Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

But I don't love RTWP at all.
Even in the classic RTWP games I played and enjoyed, that was more an acceptable compromise than an ideal solution for me.

I'm sorry but generally speaking RTWP sucks unwashed ass.
And Dragon Age is far from being the best exponent of that group, anyway.

i like to see RTwP revamped at least the system. To me it wasn't fast paced enough IMO. It needs to be like party-based action real-time some sorts of like diablo-esque fast paced but with pause. But i think there wasn't any system or games like that yet. Correct me if i'm wrong.

When it comes to random encounters, Kingsmaker is not half as bad as WotR.
They were still extremely bad, like a manticor group on a low lvl team where you could barely kill one.
And of course, the game doesn't have an escape option.

I don't know if you played WotR on the core (the name indicates that this is the level you should play at) or higher, but it was literally a circus there.
Beginning with Act 3, virtually every random encounter is fatal. The 4x ash giant group is the easiest fight of them all.
The worst thing is that when you fail the stealth check, you automatically start surrounded by enemies, which ends in the death of half of the team in first few rounds.
The game shows all the disadvantages of random encounters raised to the N power

RTWP works at its best when most characters can rely on a reliable type of repeatable attack as baseline and then other abilities come in as situational to influence the outcome. It's also usually important to maintain as much clear visuals as possible.

When you have several characters and a large number of repeatable/low cooldown abilities for each one of them starts to get a bit of a mess.
When visual effects get overbearing and start to smear the entire scene and overlap each other, you get a bit of a mess.
A lot of little messes overlapping make for one gigantic clusterfuck of mess.

One of the best battle systems I experienced in this sense (while tied to a fairly mediocre game, overall) wa the one used in Aarklash Legacy.

Still, even at its absolute best I rarely consider RTWP more than decently serviceable.
It's a bit like melee combat done in first person: it can work and it can even be part of an overall excellent game, but it will never be the highlight of the show when better alternatives exist.

I did. I even complained about it on this forum during the first two Alpha.

Frankly by the time the game released it was already tuned down considerably.
While I may attribute this PARTIALLY to my increase familiarity with the game, I found the difficulty at release to be absolutely manageable compared to some soul-crushing difficulties I experienced at core during Alpha 1 and 2.
I still think that OVERTUNED encounters where all enemies have RIDICULOUSLY bloated stats is the worst thing about the two Owlcat cRPGS so far and the one area where I hope to see improvements.

Sure. And this is exactly how I feel about TB combat. But when people like you say this about RTwP combat, it's considered a very reasonable thing to say, whereas when people like me say it about TB combat the reaction from the TB fans is something like: "How dare you say that! You don't know anything. You're a troll!"

As a TB fan, you have a TON of RPGs to play these days. But as a RTwP RPG fan, I don't. So that's why I will buy and play any RTwP cRPG that gets made. If a game is perfect in every other way, but is TB, the highest possible score I will give such a game is 7/10. So it is pretty easy for a RTwP RPG to get a high score from me.

Not a typo...just a bad joke

Don't be sorry.

It is true.

*wooosh*

If it's of any comfort I understood that reference.

At this point, I can't actually think of the next anticipated RTwP RPG in the short future (which is a shame, even if I prefer TB - variety is good).

Obsidian is moving forward with Avowed (1st person) and Penitence (no combat) next. Owlcat is dabbling in TB-only for now, and Inexile is also rumored to be shifting to a FPS RPG. Maybe DA4 (but I wouldn't be surprised if it was an ARPG)?

It's not that it is difficult, but that it is just unfairly difficult.
The game is literally made with the idea that the player has all possible buffs on in order to have any chance.
The enemies deal extremely high damage, so if they attack a more vulnerable character, it will most likely die within one turn. It is not a problem if you can prepare for the fight by using the tank as a decoy (enemies are so stupid that in 95% of cases, once they have targeted their target, they will attack him to the end).
The problem starts when the enemies attack by surprise (just respawn around the team).
The game is completely not adapted to it and if you play it for the first time, it ends in immediate death.
Random encounters are the worst of it all, not only do you start a fight by being surrounded until you have no opportunity to prepare for a fight in advance.
You might think that an intelligent designer in such a situation will make the enemies weaker enough that the player has a chance.
As you can see in Owlcat, rather intelligent designers don't work.

I don't even want to mention that literally every spellcaster has such a gigantic DC in this game that the defense against any effect is about 5-20%.
I don't understand why it was made like this. I do not understand what is the point enemies with more than twice the lvl level in the magic class than group. And I'm not talking about any bosses here, just ordinary mobs.

Even Kingsmaker, which I don't think is an overly good game, wasn't that bad.

I think this is partially because a person can play TB, and though it may be viewed by RTWP fans as slow and boring, a person can play TB and get through the game just fine.

In reverse, those who suck at RTWP can't get through the game if the game is 100% RTWP... or, at the very least, they struggle to get through it and have to reload all the time because someone is dying, etc. Frankly, if Pathfinder: Kingmaker didn't have the TB option, I would have quit before even beating the Stag Lord. Almost every time I've tried switching to RWTP, I wind up with characters who lose more HP or are knocked out of the fight as opposed to TB where I can fight the same battles without anyone even getting hit. Quite the difference.

For example: Replaying Icewind Dale. Not even past the dang Vale of the Dead, on Normal and not Core difficulty setting, mind you, and I've already had to reload multiple times because I lost a party member - usually the wizard - because I lost track of her and 1 skeleton or another targeted her instead of the person I wanted them to target, and she died before I realized she was being attacked.

I'll say this much. IF RTWP was improved - where your party members had even half a brain - and I mean GREATLY improved - I would actually prefer it. I tried it multiple times with Pathfinder, but the issue is just like Tuco said. All the characters just do base attacks unless I constantly pause and tell them to do something different. If they're about to die, they don't flee. They just stand there and take it until they die.

I don't mind fast-paced combat if I'm only controlling 1 character, but in games like BG3, Pathfinder, Solasta, etc., it's just a nightmare for me. I find myself constantly frustrated because of just how stupid my characters are and how I can't tell who is doing what and when. Are they hitting? Is there a reason they're missing? Wait. What? The monster is immune to certain types of attacks? Wish I'd known that when the FIRST party member tried to hit it and failed. Now it's been like 30 seconds of combat and I'm still not killing anything and half my party is dead - or maybe it's just how sucky I am at the RTWP gameplay.

Whatever the case, it's just no fun. I've tried so many times to force myself to enjoy RTWP, but I can't. And, as a result, I can't get through the games.

But, I suppose you who love RTWP could say that TB is so boring that you just can't keep interested in it. Which, I totally get that. I did actually turn off TB and went to RWTP in Pathfinder: Kingmaker when I fought the zombies outside the Stag Lord's base. There were so many, and they were so easy to kill that I did find myself quite glad that RTWP existed and I could turn it on. Lord have mercy, it was just getting plain boring constantly slaughtering countless zombies one round at a time using nothing but standard weapons anyway. Why waste spells or whatever on THAT?

I don't understand this concept either. Why do devs throw impossibly hard enemies at you on Normal difficulty when it's an RPG? Does no one realize that an RPG is meant to be played so that the player can Ironman Mode it?

If I'm tabletopping with a group of players, the suckiest thing I can do is put them in encounters that are constantly almost killing them. None of my players want to ever have their characters die. I mean, I've played with a few who think it's fun to have their characters suck and die, but most want their characters to kick monster butt on a regular basis and be heroes who win. Yes, they like challenges, but challenge does not equal near death every fight.

And that's why I'm worried about BG3 and what Larian has planned for difficulty settings. I'm afraid that in order to enjoy the game I'm going to have to force myself to play using Larian's homebrew nerfed monster difficulty which is similar to current gameplay as opposed to a well-balanced D&D 5e Difficulty where monsters have true D&D 5e stats and act like actual D&D monsters. Instead, it'll be like this:

Easy - Game as is currently with even more nerfing and homebrew so that I can kill even the Gith patrol without much of a challenge.

Normal - Game as it is currently with all the homebrew.

Challenging - D&D 5e monster stats and actual RAW rules which will be next to impossible because we'll be fighting 3 imps with 2 level 1 characters in the prologue and 3 actual intellect devourers with 2 level 1 or 2 characters before we can even build a party. So, best save and get gud, Scrub, if you want to play true D&D 5e because true D&D 5e is going to be next to impossible to play as a beginner. Only the MOST elite D&D 5e gamers can possibly play the game without getting frustrated on this setting.

I want NORMAL to be 5e rules and the game to be balanced for it. Encounters should be designed to challenge but not overwhelm players - from beginner to Moderately skilled D&Ders. Then, if you want a more challenging experience, they have a Challenging difficulty that buffs all enemies, or something like that, and they have an Easy setting that nerfs all enemies and such.

Yes there are no cRPGs with RTwP combat currently anticipated. Zero. Owlcat was pretty much the only known/reputable developer out there making them, but not anymore.

DA4 will surely be an ARPG, but if that's what it takes for me to get a RTwP party-based game, I will take it, and happily so.

You make a good argument here, which I accept. TB is indeed just way too boring for me, but at least if the game doesn't have too many combat encounters, and you also can bypass at least some of them by taking other actions, then I can suffer through the TB combat in order to enjoy the other aspects of the game. This is exactly what I'm hoping for with BG3 as the best-case scenario for me.

You are forgetting one little fact.
Most of the dnd 5e campaigns are adapted for low magic.
This means that a player should have zero or only a few magic items.
Of course, this approach is not a very good idea in the case of a fairly long game and players themselves love to get upgrades (colored items in the games did not come out of nowhere).
So we will most likely be much stronger than the typical group of a similar level.
I wouldn't worry about the clash design either. Whatever the case, larian knows how to design them (although there are some glitches like the black pits in dos2) and probably the game will not be as unfair as Owlcat games.

"one little fact"? "Most of the dnd 5e campaigns are adapted for low magic"?

I don't know if I can agree with that as being a fact.

Take Descent into Avernus. They give you a pretty nice dang magic flail almost immediately that my players gave to their dwarf fighter which did some hefty damage throughout the campaign. They also drop numerous scrolls and spellbooks for mages right in the first chapter. You go up against devils and such before Chapter 1 is completed, and I'd say it's quite full of magic. I certainly wouldn't call it "adapted for low magic."

Anyway, if I was DM'ing BG3, here is how I'd build encounters:

Prologue - Initial fights - 3 Lemures, dropped onto the nautiloid by imps who are flying around fighting intellect devourers and mind flayers and such leaving you and your baby level 1 party to fight the baby devil monsters. Lemures have 13 HP and 7 AC with a +3 to hit with their fists, and they only do 1d4 damage. They only have Cold Resistance and are immune to fire and poison. 4 Lemures would be a perfect first fight for newby D&D players and newby players to BG3. They could get their feet wet against blobbish mucky horror humanoid-ish creatures that are killed with a couple of hits regardless of your class.

Prologue - Optional fights - IF they throw intellect devourers at you, they should be called Ustilagor which are baby intellect devourers. Us should be one of them. They should be just like normal intellect devourers with maybe 11 HP, 12 AC, no Resistance, +4 to Hit, 1d4+2 damage (instead of 2d4+2), and only one attack per round. So, basically what Larian did give us except they call them Ustilagor so we know they aren't adult intellect devourers. They can't devour intellect or body thief yet because they're babies. Also, they don't do as much damage which is very important at level 1 especially for baby classes like wizard.

Prologue - Helm fight - 2 Lemures and 1 Hellsboar in the first section and 2 Lemures and 1 Imp in the second section or something similar with the imp being sort of a final Prologue boss fight. A single imp is a tough enemy for level 1 characters. It should have all normal resistances and abilities, making it a good final boss of the prologue. Whether you attack it with a party of 4 customs, Lae'zel and Shadowheart (and maybe Us), or it is just you and Lae'zel and Shadowheart... whatever... the fight should be appropriate. Keep in mind, the poison sting of an imp does 1d4+3 damage, and if you fail the Constitution save of 11 you take another 3d6 poison damage. That's a nasty end boss fight. 1 Imp is more than enough. And if you recognize you're totally outclassed and gonna get your butt handed to you, just run for the helm and don't try to kill the imp.

Beach Nautiloid fight - 3 Ustilagor (as described above) or 3 thralls using Bandit stats with only daggers would work just fine. Don't be throwing 3 full blown (even if they are injured) intellect devourers at us and then strip them of all their basic Resistances and abilities.

THAT is how you build true D&D 5e campaigns using proper stats and with the proper rules. If they did this, they'd be able to make Normal Difficulty as true D&D 5e rules with true D&D 5e monster stats and it would not be too difficult. It would also give them more room to BUILD UP to tougher monsters that require magic items and spells. By the time they reached the Underdark, THAT is when acquiring magic items and stuff would be beneficial as they face the bulette, minotaurs, a TRUE spectator, drow, etc.

Honestly, I don't care how faithful the monster stats are.
They have been changed so many times between editions that it is not consistent anyway.
Statistics are the least important part.
In the end, only few people will care.
In addition, the Intellect Devourer is a much more iconic monster that will be known to most players. How many players do Lemure know?
Ultimately, dnd itself encourages you to customize monsters to your needs.

Besides, the imp as boss fight is not very interesting, don't you think?

???

I totally don't agree. First, faithful monster stats determine what you're fighting. Not having faithful monster stats means you aren't fighting the thing you think you're fighting.

Imagine fighting a mind flayer that doesn't take control of people's minds or does anything with the mind. They just slash you with their hand claws. That's what Larian has done to the intellect devourers. I don't care what it looks like, if it doesn't act like an intellect devourer, it's not an intellect devourer.

Secondly, I don't mind at all if Larian and/or other devs create their own versions of monsters, but give them something different for a name - like Astral Plane Intellect Devourers or whatever. Part of being creative is that you invent new things, but if you're inventing new things give it new names. Don't call it a cat but make it act like a bird (unless you give it wings... lol... but then you'd have a tressym, now wouldn't you?)

Thirdly, the fact that many players have no idea what a Lemure is... that's EXACTLY why they should use it. How much more interesting is that than fighting the same things you've fought before in other games (intellect devourer in Neverwinter Nights, for example - which, by the way, used proper intellect devourer abilities and such and was very well done). That's one of my issues with BG3 right now also. Instead of using a variety of creatures and taking full advantage of the monster manual, they're giving us the same old monsters that other games have given us. Why the heck NOT throw lemures at us so players are like, "What the heck is that?" Why not throw a few more fiendish monsters in there? Bring the Blood War to the nautiloid and have winged demons like vrocks drop manes and dretches onto the decks to fight? I mean, at this point, I doubt they'd do this because of how far they are into production, but DUDE! Yes! Give us some different monsters to fight. Give us some new things and create some variety.

And lastly, I absolutely think an imp would make for an awesome Prologue Boss Fight. Creativity! That's the key. WotC has already provided a decent starting template for a working final boss imp.

Imagine this: Chrigs, the Imp - Final Boss Fight on the Nautiloid just before the helm. Chrigs has 13 AC and 15 HP (giving him a bit more than the average imp). He has a nasty scar on his head and a broken horn, and his right eye is missing - just an eye socket.

Chrigs begins by turning invisible as his three lemures charge at you to try to block you from getting to the helm. Chrigs reappears and attacks you with his sting. +5 to hit, he rolls 15 and hits. He does 4 damage and you make a Constitution save of 12. Success. You take half damage from his 3d6 poison. His roll is 9. So you've lost a total of 9 HP between the initial damage and the poison (with half damage because you succeeded in the save). You're a fighter, so most of your health is gone in one hit. Or maybe you're a mage. He just took you down in one hit.

Thankfully, you have Lae'zel and Shadowheart and Us. Lae'zel rushes up to him with sword and shield and attacks. Hits. Does 5 damage, but he's resistant. Dang! That's only 3 damage. He still has 12 left. Thankfully, Shadowheart has Guiding Bolt. She casts it and hits. 11 damage. So glad you saved it. He's only got 1 HP left because Guiding Bolt wasn't reduced.

Chrigs turns invisible again. The lemures attack, wounding Lae'zel. It's not much, but it's a bit. Shadowheart rushes up and heals you. Lae'zel attacks the lemures.

Chrigs reappears near the helm and has one of those brine bombs. He throws it at Lae'zel and deals damage to her. He then laughs and mocks her as he takes cover behind the helm. Together, your party finishes the lemures. Chrigs drinks a potion and rushes forward, positioning himself between you and the helm so he'll get an attack of opportunity with his sting if you attempt to run past him. Shadowheart tries again with Guiding Bolt and misses. Dang!

You attack. Lae'zel attacks. Still, he's standing either because of resistance or because you missed him. He transforms into a raven and flies up to something dangling over your heads. With a snip of his beak, he cuts it loose. It drops on Lae'zel.

See. There's all sorts of things you CAN do with an imp. You could give him a fun weapon. You could give him personality where he makes all sorts of fun remarks while he fights you. I'm sorry, but a taunting, devilish, mischievous imp as a boss fight for a Prologue makes a TON of sense and could be VERY rewarding and enjoyable.