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#817381 23/06/22 06:11 PM
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hello there.

The main problem of DOS2 playing custom character was that it felt pretty much empty compared to origin characters with full quest arc or their own. And who doesn't want more content? Thus nobody played custom characters

BG 3

By now, apart from [Baldurian] and [Underdark] tags our custom characters is a blank sheet. Again. And again compare this to any of the origin characters(for example, you are a vampire spawn, who seeks to become free of his master, that's a backstory) and your choice will be obvious, because origin character = more content.
I know, if Larian didn't plan to create a custom character quest arc from the beginning, they wouldn't do it now just because of this post(or any posts really, it would too hard to implement by now), but they must provide with something. Something that makes you "oooh i'd rather be playing my custom lolth-drow sorcerer than Shadowheart"

Suggestions

1) Ideal approach is to give us full backstory(how did we get snatched by mind flayers, what are our connections in this world and so on) and a quest arc(what problem we solve apart from main quest based on our backstory). It is very in the spirit of dnd, because when you play tabletop, your character backstory is very important, because it basically motivates you to become an adventurer. And a good DM will find a way to connect global plot with your backstory
2) I don't know what a realistic approach is. Maybe some text-cutscenes of your backstory? Or just one cut scene? And then maybe a small quest arc that ends in act 1, so there woulb be no long lasting permutations? I don't know, let's discuss


add hexblade warlock, pls
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I honestly think it is too late to implement anything like that. For this to be actually good (and it would need to be; I can't imagine the outrage of the community if this feature was half-assed) they would need to make this 'custom quest and backstory' very vast and impactful. Otherwise it wouldn't feel good enough, afterall we all have high expectations (rightly so, I believe).

Something that I think might be possible is to have a choice were you come from roughly, to introduce some dialouge choices (like the 'Baldurian' tag you can get already). I don't like that you are tagged with 'Baldurian' as soon as you play a half-elf, for example, so having a choice here would be nice.
A few rough choices of origin could go a long way already, and might be the only feasable option this far into development. At some point they would probably like to finish this game.

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Yes, I understand that it is impossible to make such vast changes if it wasn't planned
But then again, origin characters just win, theres no reason to play custom, if you compare them

Last edited by mercurial_ann; 23/06/22 06:26 PM.

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If you go by pure content, you're might be right. However, according to an interview with Swen that I saw once, a vast majority of players actually choose to play custom characters in their first playthrough (I dont remember the exact interview rn, but if I do, I'll post it here later). If I remember correctly, that statistic was from a DOS game, and I can't imagine it being different with BG3.

So custom characters do have appeal - to me personally too - and I think it is literally because this is a role playing game, a D&D game, and in such a game you usually play your own character whos backstory you came up with yourself.

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For your first playthrough maybe. But
Origin character lets you make the same decisions as custom one + giving you additional quest line


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Like I said, the majority of players seem to make this choice (according to that interview with Swen), not just me. I understand your reasoning and I am not arguing against you here. In fact I would love to see some content that is there specifically for custom characters, but I think it is an incredibly difficult thing to achieve, since everybody will want a different backstory and it is impossible to please everyone with such a feature. In trying to please everyone, you please no one.

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I would love for their to be DAO-style Origins for BG3. Alas, it is probably too late for Larian to start working on them. It'd be a bogglingly-vast amount of work considering all the race-background-class combinations.

@Niara has, at various times, suggested an interesting way of introducing backgrounds and personalities. My explanation certainly won't do it justice, but I'll attempt it. After the tadpole-insertion scene, there is a dream scene where the tadpole is trying to get to know you (to better control you I guess?). They ask various fairly vague questions about your history, what drives you, your personality, etc. Your answers help define your Tav, adding personality/history tags. Later in the game, things can differ depending on what you answered, you could get some quests related to your answers, etc.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
@Niara has, at various times, suggested an interesting way of introducing backgrounds and personalities. My explanation certainly won't do it justice, but I'll attempt it. After the tadpole-insertion scene, there is a dream scene where the tadpole is trying to get to know you (to better control you I guess?). They ask various fairly vague questions about your history, what drives you, your personality, etc. Your answers help define your Tav, adding personality/history tags. Later in the game, things can differ depending on what you answered, you could get some quests related to your answers, etc.

I love this one, haven't seen this suggestion before! Props to Niara if they read this. I think this would be a great compromise.

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The writers just can't do as much with a custom character as they can with a character they create. Your custom character may be a city slicker with a fast tongue while mine might be a hermit who's riddled with social anxiety.

Let's face it, the game can't even say your character's name out loud. There are baked in limitations when it comes to custom characters.

Sure, it would be nice to see little things here and there. I always appreciate the effort, and I'm naturally connected to my own characters, but I accept that there's more the writers can do with the origins. And I expect more out of the origin character stories than I do my own.

I'm really looking forward to playing each of them. I hope the various playthroughs feel very different depending on whom I pick.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
@Niara has, at various times, suggested an interesting way of introducing backgrounds and personalities. My explanation certainly won't do it justice, but I'll attempt it. After the tadpole-insertion scene, there is a dream scene where the tadpole is trying to get to know you (to better control you I guess?). They ask various fairly vague questions about your history, what drives you, your personality, etc. Your answers help define your Tav, adding personality/history tags. Later in the game, things can differ depending on what you answered, you could get some quests related to your answers, etc.
That's a great idea, it will definitely tie you with with your character more. And sounds realistic as well


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To be completely honest ...
I dont like it, it dont want it, please leave my character as empty as possible since that is the only way i can imagine there whatever the fun i want.

No matter what you create, no matter how incredibly complex backstories people will be able to create, you will never contain everything. :-/
So keep this backstories for characters that are prepared for us, Geralt, Sheppard, Cal Kestis, Astarion ... but let our custom characters to be blank page.

There is only one way in my opinion in CRPG to allow players play *their* character ... and that are dialogue choices ... and that should be Larian focus right now, bcs as they are now, they are incredibly limiting. :-/


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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I've suggested this before but I would love something similar to Guild Wars 2 where you answer a couple questions about your character at the beginning and that determines some personal quests you have to go on. Even if it were something as simple as "What is your goal in life?" and you could choose treasure, fame, power, helping people, etc. and that would give you a personal mission that unfolds during the game. But agreed, unless they've already planned on implementing that, it's probably a long shot at this point.

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Curiously, to anyone who likes the idea of a questionnaire for custom characters at creation... what do you imagine that you will get out of it?

I don't mean in vague terms, but in specifics. Is it going to learn that your character's stepfather was an alcoholic who abused the family and then give you a chance later in the campaign to confront him? Is it going to learn that a goblin poked out your eyeball and then give you a chance for revenge?

What do you imagine you're going to be able to answer that will somehow enter the game in a meaningful way?

At most, you'll be able to say that you had ties with thieves and then later some thieves will acknowledge your thief tag. And that only works if those thieves are already in the game.

In other words, it's not going to craft a unique story based on a few questions.

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It's better than nothing, it provides at least some leverage compared to origin characters


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Originally Posted by JandK
Curiously, to anyone who likes the idea of a questionnaire for custom characters at creation... what do you imagine that you will get out of it?
I generally believe it is important to allow players to express themselves in game - choices player makes may or may not have an impact, but not knowing that the choice still can be narratively important.

As far as “questionnaires” go, and pretty great example is Tyranny - it’s opening “choose your own adventure” introduces player to the setting, allows to define the character a little bit as set his or her relations with in game factions and sets the world state. I that game the opening “conquest” is a rather important part of the game, so it’s not something I expect to be easily imitated.

A more humble, but still effective bit is PoE opening, where in a conversation with an NPC temporary companion we can express (or not) our character reasons for coming to Dyrwood, with multiple options per background. Most of them don’t have reactivity attached to them, but some of them do! But I think the main advantage, is giving players opportunity to express their characters.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
There is only one way in my opinion in CRPG to allow players play *their* character ... and that are dialogue choices ... and that should be Larian focus right now, bcs as they are now, they are incredibly limiting. :-/
I will agree with you here.

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Originally Posted by mercurial_ann
It is very in the spirit of dnd, because when you play tabletop, your character backstory is very important, because it basically motivates you to become an adventurer. And a good DM will find a way to connect global plot with your backstory

The kiddies want to play pre-written soap opera anime plots. Few players have actually played D&D, but most of them have ideological expectations about narrative content. Larian is in full fan-service mode for what are essentially teen girls. Custom characters will get a couple of race/class triggers, but nothing else. Most of Larian's resources go into creating the cringey young adult content for this game.

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Thanks for the mention MrFuji ^.^

To those interested, here was the throw-together of the concept (Written with pseudo-Larian style and dialogues ^.^):


((The screen is black))

Narrator: The stinging fades, and the memory of it passes swiftly from your mind. You feel disoriented; your senses are dull and you can't tell where you are.

Voice: “You are home; you are safe. You grew up here. Look around you; tell me what you see.”

1) Just a single, isolated homestead, in the middle of nowhere... but it was home.
2) This is the little village where I was born...
3) This is the city I grew up in...
4) This is my island; the roll of waves is home for me.
5) The mountains where I trained... the order.
6) We moved around a lot, but wherever it went, the caravan was home for me, really...
7) [Githyanki] My creche, where I first drew the blood of my clutch mates to survive...

((Player picks 4. The screen fades in to a nondescript island setting, with white sand beaches, a small township and the dazzling blue of the sea of swords. The scene shows people moving about the little township, while the character stands on the beach, looking out to sea. The details are indistinct at this stage.))

Narrator: As your vision clears, you realise where you are.

Voice: “Yes, home. You're safe here; you can relax. Remember what it was like, growing up?”

1) Heh... I was always a bit of a trouble-maker. If there was mischief, I was probably at the centre of it.
2) I liked to keep to myself, and enjoy the quiet moments. People said I was always daydreaming.
3) I always like to try to help out where I could, even when I was little.
4) I had so many friends!
5) I was such a terrible flirt, even back then. It got me into trouble sometimes.
6) I remember the grazes and the bruises. I was always scrapping, or picking fights.
7) [Githyanki] T'ch, relaxing was for the feeble. I learned to praise Valkith, follow orders, and slit the throat of any who got in my way. I made my first kill when I was a yearling. I remember it. Vividly.

((Player picks 1. The people in the scene grow more defined. The player is then free to walk around and talk to people. The other NPCs greet the character by name, and respond to them in styles based on the previous answer, but generally all friendly and positive – treating the PC as though they are still a youth. The PC is able to engage in a few various conversations that let them respond in a small handful of ways that help define their character a little more; the game can remember these - these do not create restrictions, but rather can open up extra options later on.

-Movement tutorials, social interaction tutorials, skill check tutorials and inventory management tutorials are presented here (the exact skills presented might be from a pool of a few options based on the PC's answers – if they are a daydreamer who goes exploring, they might make athletics and perception checks, for example, but all choices will cover stealth, slight of hand and persuasion in some form, at minimum), while the player explores the town and is guided to talk to a few specific npcs. After this is done, a new NPC runs up to the player, indistinct; game movement slows before they approach the PC.))

Voice: “There was someone very important to you there, wasn't there? Tell me about them...”

1) My sister was always looking out for me...
2) My brother and I were always close...
3) My best friend
4) There was this one girl...
5) There was this one boy...
6) I don't really really think of anyone from back then any more.
7) [Githyanki] My Kith'rak trained me hard. I tried to kill them and assume their position many times. At each failure, they taught me to try harder.

((Player picks 1, and the game fades into the character creator to let them design the figure, who then comes into clarity when they confirm it and finishes running up to them. The figure's dialogue is a culmination of several of the options picked so far, as well as providing a (possibly fictional – this is a tadpole dream, after all) vector away from 'safety' and to Baldur's gate, or to a location within it if the character is a Baldurian))

“[PlayerName], There you are! I swear, Targon is going to give you a hiding if he finds out it was you who let his chickens out and spooked them.” She sighs. “Or, I guess, if he can prove it, since he thinks it was you already. It was you, wasn't it? You're... Oh, never mind, come on, there's no time! The ship to Baldur's Gate is leaving in ten minutes, and if we don't go now... you're not going to make me wait another three months to go birthday shopping, are you? Come on!”

((As the player follows after the figure, the dream begins to break apart; storms and violent weather set in and aspects begin to tear and shatter. Glimpses of Nautiloid themed matter begin to glimpse through, and as the dream loses cohesion, we crash out into what is now the current intro. It could give the subtle, hinted at impression that if this process had completed smoothly, we might have eventually woken up in BG with no real knowledge of our infection, possibly, if that is indeed the case.))


This was just a quick rough up of the concept - the idea is that these details would draw from a restricted set of possibilities that are meant to represent "As close as the tadpole can do in a short amount of time", so it's in-universe going to be not quite right, to cover the game's inability to perfectly map things for every individual player, but it still lets them define some things about their character that can potentially come up later. It also lets the game potentially set up some specific character protagonist hooks.

For those who don't want to define their characters even this far, there might be options to not answer, or non-committal answers that leave the space grey and undefined even up to the point where the dream fails - but this would likely just mean that the game cannot set up any hooks or elements that tie your character to the world, since you didn't give it anything. The core idea is that in universe this is the tadpole trying to create a convincing narrative to cover over your infestation, while out of universe the mechanical structure is both a tutorial for the player, but also a chance for the game to learn about the sort of character you're playing.

Last edited by Niara; 24/06/22 08:31 AM.
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Originally Posted by mercurial_ann
Yes, I understand that it is impossible to make such vast changes if it wasn't planned
But then again, origin characters just win, theres no reason to play custom, if you compare them

Not really... as non english native speaker there will be the time after I surely will stop playing with origin chars. If i am tired of reading and dice rolling dialogues I will ignore and skip them as far as possible and only go through the most necessary dialogues mainly go for having fun in fight encounters. In BG 1 + 2 there are also a lot of people who only play the full game with a single, often self-created, multi-class character... I don't know if that will be possible in BG 3. But I only mention it as a few reasons to play custom chars for sure.


Originally Posted by sublimeclown
I've suggested this before but I would love something similar to Guild Wars 2 where you answer a couple questions about your character at the beginning and that determines some personal quests you have to go on. Even if it were something as simple as "What is your goal in life?" and you could choose treasure, fame, power, helping people, etc. and that would give you a personal mission that unfolds during the game. But agreed, unless they've already planned on implementing that, it's probably a long shot at this point.

+1


Originally Posted by Niara
Thanks for the mention MyFuji ^.^

To those interested, here was the throw-together of the concept (Written with pseudo-Larian style and dialogues ^.^):


((The screen is black))

Narrator: The stinging fades, and the memory of it passes swiftly from your mind. You feel disoriented; your senses are dull and you can't tell where you are.

Voice: “You are home; you are safe. You grew up here. Look around you; tell me what you see.”

1) Just a single, isolated homestead, in the middle of nowhere... but it was home.
2) This is the little village where I was born...
3) This is the city I grew up in...
4) This is my island; the roll of waves is home for me.
5) The mountains where I trained... the order.
6) We moved around a lot, but wherever it went, the caravan was home for me, really...
7) [Githyanki] My creche, where I first drew the blood of my clutch mates to survive...

((Player picks 4. The screen fades in to a nondescript island setting, with white sand beaches, a small township and the dazzling blue of the sea of swords. The scene shows people moving about the little township, while the character stands on the beach, looking out to sea. The details are indistinct at this stage.))

Narrator: As your vision clears, you realise where you are.

Voice: “Yes, home. You're safe here; you can relax. Remember what it was like, growing up?”

1) Heh... I was always a bit of a trouble-maker. If there was mischief, I was probably at the centre of it.
2) I liked to keep to myself, and enjoy the quiet moments. People said I was always daydreaming.
3) I always like to try to help out where I could, even when I was little.
4) I had so many friends!
5) I was such a terrible flirt, even back then. It got me into trouble sometimes.
6) I remember the grazes and the bruises. I was always scrapping, or picking fights.
7) [Githyanki] T'ch, relaxing was for the feeble. I learned to praise Valkith, follow orders, and slit the throat of any who got in my way. I made my first kill when I was a yearling. I remember it. Vividly.

((Player picks 1. The people in the scene grow more defined. The player is then free to walk around and talk to people. The other NPCs greet the character by name, and respond to them in styles based on the previous answer, but generally all friendly and positive – treating the PC as though they are still a youth. The PC is able to engage in a few various conversations that let them respond in a small handful of ways that help define their character a little more; the game can remember these - these do not create restrictions, but rather can open up extra options later on.

-Movement tutorials, social interaction tutorials, skill check tutorials and inventory management tutorials are presented here (the exact skills presented might be from a pool of a few options based on the PC's answers – if they are a daydreamer who goes exploring, they might make athletics and perception checks, for example, but all choices will cover stealth, slight of hand and persuasion in some form, at minimum), while the player explores the town and is guided to talk to a few specific npcs. After this is done, a new NPC runs up to the player, indistinct; game movement slows before they approach the PC.))

Voice: “There was someone very important to you there, wasn't there? Tell me about them...”

1) My sister was always looking out for me...
2) My brother and I were always close...
3) My best friend
4) There was this one girl...
5) There was this one boy...
6) I don't really really think of anyone from back then any more.
7) [Githyanki] My Kith'rak trained me hard. I tried to kill them and assume their position many times. At each failure, they taught me to try harder.

((Player picks 1, and the game fades into the character creator to let them design the figure, who then comes into clarity when they confirm it and finishes running up to them. The figure's dialogue is a culmination of several of the options picked so far, as well as providing a (possibly fictional – this is a tadpole dream, after all) vector away from 'safety' and to Baldur's gate, or to a location within it if the character is a Baldurian))

“[PlayerName], There you are! I swear, Targon is going to give you a hiding if he finds out it was you who let his chickens out and spooked them.” She sighs. “Or, I guess, if he can prove it, since he thinks it was you already. It was you, wasn't it? You're... Oh, never mind, come on, there's no time! The ship to Baldur's Gate is leaving in ten minutes, and if we don't go now... you're not going to make me wait another three months to go birthday shopping, are you? Come on!”

((As the player follows after the figure, the dream begins to break apart; storms and violent weather set in and aspects begin to tear and shatter. Glimpses of Nautiloid themed matter begin to glimpse through, and as the dream loses cohesion, we crash out into what is now the current intro. It could give the subtle, hinted at impression that if this process had completed smoothly, we might have eventually woken up in BG with no real knowledge of our infection, possibly, if that is indeed the case.))


This was just a quick rough up of the concept - the idea is that these details would draw from a restricted set of possibilities that are meant to represent "As close as the tadpole can do in a short amount of time", so it's in-universe going to be not quite right, to cover the game's inability to perfectly map things for every individual player, but it still lets them define some things about their character that can potentially come up later. It also lets the game potentially set up some specific character protagonist hooks.

For those who don't want to define their characters even this far, there might be options to not answer, or non-committal answers that leave the space grey and undefined even up to the point where the dream fails - but this would likely just mean that the game cannot set up any hooks or elements that tie your character to the world, since you didn't give it anything. The core idea is that in universe this is the tadpole trying to create a convincing narrative to cover over your infestation, while out of universe the mechanical structure is both a tutorial for the player, but also a chance for the game to learn about the sort of character you're playing.


+1 I remember a conversation with Wyll where he asked me (rogue class) at some point whether I was trained by Shadow Thieves or Fire Knives... There is also background potential in this and I would love to be a Shadow Thief with my main char during the game.

Last edited by Lotus Noctus; 24/06/22 07:06 AM.
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I think another option to consider would be stronghold level quests from Baldur's Gate 2 that mostly tie to custom's class and background, except maybe these can tie into each arc so that they could compare to how grand the origin system is

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Originally Posted by Niara
Thanks for the mention MrFuji ^.^

To those interested, here was the throw-together of the concept (Written with pseudo-Larian style and dialogues ^.^):


((The screen is black))

Narrator: The stinging fades, and the memory of it passes swiftly from your mind. You feel disoriented; your senses are dull and you can't tell where you are.

Voice: “You are home; you are safe. You grew up here. Look around you; tell me what you see.”

1) Just a single, isolated homestead, in the middle of nowhere... but it was home.
2) This is the little village where I was born...
3) This is the city I grew up in...
4) This is my island; the roll of waves is home for me.
5) The mountains where I trained... the order.
6) We moved around a lot, but wherever it went, the caravan was home for me, really...
7) [Githyanki] My creche, where I first drew the blood of my clutch mates to survive...

((Player picks 4. The screen fades in to a nondescript island setting, with white sand beaches, a small township and the dazzling blue of the sea of swords. The scene shows people moving about the little township, while the character stands on the beach, looking out to sea. The details are indistinct at this stage.))

Narrator: As your vision clears, you realise where you are.

Voice: “Yes, home. You're safe here; you can relax. Remember what it was like, growing up?”

1) Heh... I was always a bit of a trouble-maker. If there was mischief, I was probably at the centre of it.
2) I liked to keep to myself, and enjoy the quiet moments. People said I was always daydreaming.
3) I always like to try to help out where I could, even when I was little.
4) I had so many friends!
5) I was such a terrible flirt, even back then. It got me into trouble sometimes.
6) I remember the grazes and the bruises. I was always scrapping, or picking fights.
7) [Githyanki] T'ch, relaxing was for the feeble. I learned to praise Valkith, follow orders, and slit the throat of any who got in my way. I made my first kill when I was a yearling. I remember it. Vividly.

((Player picks 1. The people in the scene grow more defined. The player is then free to walk around and talk to people. The other NPCs greet the character by name, and respond to them in styles based on the previous answer, but generally all friendly and positive – treating the PC as though they are still a youth. The PC is able to engage in a few various conversations that let them respond in a small handful of ways that help define their character a little more; the game can remember these - these do not create restrictions, but rather can open up extra options later on.

-Movement tutorials, social interaction tutorials, skill check tutorials and inventory management tutorials are presented here (the exact skills presented might be from a pool of a few options based on the PC's answers – if they are a daydreamer who goes exploring, they might make athletics and perception checks, for example, but all choices will cover stealth, slight of hand and persuasion in some form, at minimum), while the player explores the town and is guided to talk to a few specific npcs. After this is done, a new NPC runs up to the player, indistinct; game movement slows before they approach the PC.))

Voice: “There was someone very important to you there, wasn't there? Tell me about them...”

1) My sister was always looking out for me...
2) My brother and I were always close...
3) My best friend
4) There was this one girl...
5) There was this one boy...
6) I don't really really think of anyone from back then any more.
7) [Githyanki] My Kith'rak trained me hard. I tried to kill them and assume their position many times. At each failure, they taught me to try harder.

((Player picks 1, and the game fades into the character creator to let them design the figure, who then comes into clarity when they confirm it and finishes running up to them. The figure's dialogue is a culmination of several of the options picked so far, as well as providing a (possibly fictional – this is a tadpole dream, after all) vector away from 'safety' and to Baldur's gate, or to a location within it if the character is a Baldurian))

“[PlayerName], There you are! I swear, Targon is going to give you a hiding if he finds out it was you who let his chickens out and spooked them.” She sighs. “Or, I guess, if he can prove it, since he thinks it was you already. It was you, wasn't it? You're... Oh, never mind, come on, there's no time! The ship to Baldur's Gate is leaving in ten minutes, and if we don't go now... you're not going to make me wait another three months to go birthday shopping, are you? Come on!”

((As the player follows after the figure, the dream begins to break apart; storms and violent weather set in and aspects begin to tear and shatter. Glimpses of Nautiloid themed matter begin to glimpse through, and as the dream loses cohesion, we crash out into what is now the current intro. It could give the subtle, hinted at impression that if this process had completed smoothly, we might have eventually woken up in BG with no real knowledge of our infection, possibly, if that is indeed the case.))


This was just a quick rough up of the concept - the idea is that these details would draw from a restricted set of possibilities that are meant to represent "As close as the tadpole can do in a short amount of time", so it's in-universe going to be not quite right, to cover the game's inability to perfectly map things for every individual player, but it still lets them define some things about their character that can potentially come up later. It also lets the game potentially set up some specific character protagonist hooks.

For those who don't want to define their characters even this far, there might be options to not answer, or non-committal answers that leave the space grey and undefined even up to the point where the dream fails - but this would likely just mean that the game cannot set up any hooks or elements that tie your character to the world, since you didn't give it anything. The core idea is that in universe this is the tadpole trying to create a convincing narrative to cover over your infestation, while out of universe the mechanical structure is both a tutorial for the player, but also a chance for the game to learn about the sort of character you're playing.
That's awesome! Tnank you
I hope Larian will do something like that


add hexblade warlock, pls
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