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The point of this thread is to illustrate the strengths and weaknesses of the various classes based on D&D 5e and how they are meant to interact with one another as a team - because D&D is a team-based game. It's not meant to be played solo.
Let's start with Cleric.
Basic Cleric is meant to be a Tank, Buffer and Healer. Usually able to wear heavy armor and wield shields, they standardly start with AC 18 - this with chain mail and shield or scale mail, Dex +2 and shield. So, even at level 1, they are hard to hit. This is so that they can focus on buffing spells and healing even if enemies are surrounding them. They are the best healers in the game with lots more healing prowess than any other class, and clerics are one of the only classes that can revivify and raise dead. Yes, no one else in EA so far should be able to do these things. Only Cleric, Paladin and Artificer can use Revivify, and only Cleric Paladin and Bard can Raise Dead.
What's bad about clerics? What balances them out? Weapon proficiency sucks. It's not the worst, but it is rather limited. They also don't usually get multiple attacks even at higher levels, not like fighters, paladins and rangers. Their spells can be powerful, but even they are not standardly area effect fireball-like powers. Basically, they aren't meant to really be damage dealers. They are meant to be Tanks, Healers and Buffers, and they are vital to survival since they are one of the few who can put you back into the fight even if you die. No cleric usually means no resurrection, and you have to make do with lots of potions and such to stay alive. Oh, and they typically suck at stealth (Trickery Domain being an exception.)
Clerics are also limited by spell slots, and unlike wizards, they don't even get an ability to let them recover spell slots during short rest. This is made up for, though, by providing them with Channel Divinity which allows them to use a special power or two which IS recharged by a short rest. This is often the power to turn undead, destroy them or depending on the domain, the ability to heal a bit more or Invoke Duplicity or Cloak of Shadows or Destructive Wrath.
How are clerics, therefore, nerfed in BG3? Potions galore that can be used as Bonus actions which is more effective than cleric spells. They can also be thrown to heal others, so even Healing Word is made virtually worthless because of potions. Anyone can use Revivify scrolls. Anyone can use cleric scrolls to cast their spells and buff others (last I checked anyway). Anyone can boost their AC with height, making them tanks, and since stealth is so broken, clerics are even more lame because they can't effectively use one of the biggest gimmicks in the game. So, they wind up being one of the most useless classes in BG3 because lots of other things replace the things that make them most valuable. The only real thing that sets them apart in BG3 is their Channel Divinity. That's pretty much all they are good for.
I don't have time now, but I'll follow up with more of an in depth on each Domain for Cleric; their pluses and minuses in 5e and how they differ in BG3.
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I am going to have to disagree slightly in the fact that I find a Life Domain Cleric VERY useful, they are such, because when they heal they do bonus healing which means I have to use potions less often and of course their channel divinity can sway a battle from near doom to success, but yeah I find the other domains kind of Meh in BG3
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Throwing potions is the biggest travesty imo. I mean, if they want to come up with a holy healing grenade fine... but keep potions as potions.
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Of the 3 domains currently provided only 1 can use heavy armor, and of the 7 in the PHB only 4 can, so just over half. Your assignation of the "tank" role to cleric is just that, your assignation. They certainly CAN be played that way but by no means is it "meant to." Trickery domain clerics are closer to rogues and Light are closer to mages. If you do want to infer what is intended however, you can simply follow the PHB suggestion that wisdom then charisma are the primary attributes for a cleric and then utilize the standard array. You won't have a cleric with a +2 DEX modifier in most cases though. Also, as you want to lean on starting equipment to infer intent, then clerics are meant to value STR over DEX as well based on their starting weapons.
All that said... classes, in general, are nerfed of their individual specialties by Larian's implementation of the game world. It is pretty clear from their previous games they dislike class based systems and they are making every effort to eliminate class from this one too.
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Of the 3 domains currently provided only 1 can use heavy armor, and of the 7 in the PHB only 4 can, so just over half. Your assignation of the "tank" role to cleric is just that, your assignation. They certainly CAN be played that way but by no means is it "meant to." Trickery domain clerics are closer to rogues and Light are closer to mages. If you do want to infer what is intended however, you can simply follow the PHB suggestion that wisdom then charisma are the primary attributes for a cleric and then utilize the standard array. You won't have a cleric with a +2 DEX modifier in most cases though. Also, as you want to lean on starting equipment to infer intent, then clerics are meant to value STR over DEX as well based on their starting weapons.
All that said... classes, in general, are nerfed of their individual specialties by Larian's implementation of the game world. It is pretty clear from their previous games they dislike class based systems and they are making every effort to eliminate class from this one too. That said, the ability to inscribe their holy symbol on their shield combined with the starting proficiency in medium armor means that most clerics (Dex +1 or +2) will have level-one ACs of 16-18, which is still not bad. At least partially a tank. Especially in BG3 which I imagine, even in Full Release, won't care about free hands for spellcasting.
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This is the point where this topic lost any seriousness it could potentialy achieve ... Look i know you think that you are experienced Dungeon Master ... But even if that would be true ... that dont make your reading of rules pure gold. :-./ If i may suggest something here ... This topic would be much better as some kind of "builds i would like to play, but game makes them uneffective" than "is meant to be". .:-/ An if i may not ... well feel free to simply ignore me.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 16/03/22 06:46 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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Wow. Ever here of generalization, guys? My first post is generalizing what the role of a cleric is from a broad standpoint. I said I'd go into the domains later. Of course there are variations. Domains create a variety of cleric types.
Note the main point. Most standard/general cleric abilities are made meaningless in BG3 by items and a lack of limitations and restrictions on other classes. The point is, if you don't stick more to the 5e rules, you undermine the importance of various classes. I'm trying to point out just how undermined the cleric class is in general.
Why am I doing this? Because if they aren't implementing classes well now, giving them true meaning and purpose, there are a TON more that are going to be a huge waste of time.
Here are the Cleric Domains. If they can't give true value to the ones they have in game, then how will these be valuable at all?:
Arcana Ambition City Death Forge Grave Knowledge Life - in game Light - in game Nature Order Protection Solidarity Strength Tempest Trickery - in game War Zeal Blood
Not to mention: Twilight Unity Order Peace
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I will say that the cleric in my tabletop game dishes out Lesser Restoration pretty often but I’ve never needed to use it in BG3. Is anyone getting any mileage out of it?
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I will say that the cleric in my tabletop game dishes out Lesser Restoration pretty often but I’ve never needed to use it in BG3. Is anyone getting any mileage out of it? Not a single use because they aren't doing diseases, blindness, deafness, paralysis or poison as conditions.
Last edited by GM4Him; 16/03/22 09:57 AM.
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I will say that the cleric in my tabletop game dishes out Lesser Restoration pretty often but I’ve never needed to use it in BG3. Is anyone getting any mileage out of it? Not a single use because they aren't doing diseases, blindness, deafness, paralysis or poison as conditions. the one playthrough I could have used it on I did not have it prepared and that is: if you wait long enough and don't interrupt the argument between the Hag and Mayreena's brothers (in this case I had waited to visit that are till AFTER I had killed Nere) you will just find them dead in the spot where the argument took place. When you go to visit the hag, the subject of your tadpole comes up... if you strike a deal with her to try and remove the tadpole her price is one of your eyes which she plucks out of your head then kisses and places it back in... thus I was left partially blind (which had the effect of not having disadvantage on a certain check I think and inability to crit)... yeah I could have gone to camp switched out spells and taken care of it (or at least tried... not sure if lesser would have done the job... that might require greater), but I had done everything else you can do in early access, so there was little point...
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Well, since so far we only know that Player's Handbook subclasses will be added ... Shouldnt that list be a little shorter? Namely: Knowledge Life - in game Light - in game Nature Tempest Trickery - in game War //Edit: I will say that the cleric in my tabletop game dishes out Lesser Restoration pretty often but I’ve never needed to use it in BG3. Is anyone getting any mileage out of it? Oh yes ... You can help Pandirna with her legs problem ... You can help that gnome in Myconid village (she dont have entry on wiki ... and i dont remember her name) ... And i believe it can become quite usefull in fight against spectator. And acording to this topic on reddit ... it sounds like usefull spell against Hag aswell.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 16/03/22 10:46 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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I didn't have the PHB in front of me. Just listed the ones in the app I use. The app has every class, race, subrace, subclass, background, etc. even from other sources. Makes character creation a breeze and quite diverse... Lots of options to choose from.
You know, half the time I'm writing these posts, it's on my phone, on the go... And often I'm just going based on memory, so it's hard to always be super technical and exact... Trying to remember what's actual 5e and what isn't.
Cut me some slack. Sheesh.
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If the app in question is DnD beyond, then it's all legal 5e content. Otherwise, there are online resources you can use to look things up, though technically if they aren't affiliated with WOtC or DnD beyond they are infringing the game license if they contain non-srd content. It's a shame they only plan on doing PHB classes, I hold out hope they will do more after launch.
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Me neither ... You wouldnt probably believe it ... but i was siting in my dentist waiting room, writing it on my phone ... and this was my source: http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/cleric Also i didnt mean it as any demand ... Just poiting out wich are certainly relevant for this game ... nobody knows if Larian will implement any other. (In my honest opinion, most Cleric Subclasses sustain from different Channel Divinity spell ... everything else should be allready there.)
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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OK. First 3 domains will be the ones in BG3:
Life, Light, and Trickery
Life - BG3 actually has implemented this one well in terms of there is no difference between Tabletop and cRPG. The Life Domain is the Classic Cleric Domain, where you are the Tank, Healer, Buffer. So, I won't go into too much detail on this because I've already mentioned how BG3 kinda strips this Domain of its effectiveness. Yes, Disciple of Life does add a little extra boost to Healing Spells, and they will become more effective with higher level spell slots, but overall it's still not much more effective than potions that can be thrown across the board at allies. Think about it. The very basic Healing Potion provides 2d4+2 healing. That's 4-10 HP restored with a single potion. Cure Wounds is 1d8+Spellcaster Modifier. So, typically something like 5-12. With Life Domain, that's 7-14. So some buff but not much.
The real homebrew that makes this more effective in BG3 is that you can cast multiple spells in the same turn. So, in D&D 5e, you aren't supposed to be able to cast a Level 1 or higher spell and then cast a Bonus action spell as well. Meaning, in 5e, you are restricted from casting Cure Wounds AND Healing Word in the same round. You can cast a Cantrip as an Action and then a Bonus action like Healing Word, but you can't cast a Level 1 or higher spell as an Action and then Healing Word. So, Larian has offset the Healer Cleric nerf by allowing spellcasters to cast both a Level 1 or higher spell like Cure Wounds AND a Bonus spell like Healing Word in the same round. This does make the Healer Cleric more effective because they can heal 7-14 HP with Cure Wounds and then 7-10 HP using Healing Word. That IS much more effective than a single, basic potion.
Well then. What's the problem? The problem is that by allowing such a rule, now ALL spellcasters can cast Level 1 or higher spells AND Bonus action spells in the same turn. Why is that a problem? Wizard, Level 5 has Level 3 spells. He can now cast Fireball and blast an entire group of enemies doing 8d6 damage, even at point blank with enemies all around him. Then he can Misty Step as a Bonus action to get away and run an additional 30 feet to get even further away. Thus, the wizard is now OP. What once limited the wizard in that he had to choose between either using Misty Step or Fireball, he is now no longer limited in this way. He can do both.
What will this mean for later in the game? Imagine you are facing an enemy wizard at level 5 or higher. You win initiative and run up to him to try to prevent him from casting Fireball on your party. Only your fighter won initiative, so only your fighter gets up close. In RAW 5e, the wizard would likely Disengage and retreat, or use Misty Step and retreat, rather than cast Fireball because there's a good chance that if he doesn't that fighter is going to beat the living tar out of him on the next turn. Action Surge plus 2 Attacks already at Level 5 plus Menacing Attack or some other maneuver. Yeah. Wizard could die in a single round from a fighter moving into close range like that. So the AI would likely have the enemy wizard retreat, like he should, allowing his meat shields to rush in and keep the fighter at bay. This allows other characters, like your cleric, to do things like cast Silence, etc. to try to keep the wizard from hurling powerful spells at you and your party.
So, allowing Bonus + Level 1 or higher Action spells unbalances the entire system, and it's going to be a serious problem for later in the game. What this means is that either Larian has to go back to RAW 5e, and limit spellcasters to Cantrips + Bonus, and thus make clerics not as effective as Healers (barely better than potions), or they'll have to come up with another solution to try to prevent wizards and other spellcasters from becoming too OP. OR... which is entirely possible, they can just not do anything about it, and what you're going to have are super OP wizards teleporting everywhere on the map AND hurling high damage spells - which, to me, will be VERY frustrating. Imagine the Phase Spider Matriarch as a Level 5 or higher mage. Misty Step 30 feet away from enemies. Hurls Fireball. Boom! Party loses half their health. Party tries to Dash to the wizard. He Misty Steps again on round 2 and Fireballs or Lightning Bolts your party. Ugh! Forget Fighters. They'll never be effective against such an enemy, especially if they Misty Step to high ground for +2 AC AND they have Mage Armor enabled AND they use Blur or Mirror Image.
As far as scrolls go, I have heard that Larian does plan to eventually restrict scrolls to proper classes. This WILL make clerics more valuable than current. As it stands, because anyone can cast Revivify and Raise Dead and use any cleric scroll, no cleric is necessary. Between scrolls and potions and magic items, you can do everything a cleric can do as a Rogue, Warlock, Wizard, Fighter, etc. You can even Speak with Dead using the amulet (which is a Bard/Cleric spell only) and cast Bless with the staff you find in the Arcane Tower. I mean, there's pretty much nothing special about the cleric when you start adding all the weapons and items into the game.
So, my recommendation is to restrict the spells like 5e says to so wizards can't use Bonus Actions and Action Spells in the same round, and so Clerics can't cast both Cure Wounds and Healing Word in the same round. Restrict scrolls so only those classes that can cast Revivify and Raise Dead can actually cast them. Stop allowing throwing potions and limit it to using potions ONLY at melee range with your ally - meaning you have to get up close to Use Potion on a friend. This makes it so the Healing Word is MUCH more important and valuable, being able to heal someone 7-10 HP from a distance. Limit how many potions you can acquire as loot, forcing players to purchase more potions if they need them. Thus, adding value to the cleric healer. After all, if you have a cleric healer, you won't have to spend as much money on buying healing potions because THEY are more of a healer to you than potions. Certainly make it so players can purchase a ton of potions, but the point of this is to limit parties without healers so that they aren't AS capable of buying better weapons and armor because they have to focus some of their resources on buying healing potions. If you don't have a healer, you have to pay the price. This vastly increases the value of Shadowheart as a member of the party, or any other healer that you might make.
As for the items and weapons that provide cleric spells to anyone - like the Amulet of Voices which provides Speak with Dead to anyone who wears it, or the Bless Staff of Mystra (can't remember it's name) - I don't think they need to be removed or nerfed. Having an item or two that provides anyone with such abilities is fine as long as it's not overdone. Speak with Dead amulet is a good story item that would be a shame to remove from the game or nerf it so that only clerics or bards could use it. Weapons like these are okay and don't terribly offset the balance and are fun to have in the game, in my opinion. But, again, as long as they aren't overdoing it and providing a weapon or item that pretty much devalues all or most of the cleric's (or any class's) abilities that make them special. The problem I have currently with the items is that a LOT of them are negating the special-ness of the classes. I'm not suggesting they remove the items, but I am suggesting that they maybe tame them down a bit - spread them out so you don't find them so frequently.
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So, my recommendation is to restrict the spells like 5e says to so wizards can't use Bonus Actions and Action Spells in the same round, and so Clerics can't cast both Cure Wounds and Healing Word in the same round. Disagree with this!!!!! I love being able to cast misty step + a damage spell or a healing spell + a damage spell.
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Light - Mostly implemented the same as Tabletop. The main difference between Tabletop and BG3's Light Cleric is that Tabletop provides a limit on Warding Flare. In Tabletop, Warding Flare can only be done once per Wisdom Modifier (minimum 1) per long rest. So, if you have Wisdom 14 (+2), you can use Warding Flare 2 times a day. This prevents a major spamming of Warding Flare.
BG3 allows unlimited Warding Flare, at least according to the Character Creation screen. I haven't actually tried to use it, but I didn't see anything in the character creation screen that limited this ability. What Warding Flare does, in both TT and BG3 is it allows the Light Cleric to use a Reaction to impose Disadvantage upon an enemy that is attacking them within 30 feet of them. Without limitations, this ability makes the Light Cleric exceptionally hard to hit on a regular basis. They can use their Reaction to always hinder at least one enemy per round with Disadvantage. Now, this said, like I said, I never tested it. Maybe Larian does have something in place to limit this, and if they do, that's great, but if not, that's a bit too OP, in my opinion.
One of the main purposes, typically, of the Light Cleric is that they are Tanks and powerful spell damage dealers. Channel Divinity: Radiance of the Dawn, at level 2, provides them with the ability to use an Action and dispel all darkness, including magical, within 30 feet of you. Additionally, EACH hostile creature within 30 feet of you has to make a Con save or take 2d10 + Cleric Level Radiant Damage (half for successful roll). Only creatures with total cover are unaffected by this. Besides being tanks (Note: they aren't the best tanks, mind you, but they are pretty darn good ones partially BECAUSE of Warding Flare), they also deal some decent magical damage, being able to cast Burning Hands and Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray. They are also REALLY powerful against creatures of the night at Level 5 with Daylight - and unlike most clerics, they can actually cast Fireball. So, they are like cleric/mages, as if multiclassed with wizard or sorcerer.
What limits them? Medium Armor instead of heavy, thus making them not as effective as Life Clerics in terms of being a Tank with really high AC's. Their healing abilities aren't AS potent as Life Clerics, and so they aren't much better than potions in that regard.
Here's the problem in BG3: Much the same as Life Domain. Imagine a Light Cleric at Level 5. Let's say equipped with Half Plate and Dex +2. So, 17 AC. Add shield to reach 19 AC. Wins initiative. Casts Shield of Faith. Now 21 AC. Ah, but can also cast Fireball. Same turn. In Tabletop, they'd have to choose: Attack with Fireball and hit hard OR increase defense. Not both in one round. Thus, limiting to one or the other. Thus, not as OP as a cleric who can do both in one turn. Then, to add to this, unlimited Warding Flare makes it so that even if you do win initiative against them, they'll just impose a Disadvantage on your attack roll, making even 19 or higher rather difficult. Also, imagine instead that you do actually take off like 10 damage on the Light Cleric. On their turn, they cast Healing Word with Level 2 Spell Slot. 2d4+5ish HP healed. Virtually everything you did to them, they've now healed. Then they Fireball you. Or imagine lower level. You deal 10 damage, they heal 5 and Burning Hands you and everyone near you, or they win initiative, cast Shield of Faith, run up to you, and Burning Hands your entire party before you can even act once. Because they have 21 AC, your entire party tries to hit them but has a really hard time doing so because they have 21 AC. First person to try gets Disadvantage. Yeah... That's not an enemy I'd like to face, and if it's you who are the Light Cleric, you'll be the one dealing the punishment like an OP boss.
My suggestions: Limit Warding Flare (if it isn't already) per Tabletop rules, only allowing once per Wisdom Modifier (minimum 1) per long rest, and again limit to 5e rules for Bonus + Cantrip Action only, not Bonus + Action Spell of any kind.
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So, my recommendation is to restrict the spells like 5e says to so wizards can't use Bonus Actions and Action Spells in the same round, and so Clerics can't cast both Cure Wounds and Healing Word in the same round. Disagree with this!!!!! I love being able to cast misty step + a damage spell or a healing spell + a damage spell. You won't love it later when an evil lich or higher level cleric turns the tables on you. Well, at least I imagine you won't. It's all fun and games when YOU are the one with the OP abilities. It's not so fun when it's your enemy turning it against you. High volatility is what causes combat encounters to become quickly VERY unfun. Imagine a boss like the Hag only with the ability to cast Fireball or Lightning Bolt, or both. Wins initiative. Casts Fireball at your mage and entire party. Your spellcaster at Level 5 will likely only have about 30ish HP. One Fireball is 8d6 damage. Average Damage is 24. In one round, your mage is almost dead, as is half your party. But then, just to be a butt, she casts Misty Step to teleport 30 feet away and then runs 30 feet to position herself behind total cover. Thus, you aren't able to even hit her on your turn because she was able to Fireball you and teleport and run around a corner so you don't have line of sight. You try your best to move into position. Round 2, comes out of hiding and Fireballs you again. Then teleports and runs around a corner again into hiding. THESE are the kinds of things I'm afraid of happening in later game. You can't give spellcasters such free reign or they will obliterate you later. At low levels, 4 and under, spellcasters are weaker on purpose. It is to set the ground work for later levels. The issue, Icelyn, is that when you leave spellcasters less limited at lower levels, when they reach higher levels, those lack of restrictions suddenly turn into REALLY OP abilities. I'm telling you, wizards and other spellcasters are going to become insanely terrible at higher levels, turning all other classes into obsolete nobodies. Either that, or they're going to have to REALLY create a ton of MORE insane homebrew for the other classes to offset the spellcasters' insane spellcasting abilities.
Last edited by GM4Him; 16/03/22 03:54 PM.
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Trickery Domain - Again, mostly implemented per 5e Tabletop rules. Exception is Blessing of the Trickster lasts for 1 hour or until used again in Tabletop. BG3 requires Concentration, or it is cancelled when used again. Also, Invoke Duplicity still isn't implemented well. It is like Minor Illusion, which also doesn't work well. I still struggle to get Minor Illusion to distract enemies.
Anyway, Trickery Clerics are the stealthy, deceptive clerics. They CAN be tanks as well, but typically they focus on Dexterity, wear Leather armor (or other uninhibiting armor) so Stealth isn't inhibited, and they tend to be more ranged; hopping in and out of shadows like a rogue.
For the most part, this is done okay in BG3, but actually BG3 makes them less effective than Tabletop. Blessing of the Trickster being a Concentration ability means that Trickery Clerics can't use Shield of Faith in conjunction with Blessing of the Trickster. Also, BG3's janky bad stealth system makes Stealth checks virtually pointless anyway. If you're in the sight cone, you're pretty much spotted. It's really hard to stealth when in the sight cone. Period. But, that's kinda normal for Tabletop as well. If in line of sight, it's hard to stealth. However, the problem is that when NOT in line of sight, no roll is really necessary. So, if no roll is necessary, the need for Stealth Advantage is pretty much negated. Essentially, what I'm saying is, Blessing of the Trickster is practically useless in BG3. It is ONLY useful if you are going to stealth right into an enemy's sight cone, and even then you'd better get really lucky because chances are it'll do a Stealth check two or three times before you even get back to your turn. Then, to make it even more useless, you can't use Bless or Shield of Faith or ANY other concentration spell as long as you are using Blessing of the Trickster. Thus, one of the MAIN special abilities of the Trickster Cleric is severely hacked at the knees - partially because there is no time in the game, and partially because they've made it so it's Concentration to keep it up, and finally partially because Stealth in BG3 REALLY needs an overhaul so that it actually creates value for abilities like Blessing of the Trickster.
Then there's Invoke Duplicity. Essentially, this spell should create a little Familiar-like Minion for you to control. It is a PERFECT illusion of the caster, and it lasts for 10 rounds or until you lose your Concentration. Again, Concentration is required for Invoke Duplicity, not Blessing of the Trickster. This is important. Why? Because you can use Channel Divinity three times per short or long rest. This is a MAJOR Trickster Cleric mechanic. The Trickster Cleric should be able to cast Blessing of the Trickster, dash into hiding and then Invoke Duplicity on the next turn. What this does is essentially causes every enemy to think that her duplicate IS her. As a bonus action, she can then move her duplicate up to 30 feet to a space she can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of her. Then, as if that wasn't awesome enough, she can cast spells as though she WERE in the illusion's space, again, as long as she has line of sight (I think the rules state that she must use her own senses). And then, as if all that wasn't enough, when both her and her illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, the Trickery Cleric has advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
My suggestion: First, gotta fix stealth mechanics in BG3. Period. There needs to be NON-sight-cone Stealth checks, and extended sight cones. I suggest Hearing Rings based on an enemy's Passive Perception, and Sight Cones need to extend to a range equal to that of the Hearing Rings. If sneaking beyond 10 times Passive Perception, no roll necessary - so Sight Cones also extend only up to 10 times Passive Perception. Stealth is automatic if beyond this range. So, if enemy has Passive Perception of 11, you can sneak up to 110 feet away without a roll even if the enemy is facing you. Some conditions apply. For example, in dark areas, light source would limit Sight Cones even for those with Dark Vision. Why? Because the light messes with Dark Vision. If enemies are using a Light Source, then they should only be able to see up to the edge of the Light Source. Thus, easier to sneak in the Underdark and so forth where enemies are using torches and jazz.
If within 10 times Passive Perception, a single Stealth check per round/every 6 seconds, is necessary. If Sneaking character is outside Sight Cone, DC is Passive Perception. If inside Sight Cone, DC is Passive Perception but the Sneaking character has Disadvantage.
This makes Blessing of the Trickster WAY more valuable. Now, even to get close to an enemy who has their back to you, you have to make Stealth checks every 6 seconds or round (if in Turn-based mode). Having Advantage, therefore, becomes SO much more valuable. Even IF you are in a Sight Cone, Blessing of the Trickster becomes quite important, for you would negate the Disadvantage on each roll. Also, if you wear armor that penalizes you with Stealth Disadvantage, this power negates that disadvantage, which is really important if you now have Hearing Rings to contend with.
My second suggestion is that Invoke Duplicity needs to be made like a Familiar that you can control. Of course, this requires them to implement some sort of control over a minion via Bonus action, which they need to do anyway for other minions in 5e. But I'll get into that when I go over other classes. The point is, we NEED this kind of functionality in the game. Invoke Duplicity is very similar to how Familiars are supposed to be with wizards, and it is so important that they implement this right. It REALLY makes a world of difference when a spellcaster, like a Trickster Cleric, can cast spells through their minion.
Remember, one of the main points of the Trickster is diversion and avoidance. So, Shadowheart should be a ranged person using her Invoke Duplicity and Blessing of the Trickster in tandem to stay hidden and wail on enemies or distract them from a distance while her companions do a lot of the dirty work. Without Stealth being fixed and done properly, and without these two abilities working in tandem, the Trickster Cleric is severely hindered. In a word, the Trickster becomes quite lame without these two Channel Divinity abilities working powerfully in her favor.
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member
Joined: Feb 2021
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Yeah, I gotta say I too enjoy the ability to Cast an action spell and a bonus action spell in the same round and not be limited to choosing to either Casting a cantrip then bonus action healing word or shield of faith OR choosing Cure wounds and wasting my bonus action doing nothing because clerics have exactly 0 cantrips that are bonus actions. The ONLY thing that clerics have at early level that allows them to have a full action and bonus action every turn Larian hasn't added yet and that is spiritual weapon. because then at least you can enter battle round one you shouldn't need to heal at all so yo can Example: Action> Sacred Flame, Bonus Action> Spiritual Weapon from there as the fight progresses whether you Heal or Bless or w/e you can always use your spiritual weapon to bonus action attack the enemy.
So, I guess what I am getting at is this. In BG3 I am fine with the fact that they have removed the one spell/ one cantrip limitation to spell casting, BUT if Larian wants to give Clerics back their spiritual weapon I'd be fine with the classic 5e rules.
That said... in later levels (whether Larian decides to keep it the way they have it or to implement the 5e RAW on this matter) the big bosses tend to be kinda bullshit with action economy anyway, because not only do they have whatever "normal" abilities their cast of creature/ class of character would have they also get legendary abilities. (though I suppose depending on how much you use your tadpole, you and your companions might end up with some pretty bullshit abilities too)
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