Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Early Access - A Mistake?

There's also a survey that was done right after the beginning of the EA asking if players were "satisfied" with the chain system.
50% were satisfied while 50% weren't (+-1000 playerd gave their opinion).

We could argue that people here give more feedback about things they don't really like so the 70% may not be absolutely representative of the whole community... but we could also argue that "being satisfied" doesn't really mean that you like something.

In the end this survey show that at least 1 player out of 2 is annoyed by this feature and the megathread tend to show that most players dont find it super efficient. That's all we have.

It would have been very cool if other survey were done during the EA. I'm glad Larian choose this path because we have succeed at making them change jump/disengage, backstab, highground, cantrip surfaces.
I hope they'll listen for other (major) changes but if the EA question is raised, in my opinion it's only because Larian is doing a POOR job with this EA. The lack of community manager and the lack of communication is really a problem.

I really like playing EA games but I'll probably never buy any Larian's EA anymore. As a non artwork or memes creator, I think they're extremely disrespectfull to their community.

i'm currently replaying solasta. just purchased all the DLCs. i haven't play bg3 EA ever since its initially first release. not even patch2, 3.. or whatever. so i really hope when replaying it's going to be a breeze rather than a tedium. the skip intro in solasta is pretty neat.

on top of that.. i'm actually installed the community expansion mod. there seems to be an option for multi-class. this is really awesome. i pretty figure out what kind of build i want for a multi-class character in bg3. only wish is that level cap should be around level 12. it would be great if more.

>>>
When exactly we turned from "spoke unfavorably" to "users in total" ?
You have to pick a side ...

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See? Not pretty much 95% ... exactly 72% ...
Thanfully Flooter did the math for me, as he said, feel free to check it.

Once again, exaggerated.

Thats quite easy ...
It points out to the fact that "overwhelming majority of people who cared about the topic enough to come to this forum to that topic, to complain about it ... didnt like it".

Not users in general.

Funny enough, i bet that in my studies of statistic during University i learned quite well samples works.

Let me tell you in short something:

The main aspect for sample to have any value is that those people choosen for sample have to be "sufficiently different", to include as much potential opinions as possible ...
That is often achieved by picking people randomly.

Wich didnt happened here.

People come on this forum, bcs they had something to say ... wich logicaly exclude every single person that is satisfied with the game as it is.
And they participated in that topic, bcs they had something to say on that topic specificaly ... wich again logicaly exclude every single person who liked the system as it is, but didnt have the interest, or energy to go argue with others.

In other words ... if at least every single person from this Forum would participate in that topic, then its results would be much more acurate ...
Im still not sure they would be acurate, but it would be much better.

Yes, we all know you love to repeat yourself ...
No matter how many times you state, you will still be wrong.

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Indeed ...
Mine conclusion from such data would be that survey was not done properly ... and its conclusions are inconclusive.

Thats the problem ... it dont. :-/

I dunno how to say it ...
Imagine you come to Apple store to make survey if people like more IOS or Android ...

That is our situation ... maybe not as extreme, but in general ... the survey will be strongly bend to one side, but its informative value is ... questionable at best. :-/

Agreed.

Yeah, I didn’t mention margin of error. Using a Survey Monkey applet (which I may have done wrong) the margin of error is -/+6%. That means there’s a 95% chance that the actual number of people who dislike the system is between 66% and 78%.

Who we’re surveying is an important question. It’s likely this “thread count” and the survey Maximuuus mentioned are reflective of different segments of the player base. Having to be a forum member in order to have your opinion tallied is a strong bias. My guess is they’re more invested in BG3 than average, and are likely to be somewhat outspoken given the very nature of a forum.

As for EA, I’m of two minds. Discovery is such a big part of this game that seeing a big chunk of EA in an unpoilshed state is that much less awe I’ll get to experience on launch. I bought into the EA because I’d heard and seen so much about 5e that I wanted to try my hand at building characters. The fact you can only build one per playthrough really burned me out quickly.

The fun part is watching the game grow and interacting with the forum. It’s really interesting to analyze the game’s issues, see what Larian do to address them and then read player feedback. I’m still hyped for every PFH because I want to know what changed. And I’ll be hyped for 1.0, when BG3 reveals all of its glory.

Why are you even assuming that only the ones that spoke openly against the chain system should count as the only ones that "spoke unfavorably" of it?
As I already pointed Maximuuus' interpretation of what counted as "neutral" in that thread was already pretty CHARITABLE.
Most of the "neutral" users had plenty of criticism about the system as well, most of the "mild positions" amounted to "Yeah, it's BAD, but maybe it would be better IF".
Not to mention that while I can't really be bothered to go back and check for everyone, I can already spot a bunch of users that were counted as "neutral" by Flooter while they actually expressed openly negative opinions about the system. Case in point: GM4Him was not "neutral" in the slightest.

And with what face are you even spitting hair about my approximation being inaccurate when yours amounted to "It's probably just 20 users"?
Are you even more unfamiliar with the concept of shame that with basic grammar?


Fun fact: the bias of the sample here is in FAVOR of Larian, not against it.
The people who hang around here are at very least interested in the game and committed to hang around and play the EA.
I know plenty of users in other spaces that aren't so well-inclined toward BG3 or past Larian products. In fact, while I may sound one of the fiercest opponents of the chain system here, in other forums I know people who rate it so badly that they said they just aren't interested in the game if this doesn't change.




"He said, while proving him right".

You are once again splitting hair and defending something bad for the sake of defending it.
And "repeating myself" is nowhere near as a bad habit as spouting incoherent nonsense on a regular basis just for the sake of pestering other forum users with your obnoxious and vapid multiquotes, since we are on it.

Care to point where we can check it? Because I've been here for years, even before the EA started, and I've never seen that survey.

In fact, I know the chain system was widely unpopular even in the DOS 1 and (especially) DOS 2 days and it has been a hot topic even back in the days.
i think one could even find the threads with some digging.

Admittedly at the time my criticism was way more focused on another WORSE DOS feature, which was its abysmal randomized loot system.

I absolutely don't understand the point. But I don't care, tbh.
I agree that most data are "questionnable", but it's still data and a "yes or no" does not allow much ambiguity.

Ofc it's a very old one that was done far before players had time to really try and retry and re-retry the game.


That's unofficial surveys created by a forum user a week or two after launch if I remember correctly.
One was submitted to the reddit and 1 to the forum.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sip8wb8Yu1-N1FC7dDY72RJewnu3hqvz/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IgN2IAZi8Hho6X_7XpiW-0N_cUYEJvX8/view

Two reasons ...
1) As i stated earlier, people tend to conclusions that are in aligment with their own ideas.
2) Since those people didnt express their opinion ... and i, on the contrary to some other people, dislike puting my words to other people mouth.

Again that word "most" ... you like those, dont you?

Lets agree that "some" of them indeed were ...
And some of them were amounted to "it could be better, but curent state is acceptable" ... i know, since i AM one of them. :P

And until you dont know exactly wich is wich, you cant include them to any group, since you are deciding for them ... in other words you distorts the results.

Smug face, definietly smug face.
Since thats how i usualy look. :P

Anyway since my point was that there was "not many people" ... wich i expressed with my guess of 20 ...

And yours was "OVERWHELMING majority of users" ... wich you expressed with your guess of 200 ...

And (this is the important part, focus!) ... my argument this whole time was that 200 users is NOT even in your wildest dreams close to something you should call regular "majority" (that is, not at all "overwhelming majority") ... while 20 is in my honest opinion quite close to "not many people" ...

My point stands unshaken.

How exactly can people who came to complain about something Larian did can be concidered to be in favor of Larian?

Yes, people are interested in game ... they are even interested in providing their opinions ...

But if you read (after you will be done with judging other people capability in gamar, at least enough to show your own) that argument properly ... you should easily find out that the argument was about that comitment and interest was the problem.

You should take your crystal ball to service, it seems to be broken.

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Ambiguity is not the problem here ...
Yes, you have only two options ... and yes, those options are clearly distinguishable one from another ...

But the problem is that while you are asking 100 / 1000 / 10 000 / 100 000 / 1 000 000 people ... in group that clearly is biased ... you never get proper results. :-/

Side note -

I wish this forum gave me the option to delete this thread and spare the world this pointless, sad argument.

A sample size of a few hundred is more than enough for a 5% margin-of-error and a confidence level of 95%. ~384 is the number that pops up for all populations greater than 100,000 people. A margin-of-error of 10% only requires a sample size of ~100.

And given that >72% (72% "explicit dislike" + some fraction of the 26% "unclear") of forum respondents actively dislike the chain mechanic, even a 10% margin-of-error still results in the conclusion that most people actively dislike the chain mechanic at a >3-sigma level. But we have a couple hundred respondents, so we're even more sure than that.
EDIT: I suppose it's a 2(2.5?)-sigma at most because of the 95% CI.

https://www.qualtrics.com/experience-management/research/determine-sample-size/
https://tools4dev.org/resources/how-to-choose-a-sample-size/
https://www.checkmarket.com/sample-size-calculator/

Here is source of your error.

Arguments are abowe.

Sorry about highjacking your thread to get an excuse to kill a couple of hours messing around with Excel at work. Let me actually answer your four questions.

First off, I believe in Larian’s passion and ambition. The stars are aligned for them to make a classic. They will use every weapon in their arsenal to make this game as successful as possible. That includes things like early access and console compatibility.

On one hand, DoS:2’s early access was a success according to Larian. They’ve repeatedly stated that player feedback helps them make the game better for the people who want to play it. It’s happened already in BG3, as people have stated previously. I’m positive more QoL upgrades are coming based on community feedback.

On the other hand, Larian’s ambition means they need to appeal to a wide audience. They’re trying to merge two fandoms with one game and compromises will be made, such as a control scheme designed around a controller even though it’s effing baffling for mouse users.

Some of it will be down to taste. But as I was skimming a 42 page thread trying to decide who felt what about a system, I noticed a good portion of the specific concerns mentioned had been addressed in later patches. The pathfinding is better, the autojump is better and requested buttons have been added. Those buttons aren’t perfect, but they’ll get better with another year of iteration.

Larian need all the time they can get to cater to every part of their target audience. Every piece of feedback will help them do that, whether you like it or not.

My first playthrough will go straight for the githyanki crèche. I’ve also never fought the fish people to save it for later. And I’m planning to buy a real gaming computer to really enjoy the visuals for the first time with 1.0.

There are some storylines that seem cut off, maybe there will be more intrigue in the grove and the underdark. The marsh also feels oddly empty, which is a nice change of pace but also a noticeable departure from usual Larian practice. There may be surprises there, or on the risen road, which oddly ends into the side of a mountain.

I feel the burnout.

A big part of the fun of BG3 is discovery. I’ve tried to be parcimonious with the content, but doing that means repeating the same critical path over and over. I’ve tried (almost) everything at least once by now, to spice up various runs, so the discovery lies in character builds. Unfortunately, my setup doesn’t let me play 2 characters, so I’m stuck with the five familiar faces on the poster.

It’s very different from “bad experiences”, though. I know what early access is. I’m psyched for the full release because, no matter the flaws in the game, I’m bound to find that sense of wonder when discovering 1.0.

On the contrary, I think this is a hype tactic. I agree with Wormerine:

BG3 is a work in progress, but I wouldn’t call it half baked. I’ve got 200+ hours on it already, which is a good deal for 60€. And you bet I’ll tell my friends when it comes out.

I wonder if Larian feels the same way about EA

People reffering to this EA having had big sweaping changes...are you kidding me? For me 95% of the base game we got 2 years ago remains unchanged. Saddly. We just got TWEAKS and bug fixes basically.
We got this and that class, this area etc...UHHH, thats the base game. Which we STILL do not have. Like BASIC STUFF like all the classes?? After 2 years? really now? BASIC UI is still uuuh, SHIT.
How can we test/play this game that does not EVEN HAVE ITS CORE FUNCTIONS finished?!
Could NOT CARE LESS of additional areas and story content. GIVE US 5 HOURS of the FINISHED GAME *close to. Hell 2 hours is FINE! All the classes, revised systems and UI.

At this point Larian is probably scrambling to finish all these annoying cinematics before going back to the core gameplay. I blame everything on that. Overload of cinematics dialogues WE DO NOT NEED.

Simple - by giving us stuff that Larian wants us interacting with. We are not there to provide critique encompassing the entirety of the game.

For that to happen they need to finish the game though, and by that time any feedback would be moot. The unfortunate reality is that none of us knows how the game development works, so our critique will always come from comparison to a finished title. Some of what we say might be of use to Larian, and a lot of it might be "duh, the game isn't finished dummy". How we interact with what we are given is probably more informative, then our ramblings.

Those are seperate departments.

Just to say... Early Access exists specifically to find bugs and make tweaks, major changes are going to be few and far between. Admittedly, they did release to EA seemingly kind of early, but its honestly hard to know. We've also gone a while without any major announcements, which is aggravating, but eminently understandable at this point in history.

Normally, yeah, I'd be complaining by now. But seriously, the majority of development has now come at a time which can hardly be considered normal. And not just the pandemic. Many of us are in the US... how concerned would you be about a war happening a few states over? Say, Ohio invaded Kentucky and you live in Colorado? You might even have friends and family you were hugely worried about. Also, please tell me you've noticed they've gone from 7 locations to 6. I haven't actually heard any news or announcements (yes, I've been kinda busy, now you mention it), but I'm guessing that 7th location isn't hugely productive right now, and if it is, they aren't really excited to advertise that fact.

As for it being a good decision? Who knows? They're probably kind of trading ongoing income for some of the major release day bang. But you also have idgits like me who bought a Stadia specifically for this game, saved up $4000 for a PC and bought it again. My little brother just bought it about a month ago. Guy I work with is waiting for full release, because he knows he doesn't like EA for anything. Reviews for EA will get swamped during release day, good or bad. I've reviewed twice, guarantee both will be updated within a week of full release.

Last but not least... This is not mainstream fandom. Don't get me wrong, we have our loud annoying Chads. They happen. I've been a fan of Baldur's Gate since before the first game started development. I remember traveling there in the mid 90's. My friends and I pooled our money and bought Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast the day it released. Most of us have been waiting for this game for decades. Including a lot of the people who are working on it.

I have faith in them.

Incredibly burned out and bored with BG3 now. As expected cinematic dialogue overload as gotten OLD and SILLY really fast. Itemization hasnt changed much from DOS2. Boring NPC choices. Boring party load-out with just 4. Incredible MESS of a UI. Slow slow slow tactical combat. Zero world atmosphere. NOTHING entices me to visit Faerun again. Man, cant wait to get immersed in that world...NOT!.

Between all the recent computer RPGs, I am playing Pathfinder WoTr the most. It just has everything *except for pretty face cinematic dialogues, which is great NOT having in my view (opens the game more to mods, more/longer dialogue, more content options).

It has that classic control and UI. Not design for controller shit. Not designed with smartphone user sensibilities.
Epic character portraits/ custom art option.
6 party members. Over 15 playable NPCs. All while not perfect, most are pretty great with the story.
A solid D^D 3.75 system *Pathfinder which I love. BOAT LOAD of classes and builds.
A fun simple yet epic story.
Incredible music, very immersive world. TONS of content.
Fun gameplay with OPTIONS to turn base OR RtWp. Both work great.
It just does EVERYTHING pretty well. I am not a big fan of the still too colorful manga like graphics (problem with EVERY games nowdays....), also wish we had a bit more character appearance customization.
All in all, that game feels more BG3 than Larian's BG3 lol.

Owlcat games : the longer I play them the more I love their games.
Larian games : the longer I play them the more I hate their games.

Yup. I genuinely wonder if there are people who play BG3 for more then couple hours and don’t skip through cinematics. I don’t even mean on repeated playthroughs - there is value in both cinematic presentation and full VO, but for me there must be a unique value in it - cinematics in BG3 are just not worth seeing/waiting for. Even if it’s something I haven’t seen before, it will be just same bland talking dolls I have seen countless times already. But unfortunately catering to people who will actually play the game for an extended time is catering to minority.

Yup.

Me! I love the cinematic dialogue!