Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Some races too easily accepted

If I'm honest, it was always kinda stupid, in DnD and any other rpg, to use "race" as the word.
NOT because of any political sjw nonsense, but because they were never races. They were species.

Drow, Gith, and humans are not different races, they are different species. That is the word that should be used. That is the word that should always have been used.
And in turn race is the subset of the species. So when you pick the human species, and then edit the skin color, *that* is the race setting.
So it is absolutely RIDICULOUS to me to hear that WotC wants to change the word to "lineages". Just WHY. That term doesn't separate types of creatures, it seperates family trees within one type of creature. If they really feel the need to stop using "race" they could at least switch to the term it should have been the whole time.

As for the start of this game, at least, those two tieflings ahead of the grove do have Lae in a cage and instantly go to attack a drow or gith player; then everyone in the Grove has the fact you just helped defend them from a goblin attack to think about.

I gotta say though, I love the interaction between that one tiefling merchant-thief-kid and a Seladrine drown.
Kids sees you walking up and thinks something like *oh hey, it's one of those creatures from those nonsense rumors adults made up to scare me. "Hey dude, is that bs they say about you lot true :)"*
And you just casually go "Nah, that's the other kind, if you see one run TF away little child."
Kid be like "Oh..... 0_0"

Side not for that one commenter who will probably never see this since I didn't quote them:
Don't forget paladins aren't attached to gods anymore. They just make oaths, a god is not needed.

I mean, that entire argument rests on the arbitrarily decided designation biologists use in their denominational system being the only definitions of the words. It doesn't really have any relation to the actual meaning of the words.

In other words: who gives a shit?

Kinda funny they want to change it to lineages, though. But then again Amazon changed a logo 'cause it looked like Hitler's mustache to some loonies, so who knows anything anymore nowadays.

Hmm, I got to the settlement with a drow and this didn't happen - there was only a slightly different line from one of the folks at the door. Maybe it's different for Lloth-sworn than for Seldarine?

Well ... yes, but actualy no ...
Few purely retorical questions:

What is difference between Drow, High Elf and Wood Elf?
Or between Duegar, Gold Dwarf and Shield Dwarf?
Or between Deep Gnome and Rock Gnome?
Or between Githyanki or Githzerai?
Or between Human from one side of the world and other side of the world.
You get the idea ...

Isnt it easier to simply call it all races, than somethimes races, sometimes species, sometimes cultural difference, and somethines i dunno flavours prehaps ...
Just to be absolutely corect? :-/

That is really wonderfull news ...
Can anyone confrim?

They once attack me on sight too, but it was bcs i kinda fall on one of them, wich was concidered attacking.

I hope that we will finally have in a finished game a hostility and intolerance from some (and the best most of them) NPC's when playing as drow. And not only as Lolth-Sworn Drow but also as Seladrine Drow. Even if both types of drows differ physically and you can distinguish them from each other, not every NPC must know the differences between them to know who he has to deal with. Not to mention countless stories about cruelty of drows, whose all generations listened by hundreds of years. Something like that must arouse distrust, even in the hearts of some NPC's that are actually know about the difference between Lolth-Sworn Drow and Seladrine Drow.

+1 to OP.

Also not only are they merely reacting when you - as drow or gith litteraly the stuff of nightmares in the FR - appear. No one even mentions the fact that a drow appears on the surface, in blistering sunlight.

My personal copium-generating theory is that Larian did implement a Day/night cycle in the game, but is holding it out of EA to drop as one of the big surprises for EA-participants post-launch. Think about it, a lot of stuff would make tremendously more sense (e.g. Astarion/drow/etc. existing in the day, the goblin attack taking place under nightly conditions which favour rather than penalize them) and it would be one of the ultimate 'ok, I forgive you for all the other incoherence and stuff you changed from the 20 year old predecessor games' things (at least for me it would).

Either that, or Larian and anything WoTC related will end up being classified in the Cyberpunk-Hype-Money-Grab category in my head.

A few points to make on this topic. First is that species implies incompatibility in terms of romance. In other words, if there is no way for the two to have children, then they would be considered a different species. Cats and dogs are of a different species because they cannot mate and have young.

When D&D first began, the races were compatible. You had elf, dwarf, halfling, and human. Although you did not see half dwarves or half halflings, that is mainly because people did not like the concept of such races intermingling. They didn't mind the concept of elf and human because they were of the same size and were relatively close in many ways.

It has evolved since then to include a lot of other races. Although you don't see half tieflings or half dragonborn, there is still a sort of freedom in the game to build such romances should the players like the idea. Shoot. You now even have half ogres in D&D. I'm not even sure how that works. I don't think I want to know.

But if you tack on the label species, it immediately puts up a mental barrier that says that those two races are incompatible and unnatural. Immediately, one starts to think that if they had a romance between, say, a tiefling and a dragonborn that it would be like a romance between a bird and a fish or a cat and a dog. It starts to get kind of creepy.

As it is, the more creature the race, the more creepy it is for me. A dragonborn romance with any other race but a dragonborn is just kind of weird to me. The same is true for many of the races the further away from human you get.

But anyway, in terms of people treating different races more harshly in the game, they have had people respond to drow differently. But they did not want this to be a hindering part of the game, so right away they have Zevlor say that he is going to announce to everyone that you are a friend and not an enemy so that you can actually interact with people in the Grove.

But lots of characters actually react to you being a Drow. Goblins immediately see you and treat you like you are their Superior. Kagha is very excited to meet an under elf. Minthara makes a comment as well as does Ragzlin.

The point is that they have these things in the game, and I think they do it pretty well to avoid players getting frustrated if they're playing a member of a certain race. They could maybe do a little more with some of the other races like the Gith, but overall I thought they did pretty well.

As for sun sensitivity, I would not want them to put that into the game for your drow character unless they create a day-night cycle. Imagine having disadvantage on all of your attack rolls and skill rolls while on the surface. Just about every fight in the EA you would have disadvantage for. No thank you.

Don't get me wrong, I want them to implement a day night cycle so that they will put in the Sun sensitivity trait as it should be, but if they aren't going to do day night, then absolutely no. That would make them the worst race to play.

I believe i have seen such reaction ...
If i remember corectly, the guarding goblin from the roof in Blighted Village is the one who said it.

Goblins are done well ... they approach you completely differently if you are Drow ... you can blow your cover tho, and that is fine.
All others are kinda lame, bcs that mentioned coment is usualy all and everything you get. :-/

What i (and concidering this topic, im not alone in this) would like would be completely different experience ...
Not "oh you are Drow ... well, usualy i dont thrust your kind but you seem to be okey" > jump to exactly same generic conversation as any other race. -_-

NO!

I want my Drow (/Gyth/Half-Orc/ ... maybe even Tiefling, when talking to someone else than his own kind ) to be distrusted, i want to roll persuation checks, just to get out something other races will get in regular talk ... i want to have completely diferent dialogues ... i want (and this will be potentialy unpopular part) to be restricted from some approaches to side quests!

Take Arabella for example ... Drows are known for kidnaping childern to their bloody sacrifices, or faiths even worse ...
Does it make sence that any consterned mother would enthrust faith of her only (as it seems) child to such creature? It doesnt to me.

- Regular race: Talking to Locke and his wife (i dont remember the name) ... gets to know that Arabella is judged, and you are asked to speak in her behalf ... later you enter the inner sanctum and you see the process ... blah blah blah, you know the rest.

- Drow (or other evil race): Talking to Lock and his wife all you get to know is that their child is in danger ... either you win your persuation roll and then you find out the same info (prefferably with some coments about how desperate they are to ask a Drow for help) ... or you loose your persuation roll and then they tells you something about that they never save their child just to give it to YOUR hands *insert apropriate insult here* ... later you enter the inner sanctum and you see the process ... blah blah blah, you know the rest.

This is what i want ...
In the end the outcome for player is the same ... but NPCs actualy DONT THRUST YOU ... not "oh Zevlor said you are okey, lets completely forget about everything we heared about your kind our whole life ... and also lets forget that Zevlors judgement isnt exactly the best one all the time, bcs it was HIM who get us into this dead trap."

I would call that "barely acceptable" at best ...

Pretty well would be if the game would actualy offer you alternative routes if you are certain Races (or Class if they have bad reputation ... for example i can imagine that not many people would like Warlocks) bcs the regular one is unacessible for you.

Example from different game:
I hate Museum quest in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines ... bcs that whole level is created for sneaking character, there is no other approach aviable for you.
If you play Nosferatu wich can "magicaly turn invisible" (huge oversimplification) ... this level is no bigy for you.
But once you play Toreador, or Ventrue wich both specialize in social interaction ... you are screwed, bcs your only way to finish this level is try hard your best to do something your clan (feel free to read as class) is not suppose to do well ... and even if you potentialy can spend XP for it, to become good enough to finish this quest (and honestly its not even that hard ... people can notice you, you are just forbidden to kill) it still leaves you bitter taste, bcs this is just not what you were suppose to do, roleplay-wise.

Part of a planned Goblin character of mine is him being Dour because of these constant reactions "Yeah yeah, I'm a Goblin, get it out of your system.".

+1 to the fact that I would prefer more reaction on my character being a drow form "non-evil" npc`s. Dont really feel that I am playing a "monster from horror stories" most of the time. Even with Waukeen's rest: this place was attacked by drow not so log ago, their duke was captured by drow, and reaction on my drow was only "aaa, drow!" from one woman (who, for some reason is not busy with trying to open the door...) and people near the door react on me only "why are you standing, go and help!" That just looks really absurd, imho
Or Tyr`s paladins who react on drow "hey, come in, take a rest, help us". Should they... I don't know... at least be surprised about drow?

Also was very surprised about little to none reaction on half drow.
I don't know much about lore, but for my eyes the character I create as drow and a half drow really look very similar (dark skin, red eyes, white hair), but nearly all npc`s in game from the first sight understand that I am "not real" drow and just treat me as human. How dos that work? Even Nettie doesn't comment about a drow.

Feel free to corect me anyone if im wrong ...

But i think Half-Drow is Larian invention ... like they werent the thing before BG-3.
(Wich kinda makes sense ... no Drow would ever ebarase themself by having sex with any of "lesser races" ... aswell as no human should have the desire ... even tho on the other hand, it seems much easier to me than having a thing for Orcs. :-/ Ugh. )

And about why so many people dont miss them ... well, there is entire threat about that topic: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=686081#Post686081

The way i understands it, Elves "should" look a LOT less human-like ...
But since Larian is scaning human heads for their models, they dont have properly alien elf look ... but there "should" be clear difference ... therefore people cant misstake Elf (or Drow) for Half-Elf (or Drow), bcs they simply are different.
The way i excuse absence of this in the game itself, is that Elves are simply too unknown for my Middle Europian bran to catch the small details ... i reason it the same in games that uses same model for every alien race (like Batarians, Krogans, Turians, Salarians or Vorcha in Mass Effect).

I dont want to sound racist, but when i see pictures of some Asian people, i often dont see much difference between them aswell ... so, this would probably be simmilar case.

In fact, a lot has changed since 2e.
In frequent raid areas, drows are hardly liked more than in 2e times, but in the case of a city like BG, the drow won't have much trouble.
From what I remember, the BG currently has quite a large population of drows.
In addition, in the city you can also find representatives of more "monstrous" races.

As for me, the response to the drow in the game is pretty good with one exception.
While it's not that bad, in the end, a single drow shouldn't be a threat to the Flaming Fist squad, especially when they're busy rescuing their boss.

Half-Drow have been a thing since 3e at least, and been in several crpg games, but they have usually been a sub-race option, or even just a cosmetic option, for Half-Elf. I'm not sure why BG3 seems to want to separate Drow from Elves and Half-Drow from Half-Elves.

Once again, with feeling:

Drow are Elves, Larian! Drow are Elves!

Pretty sure Neverwinter Nights 2 allowed Half-Drow for Half-Elves as well.
That games had sub-races for DAYS.

The drow did get "whitewashed" somewhat as of 4e, if I am not mistaken, as many of them were driven to the surface during the Spellplague events and there was a whole diaspora living in at least Neverwinter.

I do agree that the githyanki should just have a different BG city experience in Act 2 from the rest of the races. You see a Flaming Fist patrol wiped out by them, and being all welcome in a city that seems to be going through crises on a regular basis in the late XVth century as an outer-planar usually-invader whose people have no concept of empathy would be really out of place. I guess there could be deception checks involved to try to pass oneself as a githzerai or something (and a githzerai would have to do persuasion checks to convince people that they aren't dangerous).

I gues its bcs they have their own two sub-races ...
It would be weird to have them all in same folder ...

Also Drow have quite different set of racial bonuses. :-/

And from worldbuilding perspective ... yes we all know that "technicaly" Drow are elves ... but i bet neither group likes to hear that.

I dont think they are separate. O_o
Since first start of Early Acess they are both sub-races of Half-Elves ... only in pre-launch version, when Swen was playing, we have seen them separated.

That's the problem if you make too many races available, you had to tell a lot of different stories to make it consistent. I think it's not worth the effort. And on the other hand, imagine the shitstorm by many fans if Drows etc. would be really handled differently during the main story in a consequent manner. And perhaps thrown out by a charisma check?

Specificaly ... 2. O_o

One set of interaction if your Race is widely accepted in comunities.
And one set of interactions if your Race is not.

Sure, it can quite easily be messed up ... and that would suck.
Question is how would developers deal with such predicament ... in my honest opinion, right now it IS screwed, not so badly as it could be ... but also certainly not even close to as good as it should be.

Have you ever played Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines?
Its 2004 game, from Troika games (no longer existing studio) ... there you pick clan (something like Race + Class messed together) ... and while you indeed can walk through whole game as any of them, no choice will restrict you in this matter ...
BUT! ... NPCs react diferently on you, and in some extreme cases (called Nosferatu, where you are creature so ugly and hideous some NPCs become hostile just bcs you reached too close) you are forced by your choice to search for alternative routes.

Few examples:
- Instead of walking to the building through the front door ... you need to crawl through sewers and sneak through the back door.
- Instead of sneaking through the hidden entrance ... you can steal invitation from one of guests on social event, and pretend you are him/her.
- Instead of talking to NPC and persuating him to write and bad review on restaurant ... you can use your supernatural abilities to make him see worms on his plate.
- Depending on your clan, you get acess (or are resticted from) to certain apartments, some are locked behind a quest, some are extra reward for certain clans, some cant get any of them.

That is the kind of reactivity we (read as i) would like to see ...

And the best part is, that Larian (at least as it seems to me) actualy is trying to achieve something really close!
Just look at amount of permutations you can do with Kagha quest ...

The best example (in my opinion) for Baldur's Gate III. would be Arabella, or Counselor Florrick ...
No matter if anyone tells you, they still are in danger ...
- while Arabella parents would refuse to talk to a Drow about their problems, you would still have option to save her (even with that satisfying apology from her mother, for doubting you, idealy) ...
- in Florrick case, she would still be traped in burning building and would need your help, no matter if her soldiers would attack you or not ...

Well, thats why they have racial bonus isnt it?