OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2022
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If you want to change my mind, you have to coherently explain how someone else playing with a floating +2/+1 score where they want prevents you from choosing to leave them where the default is. How does someone else, over there out of sight, using floating ASI's, personally ruin YOUR fun. Just to throw in an aside quickly... You want a real-world situation where tasha-style floating stats genuinely take something away from the game? Here you go (read through before responding to bits and pieces - it's going somewhere I promise): In our realms lore, different races are legitimately entirely different peoples - both physically as well as culturally. some are inclined to be tall, and some are inclined to be short, and some have a natural resilience that others lake, and these are inherent differences between these different peoples. These are described in the lore, and then represented by statistical differences in the game. Differences between peoples are something that we should acknowledge and celebrate; things we should take pride in and appreciate in others; differences are good! However, lately, Wizards have gotten it into their minds that differences are bad, and that they need to be Erased. This is not making the world a better place - it's just making it a blander place, and worse, it's creating an atmosphere where being different can potentially come under fire... which is the exact opposite of the kind of inclusivity they're claiming to want to champion. Yes, our differences should be celebrated, but letting players allocate their stats doesn't wash away racial differences the way you seem to suggest. Tieflings still get their spellcasting and fire resistance, half orcs still have Menacing, Relentless Endurance, and Savage Attacks. Proficiencies are great way to express many of our differences culturally, but also things like the Goliaths Stone's Endurance show us that even the Goliath that lived cloistered as a wizard is still a very durable and hardy individual. Elves still get magic in a way that others don't with free teleportation from some options or cantrips from others to show their natural magical heritage. I would even go so far as to argue that being able to use those differences on a different style of character from the racial norm can easily highlight the differences in just the traits. Halflings are still lucky, Dwarves still get poison resistance to show their constitution, Vadelken still resist effects targeting their mental saves, making a Vadelken Barbarian a more unique Barbarian because it also gets mental save advantage from its heritage despite being a person who lived their life eating raw eggs and lifting heavy things while getting very angry. Going into stats to say makes races are different is very shallow thinking in my opinion since by moving stat increases you provide more opportunity for those racial traits to shine through. Take for example a Half Orc Sorcerer I played with once. We had a really good roleplay moment when an enemy Assassin Rogue was able to get the jump on him and got a good hit, but his racial trait kept him alive and he Misty Stepped away. We had a nice roleplay moment of my character saying he was worried that was the last of him and his friend would be gone in an instant. My friend replied "I may not be as tough as my kin, but it still takes more than a pointy knife to take down a half orc" and it was a game we were using Tasha's rules. If he had been a human wizard? Probably dead and would have left us panicking because at the time the rest of us were busy with the front line. Back to the game, here's where we're at: New races post-Tasha don't HAVE these personal racial propensities and differences any more. They simply don't have them. In an attempt to make absolute flexibility the default, they've succeeded only in creating races that are functionally bland, dry and empty of any kind of soul or feeling. they're mechanical stat blocks which are themselves mostly empty.
It continues when you point out that Players who don't want too use Tasha's floating stats Don't Have A Choice with any of the races crated post-Tasha. Free point is the only option with them, and there is no personal propensity for you to reference, to play into or to play against. You cannot play against type when there is no type to play against. I agree this is a problem that WotC has lately, it would be nice to get a guideline of what the race typically would have. Compare the Halfling Entry and the Fairy entry:
Halfling
The comforts of home are the goals of most halflings’ lives: a place to settle in peace and quiet, far from marauding monsters and clashing armies; a blazing fire and a generous meal; fine drink and fine conversation. Though some halflings live out their days in remote agricultural communities, others form nomadic bands that travel constantly, lured by the open road and the wide horizon to discover the wonders of new lands and peoples. But even these wanderers love peace, food, hearth, and home, though home might be a wagon jostling along a dirt road or a raft floating downriver.
Small and Practical
The diminutive halflings survive in a world full of larger creatures by avoiding notice or, barring that, avoiding offence. Standing about 3 feet tall, they appear relatively harmless and so have managed to survive for centuries in the shadow of empires and on the edges of wars and political strife. They are inclined to be stout, weighing between 40 and 45 pounds.
Halflings’ skin ranges from tan to pale with a ruddy cast, and their hair is usually brown or sandy brown and wavy. They have brown or hazel eyes. Halfling men often sport long sideburns, but beards are rare among them and moustaches even more so. They like to wear simple, comfortable, and practical clothes, favouring bright colours.
Halfling practicality extends beyond their clothing. They’re concerned with basic needs and simple pleasures and have little use for ostentation. Even the wealthiest of halflings keep their treasures locked in a cellar rather than on display for all to see. They have a knack for finding the most straightforward solution to a problem, and have little patience for dithering.
Kind and Curious
Halflings are an affable and cheerful people. They cherish the bonds of family and friendship as well as the comforts of hearth and home, harbouring few dreams of gold or glory. Even adventurers among them usually venture into the world for reasons of community, friendship, wanderlust, or curiosity. They love discovering new things, even simple things, such as an exotic food or an unfamiliar style of clothing.
Halflings are easily moved to pity and hate to see any living thing suffer. They are generous, happily sharing what they have even in lean times.
Blend into the Crowd
Halflings are adept at fitting into a community of humans, dwarves, or elves, making themselves valuable and welcome. The combination of their inherent stealth and their unassuming nature helps halflings to avoid unwanted attention.
Halflings work readily with others, and they are loyal to their friends, whether halfling or otherwise. They can display remarkable ferocity when their friends, families, or communities are threatened.
Pastoral Pleasantries
Most halflings live in small, peaceful communities with large farms and well-kept groves. They rarely build kingdoms of their own or even hold much land beyond their quiet shires. They typically don’t recognise any sort of halfling nobility or royalty, instead looking to family elders to guide them. Families preserve their traditional ways despite the rise and fall of empires.
Many halflings live among other races, where the halflings’ hard work and loyal outlook offer them abundant rewards and creature comforts. Some halfling communities travel as a way of life, driving wagons or guiding boats from place to place and maintaining no permanent home.
Affable and Positive
Halflings try to get along with everyone else and are loath to make sweeping generalisations—especially negative ones.
Of Dwarves: “Dwarves make loyal friends, and you can count on them to keep their word. But would it hurt them to smile once in a while?”
Of Elves: “They’re so beautiful! Their faces, their music, their grace and all. It’s like they stepped out of a wonderful dream. But there’s no telling what’s going on behind their smiling faces—surely more than they ever let on.”
Of Humans: “Humans are a lot like us, really. At least some of them are. Step out of the castles and keeps, go talk to the farmers and herders and you’ll find good, solid folk. Not that there’s anything wrong with the barons and soldiers—you have to admire their conviction. And by protecting their own lands, they protect us as well.”
Exploring Opportunities
Halflings usually set out on the adventurer’s path to defend their communities, support their friends, or explore a wide and wonder-filled world. For them, adventuring is less a career than an opportunity or sometimes a necessity.
Halfling Traits
Your halfling character has a number of traits in common with all other halflings.
Ability Score Increase
Your Dexterity score increases by 2.
Age
A halfling reaches adulthood at the age of 20 and generally lives into the middle of his or her second century.
Creature Type
You are a Humanoid.
Size
Halflings average about 3 feet tall and weigh about 40 pounds. Your size is Small.
Speed
Your base walking speed is 25 feet.
Lucky
When you roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.
Brave
You have advantage on saving throws against being frightened.
Halfling Nimbleness
You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.
Languages
You can speak, read, and write Common and Halfling. The Halfling language isn’t secret, but halflings are loath to share it with others. They write very little, so they don’t have a rich body of literature. Their oral tradition, however, is very strong. Almost all halflings speak Common to converse with the people in whose lands they dwell or through which they are travelling.
Sub-races
The two main kinds of halfling, lightfoot and stout, are more like closely related families than true subraces. Choose one of these subraces or one from another source.
Lightfoot Halfling
As a lightfoot halfling, you can easily hide from notice, even using other people as cover. You’re inclined to be affable and get along well with others. In the Forgotten Realms, lightfoot halflings have spread the farthest and thus are the most common variety.
Lightfoots are more prone to wanderlust than other halflings, and often dwell alongside other races or take up a nomadic life. In the world of Greyhawk, these halflings are called hairfeet or tallfellows.
Ability Score Increase
Your Charisma score increases by 1.
Naturally Stealthy
You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
Stout Halfling
As a stout halfling, you’re hardier than average and have some resistance to poison. Some say that stouts have dwarven blood. In the Forgotten Realms, these halflings are called stronghearts, and they’re most common in the south.
Ability Score Increase
Your Constitution score increases by 1.
Stout Resilience
You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage.
Ghostwise Halfling
Ghostwise halflings trace their ancestry back to a war among halfling tribes that sent their ancestors into flight from Luiren. Ghostwise halflings are the rarest of the hin, found only in the Chondalwood and a few other isolated forests, clustered in tight-knit clans.
Many ghostwise clans select a natural landmark as the centre of their territory, and members carry a piece of that landmark with them at all times. Clan warriors known as nightgliders bond with and ride giant owls as mounts.
Because these folk are clannish and mistrustful of outsiders, ghostwise halfling adventurers are rare. Ask your DM if you can play a member of this subrace, which has the halfling traits in the Player’s Handbook, plus the subrace traits below.
Ability Score Increase
Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Silent Speech
You can speak telepathically to any creature within 30 feet of you. The creature understands you only if the two of you share a language. You can speak telepathically in this way to one creature at a time.
((Leaving out the other more recent sub-type additions with critical role etc., and the eberron-specific setting options))
Now look at the post-Tasha race Fairy:
Fairy
The Feywild is home to many fantastic peoples, including fairies. Fairies are a wee folk, but not nearly as much so as their pixie and sprite friends. The first fairies spoke Elvish, Goblin, or Sylvan, and encounters with human visitors prompted many of them to learn Common as well.
Infused with the magic of the Feywild, most fairies look like Small elves with insectile wings, but each fairy has a special physical characteristic that sets the fairy apart. For your fairy, roll on the Fey Characteristics table or choose an option from it. You’re also free to come up with your own characteristic if none of the suggestions below fit your character.
Fey Characteristics
d8 Characteristic
1 Your wings are like those of a bird.
2 You have shimmering, multicolored skin.
3 You have exceptionally large ears.
4 A glittering mist constantly surrounds you.
5 You have a small spectral horn on your forehead, like a little unicorn horn.
6 Your legs are insectile.
7 You smell like fresh brownies.
8 A noticeable, harmless chill surrounds you.
Ability Score Increases
When determining your character’s ability scores, increase one score by 2 and increase a different score by 1, or increase three different scores by 1.
Creature Type
You are a Fey.
Size
You are Small.
Speed
Your walking speed is 30 feet.
Life Span
The typical life span of a player character in the D&D multiverse is about a century, assuming the character doesn’t meet a violent end on an adventure. Members of some races, such as dwarves and elves, can live for centuries.
Fairies have a life span of about a century.
Height and Weight
Player characters, regardless of race, typically fall into the same ranges of height and weight that humans have in our world. If you’d like to determine your character’s height or weight randomly, consult the Random Height and Weight table in the Player’s Handbook, and choose the row in the table that best represents the build you imagine for your character.
Languages
Your character can speak, read, and write Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for the character.
Fairy Magic
You know the druidcraft cantrip.
Starting at 3rd level, you can cast the faerie fire spell with this trait. Starting at 5th level, you can also cast the enlarge/reduce spell with this trait. Once you cast faerie fire or enlarge/reduce with this trait, you can’t cast that spell with it again until you finish a long rest. You can also cast either of those spells using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level.
Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells when you cast them with this trait (choose when you select this race).[/u]
Flight
Because of your wings, you have a flying speed equal to your walking speed. You can’t use this flying speed if you’re wearing medium or heavy armour.
And, uhh... that's it for Fairy. It's completely soulless, due in part to half the categories saying basically "do what you want" and offering no guidance to give any real flavour to the race as a people. As special mention, the new lines that they've put in for all new races regarding age, height and weight.... Let's just look at those again: In fairness, Fairies were an anomaly and nobody at all was excited when they saw the stat block and it was even recieved negatively from the UA just to be released as is. The other races, like the Thri-Kreen in an unreleased UA have way more features based on race. Fairies as an example is a bit of a straw man move because advocates on both sides agree Fairy just is boring and kinda sucks, it was made with very little care or attention on its own. If you want to complain about Fairy, I'm right there with you. It's boring and it sucks and the vast majority of players agree. You play Fairy as a meme, it's sad. The typical adventurer's lifespan is about a century? No it isn't. It is if you're playing a human... but not if you're playing the majority of other available races. If you are an aaracocra player, your typical lifespan is not a century at all. This is one more of the signs where they're making sweeping generalisations in order to abolish 'differences' between the races, or at least to act like they aren't there... Human, Dragonborn, Tiefling, Half Orc, Leonin, Satyr, Bugbears, Kenku, Hobgoblins, Goblins, Lizardfolk, Tabaxi, Kalashtar, Shifter, Gith, and Centaur all live human length lives or shorter, so it's actually a pretty fair assesment to say it's normal to have been born within the century and at that many races it's definitely easier to list the ones that live longer than a century, so I can understand from a writers perspective why they might have said that instead of specifying an arbitrary number, some races even being "we don't know how long they live yet" like the Simic Hybrid or Verdan. Oddly Minotaur doesn't have an age listed, so added a generalization actually does let me know it's probably within the century for age. In height and weight: "Player characters, regardless of race, typically fall into the same ranges of height and weight that humans have in our world." No they Freaking don't! Small characters in particular, as Fairies ARE, absolutely do not fall into the height and weight norms of humans! There is no height and weight norm listed for this race, and the PHB race table has not been updated to account for it, so we literally have No general racial propensity guideline for average members of this species At All. Playing as an average member of this race is not an option for us, because there is no average suggested. I think what it's saying here is there is a general idea for what constitutes a small or medium creature in 5e already, so instead of listing so many variations on height one can have, it's easier from a writers perspective to say that as a race they are, in fact, small, but not tiny, and therefore can fall within a size catergory. It's normal classification stuff, to be honest. I just wish WotC would stop being scared of making a large race... looking at yoou, Goliath, Loxodon, and Firbolg. This is the result of the move that is being made, and it's down right destructive for the game. Yes, floating ability scores are only one small part of this, but the refrain I keep hearing from various supporters of it is:
"It's an Option! You don't Have to use it! You can still use the old defaults if you want! don't take away our fun or force us to have fun your way!"
To which the unfortunate truth is: No, it's NOT an option with the new races... I DO have to use it if I want to play one of those races. There IS NO 'default'... and Wizards ARE forcing me to have fun the Tasha way, and taking away my option not too, because they are NOT supplying the default average propensity of the race. What is the 'default' ability score allocation for a Fairy? Not just what you think it should be - point to an official listing that tells us what it is. You can't, because there isn't one. Again, I agree, it would be good for people to have a baseline. Let me put it another way: How do I avoid min-maxing a character's ability scores without engaging in circuitous reasoning? By which I mean, I choose how to allocate my rolls, and as a roleplayer, I choose to allocate those based on the character I'm making, rather than pure statistical consideration... but I'm still making a wizard; a half-orc wizard who ran away to candlekeep as a teenager... so I put that 17 I rolled into his Int, to express the fact that he's spent his teen too adult years exploring and enjoying a love of learning that he wasn't able to express in his home tribe, and really dedicating the whole of his time and effort to that. Next, I'll put the 8 I rolled into his Constitution, to represent the fact that he's really not looked after himself physically in the intervening years, and stay sup too late, doesn't get enough sleep, and has generally given himself a less robust immune system from his cloistered lifestyle. I'll put the 14 I rolled into his Dex, next, because even though he's not particularly active, his reflexes are still fast, and his hand precision has been kept up with a lot of fine manual work managing scrolls, sorting catalogues, and truthfully his data entry speed is pretty exceptional at this point. Next I'll put the 10 into strength, He's carrying a lot of books about most of the day, but he's not really working out, not to the extent that the lifestyle in his home tribe would have seen, and his general muscle mass is a pale shadow of what it might have been. I've got an 11 and a 12 left, I'll give the twelve to Wisdom, and the eleven to Charisma - he still retains some of his basic survival knowledge and his senses are sharp. In particular he's grown accustomed to listening for slight and small sounds in the expansive, generally very quiet archives. Meanwhile, he's passably social, and able to communicate what he needs in a friendly manner to his colleagues, but it's nothing to write home about. Not a shy and silent wallflower, and not really a big socialite either.
Now... where do I put my plus 2? And, more pointedly, what reason do I give for putting it somewhere that isn't just a direct repeat of a reason I already gave for a particular stat allocation? How do I place my plus 2 and plus 1 in a way that is motivated in character, but not just doubling up on an existing character element? How, in a way that doesn't conflict with or negate one of those elements? How, in a way that is not purely game-talk mechanical "this because it's my casting stat and I want it high" or "this because that will bring up this modifier by one and even it out"? Explain how this helps a roleplayer, rather than hindering them by pushing them into making game-centric choices based on min-maxinig rather than character?
Because here's the thing... when races have natural propensities towards different attributes, that's fine - it's good to acknowledge and celebrate our differences; when different peoples have different propensities, we can allocate them as reminders of our heritage and lineage, regardless of whether we're playing to type with them, or against type, despite them... but they're there, and that's Good. Is a halfling wizard at a penalty compared too an elven wizard? No They Aren't! They can both attain the same upper cap - 20. They can both be equally good wizards as one another, despite their racial differences. At the end of the day, everyone, no matter what race they are, can attain that same absolute pinnacle of ability... even if their heritage gives some people a head start, and means others may need to work harder... an individual of each can achieve the same end just as well! And that's Good! that's something we should be celebrating! Sure... maybe Bordo Underhill always knew, in the early days, that Sylanna Swiftwind had a little bit of an edge on him in their spellcasting pursuits, but they travelled together, learned together and grew as adventurers... and then, one day, at the end of all things, when they are standing together facing the ultimate darkness of their world and they put out their hands... Bordo's prismatic spray is every bit just as powerful, potent difficult to resist as Sylanna's... and that's beautiful. Why would you remove that? Because the Tasha's change IS removing that.
The DMG has always encouraged making modifications to characters that suit players' idea and desires for their origins... this isn't new, and has always been there. It maybe needed to be reiterated more strongly and brought to the fore again, but it's been a thing, for a long time. Tasha's floating ability scores should definitely be an option. It should be listed as an optional alternative, with a blurb that describes the fact that special individuals may warrant special allocations... But it not only should not be the default, but it CANNOT be the default - because a default needs to actually exist, and post Tasha races are not giving us those. I assume you're using standard array in this example so I'd like to point out you do not get a 17 you get a 15. This is also an easy one to explain away. While sure you would probably be taking 1 in INT to round it to 16, you can also say that while you are a half orc, you have human in your blood. You were always smarter than most half orcs around you. But you are still a half orc, so despite your lifestyle choices you somehow turned out more durable than you probably should, so while you are probably taking +2 Con to not have a negative modifier, it's easily justifiable with race without feeling like purely mechanical necessity. You can do this for most races. Tiefling is not charismatic because he was born in the wilds and didn't get a chance to develop social skills, but their mental skills are still sharp so they got Wisdom instead. Elf spent years exercising and dieting hard so he lost some dexterity because of how his strength training didn't work enough on the stabilizer muscles, but he's definitely and the dexterity did grant an initial boost to the workout regimen. Orc in the above example is also a good example. Celebrating differences should be giving races features that fit the race, Half Orc being a great example of those features, rather than your stat increases, Dragonborn and Fairies being the worst offenders of not getting anything back. There is no racial trait the exemplifies Dragonborn strength, just a breath weapon and elemental resistance. In this regard Dragonborn are the same as Fairies, which is exactly why they get rewritten in Fizbins. Now Dragonborn do have traits that distinguish them. Your racial differences are better expressed through traits, not stats, and that's because your characters stats should reflect their lifestyle choices, not their born heritage. WotC is not washing away racial differences, they just aren't doing a good job of giving new races distinguishing features. It is a races general lifestyle that has dictated their stat blocks previously, not the races born characteristics. Even before Tasha's I always thought of racial ASI as little more than indications of the races societal lifestyle and cultural differences over being literal racial differences. Not all Half Orcs are bumbling and brutal oafs, not all Tieflings are charismatic folk, not all elves are elegant and graceful, just that the majority of them are, and being different from your race should also be good. One might even be able to say that being a member of a race that behaves different because of their stat blocks should also be celebrated along with their racial differences from other races. He is his own race, but he is also still himself and not one of a hivemind. And anyone that says "You don't have to use it" is either a belligerent person who can't actually have a real discussion about the topic, or is dealing with someone like that. You make some good points, I just don't necessarily agree with them. Saying you have to keep racial stat increases to appreciate the differences in race is, in my opinion, a little short sighted when races should get unique traits with that choice rather than just being an aesthetic option. In fact, the abundance of traits is actually what makes the PHB Dragonborn and the Fairy not only boring, but also just weak, because there was no flavor or traits to separate them from literally anything else. In being boring, they were also made to be weak regardless of their class choices. And worth noting, that didn't stop people from playing Dragonborn Wizards. A weak race on a class that didn't synergize well. It's nice to have the option to synergize in at least one regard, being the ASI. Now dragonborn are so much better and it's not because of their ASI, it's their actual traits that define the race. Take PF2e for example, you get an ASI based on your background because your lifestyle should effect your actual stats. That's my argument. tl;dr traits define your race, ASI defines your heritage, and not all members of a race live the same lifestyle, so I don't see a reason to force them to have those stats, but that doesn't mean you have to dismiss race when choosing your ASI. It's just roleplay.
Last edited by Belyavor; 12/06/22 04:48 AM.
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