Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;)

Swen need to admit to himself that he could make mistakes and he can be wrong. just as if everyone can make mistakes and can be wrong as well. on topic.. a jaw slider will probably fixed the issue imo? SLIDER everyone wins? folks who want man jaws go ahead.. those who want V shaped jaws would be happy.

Yep. Sliders. That's it.

Nothing to see here.

I've seen a notification for a new post ITT like 4 times, yet each time I just see the above post with an updated timestamp. So I'm just making this post to hopefully make that bug (and/or deleted-and-then-reposted post) stop happening.

Mister Fuji...welcome back!

No, but, then again I (still) don't expect them to do much about this.

https://www.enworld.org/attachments/kok_elves-jpg.16358/

The facial hair is something of a no-no, but, otherwise...not bad.

OK. I'm going to stir up some backlash here, I just know it, but it's my opinion.

I'm really struggling with elves in Pathfinder. They're freaking me out. They have soul-less eyes that seem almost like insect eyes, and their ears are TOO long and pointy. They almost like like they have antennae. I just... I don't like it.

Say what you want about the humans with pointy ears in BG3, they are at least attractive looking elves. The elves in the Pathfinder games just look too alien to me.

Especially Ember in WotR. shudder shudder. That girl scares me. She's like Sabrina from Pokemon. "Play with me..." in that creepy Japanese demon possessed doll kind of way. And I created my own elf with teal colored eyes, and every time I pull her up on the screen, her expression and eyes are as frightening as the demons my characters are fighting on the streets.

I don't know. Like I said. I'm trying to like the look of the elves in Kingmaker/WotR, but... I just... I just can't.

Pathfinder Elves:

I had no idea. I'm new to the lore. Geez. Aliens? Weird.

The Pathfinder elves are at least less off-putting than the Pathfinder gnomes, who seem like their torsos would just collapse like a house of cards under the weight of their cranium. I know that their artstyle is cartoony (both in the source material and in the Owlcat games), but still, blergh.

As for the BG3 elves, they do all lack the tilted eyes and the sharper (sylvan, as they would point out) features that they're supposed to have. The NWN1 portraits were probably the most true to what they should look like as far as adaptations go. The elf male head 2 is probably the most acceptable one from the existing pick, the jawline on the rest of them is a bit too much.

BTW, was the decision to combine the sun and moon elves into one subrace made by Larian, or is it a WotC thing?

I do agree on pretty much everything you've said, Brainer. The gnomes are ridiculous in Pathfinder. What's with the super long eyebrows? Weird.

No. I do like the deep gnomes in BG3 better. Much more realistic and less weird and cartoony. Yes, the elves and drow could look a bit more elven. I mean, they do look a bit too human, it's true.

As for the moon elf/sun elf subrace combine, I'm fairly certain that's a Larian thing, but I'm not 100% on that - just like the whole splitting the drow into their own race and their subraces are based on whether they follow Lolth or not???

That's not a subrace. That's a culture and belief system. But... well... whatever. I guess the red eyes are now a Lolth only thing???

And when, pray tell, did that happen in the entire history of the drow?

Sun and Moon Elves = High Elves. That's an official lore thing from WoTC. Larian has nothing to do with it.


It still smashes well with Drow lore. There were always individuals and groups among the Drow who sought redemption and the removal of the divine curse from Corellon. I am not up to date with the more recent novels, but I seem to recall some fort of blessing from Eilistraee that touched some drows, but not all of them.

I am kind of upset we don't have Vhaeraun is a deity to pick for the drow. Granted, with Larian's approach towards the deity pick being that every one has at least a unique option available somewhere, the list growing even bigger might get out of hand. Still, the elven pantheon being only Corellon, and drowish Lolth and Eilistraee is not particularly impressive. Where's Sehanine Moonbow and the rest of the Seldarine? I guess they mostly picked everyone's patron deities and a handful of the universal gods with the more clear portfolios. Sune sure is missing, though, which is weird considering the raunchy tone they're unafraid to take...

A lot of deities disappeared during the Second Sundering or became aspects of other deities. Vhaeraun for instance became a servant power to Lolth, abandoning his former rebellious aspect. So it doesnt make much sense for him to be included.

Didn't know that, thank you. I am still a little foggy on most of the post-Spellplague lore, having spent most of my time with 3e/3.5e. I do know of the Lathander-Amaunator-Lathander shuffle, about Bhaal coming back, Mystra dying (again) and somebody restoring her / claiming her portfolio (again), but I am definitely in need of some educational reading to catch up in many aspects. Like how I am still iffy on how the succubi/incubi are no longer considered tanar'ri anymore, or what is currently happening with the drow and the general rewriting of all the previously "evil" races.

Yeah, my mind is hazy too when it comes to 4 edition lore. About this new and very timely revisiting of the idea of "sentient but essentially evil races" (which is a heritage of colonization and white supremacy in DnD and in pulp-fiction fantasy in general) I don't think one should worry about in the context of this game, as Larian obv made drows and goblins evil by nature, following the old approach.

Sun Elves and Moon elves are certainly at least as different as 'seldarine' and 'lolth-sworn' drow. culturally as well as physically. It is weird that they are lumped together like they are.

Drow and goblins as evil by nature being the 'old approach' should come with an asterisk next to it IMO, as it evolved in 3rd edition and was present through 4th and 5th. I got to look at the 3rd edition style guide and from what I remember of it, the powers that be were pretty contemptuous of the idea of 'good orcs' etc then (despite being a thing that existed prior) And of course the novel series you refer to spacehamster95, was basically concepted as a way to cut out the diversity in drow culture as it was viewed as off brand for the drow and diluted the 'RA Salvatore' drow. In 4th iirc Chris Perkins had all references to good drow and Eilistraee/Vhaeraun possibly coming back removed from the Menzoberranzan sourcebook. The current 5e drow and goblins is very much a product of WoTC seeing the 'old school' drow orcs, goblins etc and deciding that complex nuanced cultures didn't sell well enough with their target audience and giving them the axe for the better part of three editions, then going back again when the wind changed.

So I'm not so sure Larian is using 'old school' drow. My impression is that BG III development very much happened in a transitioning period in regards to the drow lore. Recall the large retcon dump for drow lore that happened as sort of a tie in with the latest Salvatore book and the awful Dark Alliance reboot. Some of the blurbs sounded very familiar to what we have in BGIII. A lot of it's language- the whole 'lolthsworn-drow come from Menzoberranzan' thing, Lolth being described as a 'cult'. They are holding to the art shift that happened partway into 5e where drow are now always portrayed as grey-skinned in art, and the idea of allegiance to Lolth affecting your physical appearance which is relatively new as well(eye color in BG, weird tattoo things in Dark Alliance). Right now they are portrayed in-game in a more or less familiar way, but will that hold as we reach Baldur's Gate, as we meet non-absolute, and/or non-Lolth worshipping drow? Vhaeraun mentioned earlier is pretty much the exact opposite of his portrayal prior to him getting axed in 3rd. I can imagine stuff like that would be a bit jarring for vets to see if Larian explored it more in depth, same with if they decide to devote more time and dialogue to explaining the eye thing.

I think there's some cause for legitimate concern that the drow will feel weird and incongruous depending on how Larian handles things. This could go for a lot of things. Imagine in Haer'Dalis shows up in a cameo, but he looks like a 5e Tiefling. 5e is a different beast than 2nd or third. Right now we are still just romping around fighting monsters in the wilderness, so we are insulated somewhat from the developments and retcons over the intervening editions.

Drows being evil by nature is not a third edition thing. You can trace it back to Advanced DnD, from their very inception. If you look at old art from that period depicting the Drows, you can see that they manifest a lot of the anxieties of the 70-80ies (POC, violent matriarchal society, etc).