penguins (who actualy also use their wings to hunt, since that is what give them their speed and agility under water ) ... ostrich (dunno i gues they dont ) ... and similar non-flying birds.

I dunno, I feel as though after this amount of time, the most enduring and continuing presences that remain active are the folks who are openly quite critical of the game's many issues, but who remain invested enough to still hope for improvement.

That said, let's try not to invoke any further us-them or otherwise combative attitudes by talking down at those who are less critical; fans are allowed to be fans, after all. (Though I venture that those who don't see any issues with the game as it is being presented likely don't have too much to add to the suggestions section of the forums as a result...)

To ragnarok - I think it's more about the idea that, as monsters, they will be naturally inclined to play to their strengths when hunting, and that means utilising their existing natural weapons - it's literally what they are there for. those talons are not little budgie claws - they are talons capable of cutting a peasant in half at a swipe, on a good day (or bad day for said peasant); they are, or should be, 100% absolutely more preferable to hucking random rocks they pick up off the ground.

Now, in a proper system, this is because they can actually gods-damned fly... so should spend most of their non-active turn time flying, out of danger from most normal creatures, yet in range to swoop in and strike. On their turn, they attempt to charm their potential prey, and watch to see who falls under their spell. They maintain their song as long as they have a victim snared (it only takes their bonus action to do this), and on each subsequent turn they fly in, attack with their talons, and wing back to safety if it seems prudent to back off again - the charmed target is incapacitated by the song and so A) will not take opportunity attacks against the charming harpy when she leaves their range (they couldn't anyway - charmed condition forbids it), and B) as part of the luring song, they do not get a repeat on their saving throw when the charming harpy damages them.

This is their natural hunting tactic, and it's very effective as long as they have the number advantage on their potential prey... throwing rocks is not.

This is an interesting point. Like the rules of mathematics, a game has a set of rules that players rely on to come up with plans of execution.

D&D has its established rules, definitions, history, etc. I'm imagining a situation where an author publishes a math book where the addition symbol (+) were replaced by @ and the division symbol (/) replaced by #. People new to mathematics would learn the new symbols and not know the difference but for those of us who have been using math for many years it would seem *almost* insulting. Even worse if the "+" and "/" symbols were redefined to perform some other operations.

So, perhaps if just one harpy in the group acted exceptionally, and was illustrated in a way that distinctly identified that harpy as "the odd one", maybe that could be worked in...no? I think an exceptional harpy would be better off featured as a boss fight, though.

As I type this I realize that this is the "football" argument GM4Him made some time ago. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing...people forget without reminders...

Exactly my point ...

Yes i know they have claws ... and yes i know what are claws usualy used for.
But they also have hands ... capable of griping.
And most importantly they have wings!

I dont mind if they are using their natural weapons, quite the oposite ... i just want to use them all and in some way that would make sense, not just coventiently fly towards player weapon and then stay there and smile until he strike her down. :-/

This is the most important part in my eyes.
And yes, in such case i would support such tactics with all my voice.

Well ...
Maybe i once again didnt expressed myself properly ... i didnt want to imply it should be their "main" tactics ...
But i still see it as viable option ...

They could aswell simply use it "when nobody is under their spell, so swooping to attack with claws would be unnecesary dangerous".

And I agreed with you, Ragnarok. I could see a harpy using the throwing rock thing as a retreat. They start with their more standard swoop down, swarm and attack in melee combat, but as the party is winning, THEN maybe the last one or two retreat and throw rocks as a supplement.

But those rocks shouldn't cause 8 damage. 1d4 Improvised Weapons damage makes sense as a "I'm retreating" weapon.

What I don't like is that the rock throwing bit is their primary weapon of choice, and it does 8 damage on a regular basis. It's their primary tactic for pretty much all but 1 of the harpies. Only 1 flies down and tries to kill you and the boy at close range. We should see all four flying in and swarming right away. Then, after two or three die, the survivor(s) then flee and throw rocks to try to ward you off.

And another thing. Why NOT allow enemies to retreat/flee combat? Once you've beaten them to a certain point, let the survivors flee if they can get a certain distance away or something. Do all enemies have to fight to the death? If we can flee, why not let the enemies flee? It has been done in previous games. It can be done here pretty easily.

Nope ...
See the difference?

You say: swoop > fight in meele > when they start loosing retreat ...
Niara say: swoop > hit > retreat > repeat

And THAT (Niara version) is actualy good and interesting hunting tactics used by many real animals, wich are clearly much dummer than harpies.

Totally agreed on this one!

I would love this ...

But i would aply it on every "curently not fighting NPC aswell" ...
Examples: Gnomes in Grymforge ... Druids in Grove ... etc.

They could either flee, or run for reinforcements ... based on situation.