Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Is Bless Scroll in Patch 7?

I mean, if it's unwritten (and from a fandom site) then it's not necessarily an actually a rule of the system, but instead homebrew. Though yes, something close to rule zero is written in the DMG pg 4, saying that "the rules aren't in charge; the DM is."

But this just brings us back to the questions: "Why change a rule? Are the implications of this change thought out? Does it make the game better or worse?" Yes, Larian has the right to change rules as they are the DM. But that doesn't mean their decisions are inherently good - e.g., see cantrip surfaces and Advantage High Ground/Backstab, things which saw huge player outcry and were subsequently fixed by Larian.

And as always, relying on players to self-police their actions in-game is not good game design. We should be playing against the game, not against ourselves.

I dont play against myself ...
I just play. :P

And it works pretty well.

You can take feats from different magical classes at lvl 4, so a strict rule that one class can only cast their native spells and no others is at least not in BG3. So as a Light Domain cleric I can cast Hex suddenly or use Blast Wave. Why then should a hardworking mage not be able to learn some "normal" cleric spells from scrolls? I think the magical stuff which comes from the gods can be easily supplanted by direct energy from ... whatever (I think the gods use it too).

Personally I can understand the criticism and I share it to a big part. I would prefer a restriction to class spells, a reduction of scrolls and some severe limitations for being able to use scrolls. But I also don't like multi-classing and the level 4 magical feats, so it's kind of consistent. I tried the magical feats and dumbed it, especially the use of Hex outside the Warlock seems wrong to me (ok, my decision was helped a bit by the magical marker for Hex hovering above your head, I hate such magical effects ...). I never gave a spell to the wizard which is not from his school, actually I only used a scroll for this once because I had forgotten to choose the spell at level-up. I also don't use scrolls in combat, it's luckily not necessary.

So as long as I don't see lots of enemy wizards with cleric spells, I can live with the house rule not to use a game feature I don't like.

To class balance, wizards don't need cleric spells to be good in my opinion. But they also don't get op with it, as there are some restrictions still valid. I still hear Gale silently crying during the nights sometimes because he never ever will get such a good aoe as my cleric, hehe.

Well... You can see things in another way.
Why should wizards be able to learn and cast everything with their spellslots (+ scrolls) while other classes should take a feat to cast one spell once/day (+ scrolls).

Wizard's being Sven's favorite class doesn't change the fact that this decision really messes up the class balance. It's not like wizards weren't already intended to be very versatile!

Because they are wizards. The brightest and most enthusiastic of the magical users. Let's take it, sorcerers are just lucky to have some magic, warlocks need to sell themselves for a tiny bit of might and also my cleric is just a prostitute of his god to get some power. Wizards are better, deal with it.

I presume that the fact I don't have such a big problem with it is related to my use of wizards, in this case Gale. I only use a very restricted number of spells I like and don't have the feeling that the versatility of wizards makes them especially strong. Gale is a funny person (he is too young for a wizard in my opinion however) but, frankly said, he is only in my group because of the Misty Step - Thunder Wave combi which saved me several times in very desperate situations.

Exactly! +1

Found Swen's secret account.

The simple fact that cleric spells arent in the wizard spell book anwsers that question for you.

Fixed for you!

Hmm, I think in Faerun I would indeed like to be a Sorcerer and not a boring Wizard because I'm a lazy person. But unfortunately if my magic abilities are set near zero, what to do? Become a Cleric, like me! You sell yourself to a higher power similar to a Warlock, true, but you can still pretend to be a nice guy. As hypocrisy is a firm part of religion anyway, that's great, isn't it?

Question:
How would you like lazy solution ... removal of Cleric scrolls?

I mean the same argument (that Cleric powers come from deity itself) can be used to them aswell in my opinion. O_o
How would you like to catch direct link to deity on scroll, if not as a ritual?

Wouldn't it be a better solution to restrict Wizards to wizard spells? Maybe it's in the Working Safety rules for Wizards, chapter 5B.1, Wizards are not allowed to mess with non-Wizard spells, otherwise they lose insurance coverage?

That opens the question "What is a Wizard spell?" and, more deeply, what is actually the stuff that allows Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Clerics and other wannabe heroes/villains to cast spells? Is energy from/for a god/old monster different than energy from/for a Wizard or Sorcerer? What energy is this then?

If you're posing those as rhetoricals for the sake of humour, Geala, all well and good, but if you're asking those questions with an interest in the (already quite define and well-established) answers provided by the realm space we're working in and the 5e d&D system, I'd be happy to go over some of the in-universe lore and external-mechanical details if you want ^.^

If you had a link to a well made explanation of the fundamental DnD lore rules and backgrounds, that would be nice. I read the lore page of BG3 and on some other pages but as a non-DnD player I lack much of the knowledge necessary to really understand the Faerun matters.

I always take such discussions with a grain of humor, however. Partly it's bit of a bitter taste humor, if you think about what happens in the world and what we discuss here.

Perhaps wizards (if they must) could cast cleric spells with a penalty.

It could be a simple modifier or even a lvl. restriction.

I must say I want classes to stand out - we cherish the differences and hence do not want all classes to be able to use the same spells, equipment etc.

...Onward then

If Cleric spells would use Wisdom for Casting instead of Intellect, even when casted by Wizard, it would be first step in right direction.

I'll start with in-universe lore, and go onto mechanics second...

So, the handbooks says it best when is says that all understanding of anything magical begins and ends with the weave. The weave is a force and structure that permeates every fibre of existence in the realms – it's an essential element of the multiverse. The weave itself is, in the very literal sense, the form and source of all magic. You can't see or detect the weave itself, generally speaking – not even with spells – but you draw from it to use magic, functionally constructing/building/waving the shapes and forms of the spells you make from threads of the weave, to give them actualisation in the world.

You could, if you wanted to make a broadly similar parallel, compare it tot he force in certain sci-fi series... at least in a way. In the manner of its existence in relation to the tangible world, perhaps.

Everyone and everything that uses magic, in nay way, does so by drawing on the weave; the weave is not aligned, and gods, fiends, fey and mortals alike all draw on it to do their magic.

There have been a few instances in the history of the realms where the wave had died; Mystra (a deity, but also in many ways a 'position', since the Mystra we have now is not the same person as the Mystra we had at a previous time) is the keeper of the weave, the embodiment of the weave, and quite literally the weave itself; in the past times when Mystra died or was cut off from her divinity, magic itself failed, and was temporarily gone from the realms entirely, for everyone.

Anyone with the requisite skill, natural talent or knowledge can draw on the weave, but How an individual draws upon the weave varies; everyone who uses magic does, but the methods are different.

A Sorcerer has within them an innate, direct connection to the energies of the weave, and draws upon it directly, themselves – this often is coupled with a lack of knowledge or understanding that a learned individual might have (because the sorcerer will be a magic user, no matter if they want to or not), and also a lack of protection or control that working through an intermediary affords – a sorcerer must learn to deal with their power without killing themselves or others, because it generally wants to be used, and often doesn't want to take 'no' for an answer. Sorcerers come to be through many different methods – exposure to chaotic magical events, planar incursions, bloodline gifts from magical creatures, etc.

Clerics access the weave by way of divine intermediaries; they are faithful to deities who serve as the go-between for the cleric and the eave itself. In essence, the have a divine connection to their deity (the strength and capacity of which varies by cleric), and their deity provides them with power in a controlled and manageable way – the power still comes from the weave, initially, but it becomes the deity's power first, and is then challenged to the cleric. Paladins Are usually in the same situation as clerics – getting their powers from their god – but certain paladins have found that the spark of tapping the weave lies within them already and are able to achieve effects of power on their own, through their own force of personality.

Warlocks are, in many ways, exactly like Clerics. They have a patron who serves as their intermediary to access the weave. They don't have innate capability to access the weave on their own, nor a divine connection; instead, they are gifted with power, channelled to them from their patron (who does have a powerful connection to the weave, just like a deity does). The main difference between a warlock and a cleric is that their deal with their patron is usually exactly that – a deal, or a bargain, and the mortal is often paying a very dear price of some sort for the power they are being given.

Druids and Rangers tap the weave through the land itself, using the natural world as their conduit and the 'buffer' that helps them manage the weave in a controlled way. This method of utilising the weave tends to incline their magic in two main directions – subtle, self-fortifying effects, and expressions of the natural world, its beauty and its power.

Bards have a lot of overlap with sorcerers, though the expression of their power is usually less dangerous and less demanding. They are natural, innate casters who utilise the weave without an intermediary, but they channel it through music, song and art, and this acts as their conduit to give it shape and regulate the flow of power.

Wizards are unique in that as spellcasters, they actually have no innate natural connection to the weave at all, and no deity or patron to provide them with one. They are, in fact, entirely mundane, 'normal' mortals with no magical 'ability' in them. What a wizard has, is academia, and their iron-clad ability to utilise shape, form and sound in order to evoke strands of weave directly, even though they cannot actually 'feel' the flow of the weave, in the same way that innate casters and those with connections to other powerful entities do. At best, a wizard feels the movement of power by proxy – they build the scaffolding and pipes that shape the weave in the way they want to create their spells, and that cause it to flow, but they only feel it in the same way that you feel water flowing through a pipe when you put your hand on the metal.

Magical creatures tap the weave innately to achieve their special effects – like beholders hovering and vampire's potent charms; for them it's an in-build part of their essence and nature, and not something that taxes them or takes energy, generally speaking.

==

As for what this all means in a PnP game...

A spell, then is a discrete magical effect – it is threads of weave drawn forth, shaped in a particular way, and turned loose into the world to create an effect. Each spell has a level, from 0-9, that is a description of the power of the spell and how taxing it is on the caster to form and release.

What spells you can access are determined very specifically by your class; each class has a spell list, and those spells are the only ones that the can cast or learn to cast. These lists have a lot of overlap between them, but they are generally designed to differentiate the casting classes and show the style of spells that each class generally trends towards – druids have a lot of nature and elemental spells on their list, as well as things like commune with nature, speak with animals, barkskin, and so on, while clerics have a lot spells that are traditionally associated with divine providence in some way.

A break down on what spells are and how they are cast can be found here:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#Spellcasting

So, the question of “What makes a wizard spell?” is very simple – If it's on the Wizard spell list, it's a wizard spell. If it's not, it's not.

You can gain spellcasting options from different sources, of course, and there are perks, feats and other features that may add to, extend or change your spell list. A common phrase you might see on class perk that grants extra spell access is “This spell counts as a wizard spell for you”, which is denoting that, even though the spell might not normally be on your wizard class spell list, having learned this spell, it now counts as being a wizard spell for you anyway, and will work with your other class features that affect your wizard spells specifically.

Thank you for the explanations.

However, if the power of magic comes from the weave, then potentially a wizard could cast a cleric spell if he knew the formalities because also the cleric uses power from the weave, only detouring through the deity he buckles under. Or not?

The argument "it's on a list" is not quite satisfying for me, although I work in the public service and deal with laws and rules a lot.


A question, however OT, as I'm playing a cleric currently and presumably will so after release: I would possibly prefer Sune as my deity (if the Internet did not fool me) but in her absence I'm a cleric of Tyr, and the hag said to me that she could tell me a lot about the crimes of the gods, which jarred a bit my hypocritical hubris as incarnation of law and order. What about the gods?

In theory, yes - but there are historical in-universe explanations to caveat it. the general story that's told is that the way in which deities take power and channel it to their faithful creates a substantial difference - enough that a mortal making intellect-based constructs to draw the weave out directly just don't achieve. However, this story HAS changed over various game generations, and the reason behind it is at the pure mechanical balance and style level of the game itself; Arcane casters don't get access to healing magic, as a general principle of game design in D&D. Similar to the general rule that cantrips can never provide actual healing - you'll note that there are none that do, and that's absolutely deliberate.

Jump to the modern game rule-set, however, and some of these things are relaxing slightly, or they are being suggested at relaxing. We now have Divine Soul Sorcerer, for example - this is a sorcerous origin that, as their primary perk, lets you choose spells from the Cleric spell list as well as the sorcerer one. It's a major choice though - it's the cost-resource of picking that specific thing as you origin, to the exclusion of all else.

Similarly, there was an initial trial stage in the unearthed arcana for a Theurgist Wizard school - this would have been a wizard tradition that gave you access to cleric spells; once again it would have been a severe investment - the choice of your arcane tradition. That subclass didn't get enough traction and had some substantial balance problem though, and it didn't make it out of unearthed arcana. So, in theroy, yes, it's possible - but a wizard would need to be dedicating the whole of their wizarding career and study to learning how to manipulate the weave in ways that mimic divine power; a major, major undertaking that defines their entire academic life... not an afternoon looking at a cleric scroll you found in a shop.

The spell list explanation is mechanical - it's just simply an explanation of the rules of the game and the way it's set up, and the spell lists are set up the way they are for a good number of deliberate reasons. There are a number of spells that only wizards can learn, and which don't exist on any other class list. There are also a lot of spells that do not appear on the wizard list - traditionally divine ones and ones that are directly manifestations of divine connections. The reasons for this, at the base level, underneath the lore explanations and excuses, are balance-mechanical.

==

As for the gods.... Gods are not all incarnations of law or order. Some are... but gods come in every possible flavour you can conceive of, more or less. There are gods for everything, and there are as many evil and neutral ones as goodly ones, and as many chaotic ones as lawful ones.... and a lot of gods have a very long history of an almost Grecian-deity style of pettiness and internal rivalry at times.

Gods in the realms hold what are referred to as folios (this is just the nomenclature that we use); specific things that they preside over and oversee. There is, for example, the folio of death, which is different from the folio of dying, and different from the folio of the transition between life and death, and different again from the folio of the dead, and not to be confused with the folio of murder, of assassination, of accidental death, of decay, of undeath.... all differentiated *enough* that different deities can hold them and preside over them... you may start to get the picture ^.^ The larger and more broad a folio is, the more powerful the god that controls it is - and must be to keep it. Begin a god is a dangerous business, because control of divine folios changes hands far more frequently than your average mortal might suspect, and a god that loses control of a folio to another is greatly diminished by the loss. Worse, a god can be subsumed by another having its folio absorbed into those controlled by the dominant god, and they risk being utterly destroyed in the process... and this, in turn, can happen as a result of mortal beliefs, souls and prayers, because in the realms, having belief and believes is a two-way street, and deities do gain - and lose - power by the strength and count of the faith of their followers.

Gods are a complicated topic, to put it simply ^.^

Oh! And, a number of today's gods were originally mortals who ascended to god-hood through various means, and most gods that exist have been forced at one time or another to be fully mortal too - and many were killed while they were, which caused a lot of problems.

If you'd like some more in-depth reading, you can try these pages:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deity

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Portfolio

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Portal:Deities

Kinda shame you dont make some kind of podcast Niara, i would definietly subscribe.

Question ... how about Monks?
Do they also in work with weave in some way? Especialy Monks that goes Way of the Four Elements?