Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

I can't wait to play WOTR. I've been enjoying Kingmaker a lot now that I put it on Normal mode. Sure. There are things I don't like as much - like webs and other area effects literally remaining after a battle is over until their time is up, even if it's for 10 minutes or something... Guess I'll go get something to snack on while I wait.

But for the most part, it's a blast. I'd LOVE it if BG3 took some tips and tricks from them; maybe a blend of Solastra, Pathfinder and BG3 as it is current. Take all the good from the other two games and ditch the stupid stuff.

For example, I like that Pathfinder has time. However, they take it to the other extreme from BG3. BG3 has a burning building still burning for days upon days. Pathfinder makes you sit and wait for the spell effects to end in realtime. I'd like a blend of these two. We don't need a full blown realtime clock in BG3, but some better concept of time would be greatly appreciated and way more immersive - LIKE A DAY/NIGHT CYCLE. Larian! Please! Give us a button to transition from day to night and night to day instead of forcing Drow to travel in broad daylight.

WotR does give spellcasters a "dispel" ability that they can use to dispel effects that they cast. This is useful in cases where you put a web spell across a hallway that you now would like to walk through. They may have also added it to Kingmaker (not sure). Regardless, its not particularly obvious that you can do this, so you may need to investigate.

Also relevant, WotR allows spellcasters to learn to cast "selective" spells, which only affect enemies. Selective grease is a standard approach to just about all encounters in act 2.

Not even close. Enigma is much worse.
Find me a worse dungeon in games.

The worst part of that city for me was all the stupid moving buildings making it a pain to get anywhere. Otherwise I enjoyed it, probably because I played Demon path and there was a lot to do there that progressed my character. The most tedious part of the game for me was building the Crusade armies and then having to rebuild them because the queen was an idiot.

I honestly feel Enigma is fine - the worse dungeon is the encounter in the Fallout reference, that forces you to play in turn-based mode, since that breaks the rules of the game on a whim. It's backer content, which sort of explains it, but the other backup content is better.

Anyway, Enigma isn't everyone's kind of dungeon - 100% agree, but it is a completely optional end-game dungeon. You don't need to do it, and I would not be surprised of most players playing without a walkthrough even find all 4 masks to access it. But then? The puzzles are hard, but logical (and definitely better than the 5 domino puzzles), and the end encounter is good as well. It's best to regard it as optional challenging content (I know I don't do it on every playthrough, and definitely didn't do it on my first one) similar to the Dave's Challenges in the Goldbox games.

I have some sympathy for people finding Chapter IV annoying due to the navigation and it is also hard on the frame rates - knowing how to get access to all the teleport locations and getting them early helps a lot, but admittedly that is not something that helps you on a first playthrough. For me that was compensated about the plot finally picking up - it's sort of where you get the feeling that it is really possible to 'solve' the world-wound problem.

I honestly found chapter IV really cool. I loved the way you suddenly had to shift gears into quests focused on attaining social standing and building reputation. It really made me feel like Iwas playing a tabletop game with how much things felt like they had changed.

See, I *adore* the Pillars of Eternity games. Absolutely love them with all my heart. But...


... ... Agree to disagree. *squeel* I am *still* salty about a long list of things concerning the ending of PoE2. q _ q


Regarding WotR (and KM, for that matter) - I get why it is not everyone's cup of tea. Truly! The games are very long - to a point where it grows tedious for most players - and it makes the replay value lower for more "casual" players as just two playthroughs will be an extreme time-commitment. At the same time, WotR has so many choices that matters which makes increases the replay value - but it is simply too much for most people. Myself included - I played through both WotR and KM *once*. I have so many great ideas I wanna try, but there is *no way in the nine hells* that I go through all that time again just to experience the differences.

And the thing is, there are so many "chores" to do - the crusader thing (which granted has an auto-solution) and insanely huge maps with sometimes ridiculously difficult encounters that needs to be cleared. ... And let's not even get into the walking simulation. X]

If you are a heavy roleplayer, you still need to put up with massive amounts of combat and the time between dialogues can be nothing short of tedious. I poked my companions regularly during the story - but usually they had like one new conversation piece per act... Which was really dull and saddening, because I do like Owlcat's writing.

Honestly! If one would combine the best aspects from DoS, PoE, DA and Owlcat's Pathfinder - we'd have an absolutely *amazing* game at hand! All three games have things they do very, very, very well - but all three also have shortcomings that greatly affect their quality. For now, I am just happy to see the CRPG genre getting back in the market. c: Hopefully we'll get many amazing, fresh titles in the future!

I am fine with the time commitment - with PoE1 I immediately jumped back in for a solo Trial of Iron run after 104 hours of my "canonical" playthrough, same with PoE2. It just shows that one team knows how to pace a large, open-ended RPG, and another doesn't. Owlcat's main problem is that they pick too big a scope for how messy their games end up being on release and afterwards. Sure, there are plentiful choices and consequences - but for every well-implemeted choice there's a plotline or a character that just gets outright forgotten, or dumped, or is forced on you regardless of your desire to have them around (Tristian...). They create a massive framework but when it comes to smaller details, you find out that they don't really work together particularly well.

Well... agree to disagree. To each their own, but to me the obviously originally Russian (sentence structure, punctuation, emphases) long and unformatted sheets of text that they try to mash into a single dialogue line / paragraph, which get especially awkward when you hear voice actors trying to go through the whole thing in one take (often screwing up pronounciaions and delivery, which isn't really entirely their fault) aren't really the finest example of writing. You can adapt/translate something with far more finesse. As for companions, their arcs feel really forced and artificial. Can't really refer to WotR here, but in Kingmaker Valerie's questline (for example) left me more confused than anything about what the point it wanted to carry across was supposed to be. I also didn't like how rigidly scripted they were, with me having Kanerah/Kalikke die on me because my LG paladin didn't want to do anything with their devil sire.

Larian are to be commended here with how untethered the plotlines seem to be in BG3, inheriting that from D:OS2. You can easily skip, miss, avoid, or kill things - but the plot, apart from a few exceptions, finds a way to move on, like how you can
I am really looking forward to seeing what the player can get away with in BG3. Like, what if you don't interact with the druids or goblins at all, or slaughter everyone rather than side with them? It's the emergent plot and situations that Larian have been prioritizing in their games since D:OS2 (and even D:OS1, to a degree), and it certainly resonates with what I wanna see in RPGs, rather than them re-iterating on what already worked well 20+ years ago. If I want to play an old CRPG with old-timey gameplay and design, I'd take the original BG games or NWN over the Pathfinder stuff on any day.

+1

Oh - perhaps it is because English is not my native language - or perhaps it is because I am not familiar with the Russian language - but I never noticed the ... Flaws, that you mentioned, in the structure of the text/speech in neither KM or WotR.

I very much get what you're saying when it comes to the companion arcs. There were few companions whose story arc I enjoyed in KM... In fact, I'd even say I'd consider most of the (at least among the good alignments) companions rather... Boring. Tristian was sweet as sugar, which was adorable, but I can totally see why a lot of people would find his persona annoying or even unbearable. Also, speaking of companions, I thought it was a really weird turn for Owlcat to make both of the romancable female companions (Valerie and Octavia) so extremely similar. I mean, I got really tired of listening to Valeria very early on, and hearing Octavia's "I think I broke a nail!" every time she failed at disarming a trap had me looking like "-_-" irl. X]

Imo, they did a *much* better job with companions in WotR. Then again, most of Owlcat's better companions are the evil alignment ones. Their good alignment ones are usually rather uninspired, but their evil alignment ones usually have much more depth to their personality.

That said, I am a fan of Larian's writing too, in many cases! While the main plot of DoS2 wasn't really that compelling for me (chasing godly powers and all - but hey, it is in the title!), I really liked a lot of things about the general writing. I really like each of the companions and I absolutely adore the quirky narrator of DoS2. c: And of course, I adore Obsidian Games' writing as well! Or well, at least PoE(1) - it is my favorite game of all time in everything from main story to companions to music. c: Absolutely adored everything about it! The sequel was... Not a bad game per se, but there is definitely a long list of things that I did not enjoy as much (*especially the ending*). I did write down my thoughts about it in my open letter to Larian that is linked on my signature so I am not going to go into too much detail again.

i love KM and wrath alot and i think i even love the pathfinder lores. the deities, iomedae and sarenrae. i never notice any flaw in their writing or story arcs. i love most of the characters too. when i first played KingMaker i was truly shocked as i find myself thinking to myself... this seems like a true successor to baldur's gate.

after spending much time the only flaw i could see with pathfinder KM or wrath is probably their game engine. i believe they could do so much more with a better game engine. i kind of love solasta now maybe especially due to the the grid based. i have so much fun with solasta. close to 250 hours now. for a tactical game im in favor of grid based at the moment.

I have the take similar to the one I have on BG1-BG2 with the PoE games, probably because they both pay homages to the respective part of the series they are obviously inspired by. The first one is a little rough around the edges, doesn't have as much companion interaction and scale, but has its own charm and in my opinion better writing (although writing-wise BG2 is a step up from BG1) - it's fine to hate on Durance, but that doesn't make him a badly written character. He's an awful, disgusting character who is very well-written, and is worth keeping around in spite of his personality. The main plot flows a lot better too, and the expansions are great. It's not as well thought-through, but an awesome experience at least subjectively.

While PoE2 is massive, and the faction questlines and all the wiggle room you get within them, combined with the free-roam exploration and the atmosphere, plus the character-building opportunities it provides, all make for a stronger experience from a pure gameplay (with a few of the Magran's Fires turned on) and role-playing perspective, but the writing is... not necessarily worse, but is certainly different. Modernized, I guess is the word. It's still not Bioware's cotton-candy fantasy that they turned Dragon Age into, and I really liked the historical inspirations for the factions and their individual aesthetics (as I've said, I am a sucker for the late-/post-Renaissance thematics, and Obsidian did manage to create a believable fantasy setting where firearms and advanced technology exist logically and make sense rather than are a random quirky addition), but you definitely feel that it's far less gritty and a lot more sanitized, and the real-world parallels do get out of hand sometimes with how blatant they are, while in PoE1 they were a lot less apparent (like with how it was pretty obvious that Aedyr is a stand-in for the British Empire albeit with a more Mediterranean flavour, and the Dyrwood/Glanfathan conflict is at least somewhat inspired by the colonist/Native American tensions, and the Vailians are clearly Italian from the commerce-driven era, although with more colonial ambitions, and Great Vailia and Old Vailia would probably then be allusions to the Roman and the Byzantine empires, respectively).

As for the companions, I am really sad that Ydwyn didn't get properly developed because they didn't make it to the stretch goal. I had to headcanon my scholarly Watcher and her having nerdy banter over khapa tea... ahem. The rest are... fine? The old ones are still themselves, and I liked Maia the most out of the new ones, she's controversial and related to Kana, who was my favourite in the first game. Xoti and Tekehu do sometimes seem like they're just there as romance options, and Serafen just doesn't have much more to him than a vulgar furry shortstack swashbuckler. It does feel like the first game's crew had more going on with them despite having fewer interactions with the Watcher and during quests. The DLCs are a treat, though (yes, even the arena one). They aren't the first game's two expansions, but each offers a very cool, new setting and taps into the Eora lore from a new perspective - hence me being really excited for what they're gonna do with Avowed. Hopefully it doesn't become even modern-er with its writing, the setting deserves better.

That was more than enough of an off-topic tangent, methinks. Suffice to say that I do agree with one of the earlier posts that Owlcat writes evil/neutral companions much better, with some expections (Jaethal is kinda dull in Kingmaker, although Harrim is really entertaining, while Tristian the Choir Boy was mostly kept around by me, as a player, because having no cleric is downright masochistic). An interesting parallel with Bioware, where 1's evil party members were mostly absurdly theatrical villains, and 2, while much better in that regard (Viconia, a better characterized Edwin), still had more going on with the good-aligned part of the team (Keldorn, Aerie, Jaheira, Mazzy). Somewhat sad how many of them got retconned and butchered in the new lore books, although I doubt many BG fans consider them and the old novels canon.

Harrim has become pretty amazing the more I analyze him. He comes off as a doomer at the surface level, but make him your religious advisor and you can tell that he either doesn't fully believe in it (which is something his personal quest touches upon) and/or he's very pragmatic about having things remain relatively okay with the time everyone has until the inevitable end of the world. He surprisingly advocates for religious freedom, will suggest enacting decrees that help people from a pragmatic standpoint, and is probably the most sane advisor you can have in Kingmaker.

Indeed. And he is also a surprisingly useful, versatile companion in your party (if you are careful in how you spec and equip him).

Him not having enough charisma to get Selective Channel as a feat is kind of a big headscratcher as to what whoever assigned his ability scores was thinking. He does make for a good frontliner though, unlike Tristian, giving whom his supposedly deity-assigned scimitar is probably the worst way to equip him (he has 9 Strength, if I am not mistaken?), and he can't wear armor or dip into one monk level to at least have naked AC on account of his alignment. He would pretty much just spam channeling/heal/mass heal depending on the situation in my case, and plink away with a crossbow.

I'm not super far yet in WotR, but I'm loving it. I must say. I love creating characters using Custom photos I pull from the internet.

I started with an aasimar paladin of Iomadae, not even realizing how well that would fit into the story right from the start. I went in knowing nothing but it's about demons invading. The only drawback with this character build is that my favorite NPC so far is Seelah, and she's pretty much the same.

My second was a Dragon blooded (Black) half-elf sorceress. Gonna make her a Dragon Disciple. Can't wait to have her turn into a dragon later.

My third was an elf druid with a velociraptor. That's when I realized animal companions were done differently - I can name it, give it items, level it up myself... Yeah. Now THAT is fun. WotR has done animal companions right.

My fourth is a white kitsune rogue dagger wielder. She's the only one I based on a WotR portrait, but she kicks serious butt with daggers and is a far better build than Camellia. I don't really care for Miss "Today you are my sacrifice," or whatever she says.

My fifth is my latest, but she's quickly becoming my favorite. A halfling cleric who is almost like a ranger but she's full-on cleric. Background hunter and cleric of nature, she wields a longbow and has a wolf animal companion that she can mount. Reminds me of the old Elfquest game/light novels. She's an awesome healer AND the best archer in the party - better than Lann.

And I love that when I equip things, they show on my characters. And I love that I can spin the camera. I mean. There's just so much I like about this game so far. I gotta say, it's really, REALLY drawing me in.

BG3 could REALLY gain a lot if they took some tips from it.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game so much! I've put over 560 hours into the game and I still love it so much. Combat can get to be a slog sometimes, but overall it's so great. I think you're gonna really like it.

I do. And I must say, the resting mechanics, the setting... I rested at one point because I felt I really needed to. And do you know what? Things happened. Imagine that. A city besieged by demons, and if I rest, things are happening in the world.

I mean, it wasn't severe or anything, but stuff happened. Crazy.

Exactly. That's what I do with him too. With good equipment you can make him a decent secondary tank while still getting pretty good healing and buffing support from him. I love that versatility, which you cannot get from Tristian, who therefore gets to stay home.

@GM4Him, so glad to hear you're enjoying WotR. Both Km and WotR sure have their problems and quirks, but all in all they're fantastic games into which you can easily put hundreds of hours.

Depends on the level of difficulty. At higher levels, the balance is so strange that if an enemy hits you, it will be 90% one shot. It is irritating especially since most of the companions in this game have a tragic stat distribution (it doesn't help that most of them only have 20 points).
Valerie is probably the worst (Harrim is second).
Honestly, I don't see a chance to finish the game on higher difficulty levels using default stats on companions without throwing the computer out of a window at the same time.
Most of them won't be able to hit anything for most of Acts 1 and 2.
In the case of WotR, I was able to play Unfair with default companions without multiclassing (this was probably the only time I got to act 6).