Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Wyll Is A Coward

This is an interesting scene from Wyll's perspective. I've never seen this version of it before. I'm looking forward to being able to play the origin characters.

I notice that Wyll tends to get dismissed as bland by a lot of players. I disagree with that. In my opinion, there's undeniable depth to him.

That said, I believe there are three things working against him:

1. The player encounters him later than the other companions. By this point, the player has probably connected with other companions, making Wyll a less likely choice for a party capped at four.

2. His stats are a mess. Wyll is the Blade of Frontiers, but he sucks with a blade. And no, that's not some clever part of his story, suggesting he's all sizzle and no steak. He should be formidable. That's why he made his pact. It's just my opinion, obviously, but this needs an overhaul. Rearranging Wyll's stats and bringing in a strong version of the Blade Pact, maybe something resembling the Hexblade.

3. His reputation feels unearned. This is not to say that it *is* unearned. It just feels that way at the moment. Because of this, his personality can rub folks the wrong way. I think the occasional nod to his legendary status from someone other than himself would help. This happens a couple times in the game already, but highlighting those moments would be beneficial, at least in my opinion.

He certainly has depths; mostly they serve to make his character increasingly repugnant, for the time being.

I don't care for Wyll because he's a hypocrite and a liar, and condescending in a way that treats your character like an idiot - not that other origin characters don't: *most* of them condescend and treat your character like an idiot, because it's been written as the player character's *place* to be the 'dumb idiot' in the conversation, in order to let the origin characters act superior... it's poor writing and everything to do with the origin characters is riddled with it.

But... Wyll is someone that you can successfully identify the situation, call him out on it, and have him lie directly to your face *and* act like you're an idiot for suggesting it... You know he's lying, he knows he's lying, he knows that you know he's lying... and you can catch him, and call him out, multiple time, and every time he lies directly to you, while being fully aware that you both know that he's lying... Any you aren't allowed to say or do ANYTHING about this... and then when the 'big reveal' happens and he tells you more, you have to act dumb founded by this... and he never apologises for lying to you multiple times.

He wants to be seen as a hero, and a part of him genuinely wants too be a hero, but he has very *Little* interest in actually doing any of the things that will earn him that unless they line up with his personal goals.

I liked Wyll well enough when he wasn't a regular member in my party and I didn't hit all of his story beats particularly closely... but once I played with him full time, I came to realise that he's legitimately a jerk and an arsehole, and genuinely not a very good person. I grew to dislike interacting with him at all, once I'd played with him properly.

Is that a little harsh? He's supposed to have been brought so low he would make a deal with a devil.
Also from they way you tell it, it seems that you're more annoyed by the limited way Tav can react to Wyll.

I feel the condescension problem from our companions but I think a lot of that can stem from all the exposition they've been given, a thankless task.

I don't know. I gotta say, I agree with Niara a lot on this one. Wyll has always been my least favorite. I hardly ever put him in my party. I had the same impression and experiences as Niara. I didn't have him in the party much to begin with because immediately I saw through him and felt like I wasn't really able to see through him. Then, when I did play with him in the party and went through his questline, I was quite put out even more.

And furthermore, his plan is STUPID. REALLY REALLY STUPID. "I have this grand plan. Let's waltz into the goblin camp and... um... just butcher the three leaders. Done. What do you think?" Stupidest idea in the whole world.

You know what was a smart idea that I have done multiple times?
Now, if Wyll had offered THAT as a suggestion and said that was his grand plan, I'd have been like, "Hmmm. Yeah. I like it." But instead, he disapproves if you take that route.

But that's not all. I also don't like him because his class is weak, and he's actually quite weak. With only 2 SRs per day, the Warlock is stuck at 6 spells slots at best. They're booty weak because they don't have many good weapons and armor, and Wyll is not even done right based on 5e rules. They've given him the ability to use a rapier without making him be a Pact of the Blade Warlock. So, it's like he's a Pact of the Blade Warlock, being allowed to use a weapon like a rapier as a class proficiency, but then he doesn't get any of the other Pact of the Blade abilities. And furthermore, you get to pick which Pact he takes.

Yeah. I had to make myself like Wyll. I had to REALLY make myself like him, and even to this day, he's the one I least have in my party. I even prefer the much hated Astarion - who I actually like a lot and is one of my favorite origin characters because I find him humorous - over Wyll.

+100 to Niara ...
Interaction with Wyll is lacking any ... well, interaction. :-/

As usualy Larian forces us to stand there and smile like an idiot while their story, no matter how bad curently, is happening in front of us ... and we cannot stop it. :-/

I find Wyll to be a character with most potential - unlike other companions he feels better integrated into the world. Even if he didn't have tadpole he is active before you come, has his own agenda that potentially aligns with your. His "secret" is as easy to see through as with other companions but it works in the favour of the character here - he is a shallow fraud hiding behind thin veil of heroism. There are multiple compelling directions that character could develop towards. He is also the only character who makes sense to me as lvl1. Sure, he talks bit, but is clearly a small and incompetent individual, out of his depth when dealing with goblins, not to mention bigger threat.

One thing I am not clearn on - is he really a folk hero (has anyone hear about him? Or does he proclaim himself as one. Kids are all over him, but I guess kids can be manipulated into liking anything.

Admittedly I'm always wary of judging any character arc in this game, since presumably we aren't witnessing anything more than their starting point so far in EA.

You can ask him to leave at any time, or simply not recruit him? You can also callh im otu many times in the dialogues, so how can you not stop it?

He's a bit of a narcassist and it works great. People are so sure that his stats placed wrong by the devs, and it doesn't fit his story. But if you view him as a bragging narcissist trying to hide how inferior he actually is (just like Trump does), then everything about Wyll makes sens.e It's not bad writing, it's excellent writing. But if he's not meant to be a narcissist, then I agree.

So basically I agree with Tuco, you cannot fdraw any conclusions at this point. It' s not like Lae'zel at this stage has a lot of depth and people don't complain about her.

Meh. I just don't care for him. I also don't care for Trump. I also don't like how he (and other characters, for that matter) have these "big secrets", and when revealed, as Niara said, we're super surprised. I would like some dialogue options to say things like, [Sarcastically] "Oh my gosh! Seriously? I had no idea! You're what now? A Warlock with a devil pact? I did NOT see that coming."

But then, as I said, I feel that way about Shadowheart's big reveal too. I'd love some options to pull both of them aside BEFORE their big reveals. "SH. Are you a Sharran Cleric? You've got onyx stones all over your armor, you hate Selune, you sprout off all sorts of questionable things... Come on. Just admit it already. Sheesh! You're wearing Dark Justiciar armor for crying out loud."

And with Wyll. "Um. Wyll. Listen. I know you've got a pact with a devil or something. It's obvious. Can we just admit it, discuss it, and move on? If I can help you, I'd like to. But from now on, let's just be honest with each other. Okay?"

I fully get we don't have the full character story, but this far Wyll is my least favorite for all the reasons I mentioned.

It seems you mistake preventing something and stoping it ...

You see if you not recruit him, or dont talk to him ... there is nothing to stop, since his lies were never there in the fisrt place.

In addition, this is hardly even valid reaction ...
Ignoring holes in Wylls story they dont dissapear, he dont sudently become perfectly written character.

His narcisim is not a problem ... the problem is "well kept secret" as with all others ...

Only blind man would not see that Astarion have suspiciously pale skin and pointy teeth ...
Shadowheart have her whole body covered by Obsidian and suspiciously many snarky comentaries and Selune, the main rival or her Goddess ...
And Wyll? Through your connection you know about Myzora since your first meeting, you can feel magic in his eye, he keep talking to himself as when he is talking with someone else (wich we know he does) ...

The problem isnt they does those things ... okey, if Larian wants to create idiots who will tatoo on their forehead "i am serving evil God" and then pretend they are good characters, fine its their bad decision ...
But forcing our characters to accept such obvious and stupid lie IS bad design.

That is what Niara (unless i missunderstand her) is complaining about and i completely agree with her.
The funny part is how easily it could be resolved:
Tav: "I dont believe you."
Character: "Well too bad for you, since im done talking about it."
*End conversation.*

And voila!
Your character is no longer forced to be thrusty idiot who accepts anything people tells him.

Simple isnt it?

//Edit: Yeah ... basicaly what GM said ...

//2. Edit:
One more think i forgot to say ...
Personaly i dont think that their characters are necesarily "bad" ... its more like our lack of options to smash it over their own face that pisses me off.

Actualy i believe such attitude would work well for Wyll ... eactly bcs he is such smug, narcisist, and self-interested moron ... that he WOULD actualy believe that nobody can ever know his dark secret, bcs he is "so good" in hiding it.
That would actualy fit the character perfectly.

The problem is that our character HAVE TO play along ... and that is what i dislike.

So if Larian would simply add us here and there some reaction that would be something like:
"What kind of moron you think i am to believe such bullshit?"

ESPECIALY after our character SUCEED in Arcana check, so s/he LITTERALY KNOWS there is something magical in his eye ... and it is most definietly not "Just a pebble." as he claims, convinced that nobody could ever see through his "masterfull lie".

Then the whole situation would be much better.

I usually take Wyll. He is part of my team caster party!

He starts the game focused on revenge, but hopefully he can pick a different path by the end of the game. 😊

More variety of dialogue options is always good.

I never realized that we get to choose what pact Wyll has despite it already being established, funny.

I view Wyll's plan to just go and kill the goblin leadership a little more kindly because everything about Wyll's character tells me his powers let him grow used to not having to think things through, that and, going in and killing the leadership is usually what I do too.

With that in mind I'm not sure if I should think he's incompetent or if his braggadocio is just a result of his time being the Blade of Frontier. We've got a petulant prince-ling with daddy issues, who's ego was taken down in a brutal way by the goblins leading to him making a pact that gave him powers enough to be the hero he felt he deserved to be. So he's vain, short-sighted, vengeful...and a good person. The most interesting insight we get to Wyll's past I think comes from the Flaming Fist captain at the burning inn, Wyll was a fuck-up sent to military boarding school where his being a fuck-up got a lot of people killed, and now he's willing to do anything to expunge the guilt of that, or he was for a time.

We're at the stage of the story where everyone has baggage full of dirty laundry, we're getting the first wave of dirty laundry aired; eventually we'll be making choices that directly affect everyone's character journey, it seems everyone will have something at moonrise (or near there). For Wyll we'll be meeting Mizora

I know we've all harped on it a lot, but this really sums up ALL the origin characters. Seriously, is there a single one that doesn't do this?

Same! To me it seems too risky to set Minthara on the grove, even if you mean to betray her!

from the official last video, I do think that if you dislike a companion, you just refuse him/her join your party at the first time.

when the plot advancement, you still will meet the companions that are not in your party in specific places and then take what you need each other. even if they are going opposing camp, our player character can kill them by the way without contradiction.

I think Spell&Spield dislikes Wyll, because his lies and the backstabbing possibility is as high as Astarion, their backstabbing possibilities are obviiosly higher than other companions.

I agree our player character ought to have more decisive dialogues, example Wyll, our player character should be able to reveal his lie the cause and effect , not just yell Wyll "get out my party".

them same, when our player character has a low relationship with Astration, I do hope our player character will have the priority to get the dialogue that "please Astarion leaves the party".

yes , I do think our player character should show the smart off, and get more freedom in dialogues.

It is a little odd that outside of certain events, once in the party we can't kick people out.

This might have to do with how our party doesn't really have anyone in charge, but I bet even if put to a vote most of the current roster would still probably want Astarion out.

certainly, I do think companions can vote for certain events.

detect Astarion a vampire, this ought to be a event that companions can vote.
and the result must be "Astarion out".

acturally Astarion is a corrupt one and is recruited for the evil path, if you are going a grey path or even a good path, you will find he always disapprove your decisions.

and I think the game designers shouldn't spend time to make a companion to be the player character.

because a companion can never be the destiny, even they can not be the destiny backup.

a companion might be have his/her legendary story in the game, and our player character's decisions will sway his/her story, no matter bring up their legendary or strangle his/her ambition in halfway.

as I suggest earlier, the game designers should put more efforts in our player character's freedom in dialogues and companions' character.

and I replenish, the "binding system" that is the true loyalty compares with the "relationship system".
with the "binding system" your player character will have the true influence with the binding members and the right to speak in the party(you have more votes in the party).

I take Wyll sometimes though I don't like him as a character. Currently I'm embracing his phony persona. In my current playthrough Wyll hides his Warlock status by claiming to be a Sorcerer. So no Eldritch Blast as I assume Gale would have identified it rather quickly and the so-called jig is up. Now I'm basing this on the fact that so far I have not been able to find anyone other than Warlock capable of using Eldritch Blast, I'm no D&D expert so please correct me if I am wrong. I also assume that any Wizard would be able to notice this spell since it is described as a purple beam and the the the obvious gestures and sounds Wyll would use in casting it would also give it away. I have been careful to have Wyll only select and employ spells that a Sorcerer can use. Another example is I don't allow him to cast Imp or Quasit. Obviously this limits his casting ability somewhat but after all he is the "Blade of Frontiers" not the "Spellcaster of Frontiers". So I have him equipped with 2 short swords. I realize he is not proficient with martial weapons but hey he's essentially a fraud and a narcissist. As the story progresses and the truth comes out I'll deal with it then and have him be more open about his true nature.

One other time my character was an evil Warlock so I didn't take Wyll but did take Gale as a deliberate attempt to corrupt him since he is a somewhat overbearing know it all. I imagined my Warlock could influence Gale to do things not in his best interest such as agreeing to the Hag's deal (hey I wanted to find out what would happen) and reading the Thay magic book. By the time my character betrayed the Grove Gale pretty much hated my guts but he was compromised and complicit in our schemes so I felt that he felt he had no choice but to tag along.





After so many playthrough's I find things like this fun and interesting and they often lead to surprising situations and outcomes that I find entertaining.