Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Solution to cover a theme park map

We discussed here already that for some amount of players bg3 act 1 map looks like a theme park map - distances are so little, that it's surprising, how goblins never found the grove. I tend to agree on that.

So, i have a suggestion, but for it to work, thay must add D/N cycle, it's vital

My suggestion is to add post effects and dynamic fog/absense of fog for every time period of the day. Let me explain. Imagine you have just LRed, you move out at dawn, and there is, for example, a fog, it covers a little bit your lack of distance and doesn't break immersion - it is dawn after all. Then when it's afternoon, the fog is gone and you can see the map clearly - but the feeling of theme park doesn't appear, because you experience dynamic change in visuals. The same for evenings, when it starts to get darker, the fog reappears

A little silly example with fog, I know, it can be done with a bunch of other post FX. My point is to hide themed park map like Rockstar did with GTA SA - you never knew the map is so little until the fog was gone. The same idea can work here

What do you think

A little addition. I can understand why Larian wouldn't want to make D/N cycle. We travel through different locations - Underdark don't even have day and night, If we go in shadowfell i suppose it won't have day and night either. So I understand. I think it depends on what amount of locations can possibly have day and night to benefit from the system

Outside of making the map bigger and touching on the idea of open world (which I am pretty sure Larian does NOT want to do for a CRPG, but is cool in concept), this is a difficult matter. If we are not taking distance literally, then we have to understand what it means to create the ILLUSION OF DISTANCE. Right now, everything is really tightly packed together and "distant" parts of the map are observed as being quite close to wherever you are. One can consider that the experience of distance is largely dependent on how distance relates to time. If it takes a long time to get to a place, that place FEELS far away. If it takes a short time to get to that place, that place FEELS closer. Imagine how much tighter the world feels when you have a car versus on foot.
For example, if you can be in New York and get on a flight to Brussels in 2022, it feels like a day's journey, and the distance feels lesser.
If you are a trader in Egypt in 1600 BC, traveling to Crete from the Nile Delta can feel like a lifetime due to limited boat technology.

In other words, the experience of distance is tied to how much time it seems to take. A day/night cycle that moves faster than normal and indicates your few steps are actually taking several hours expresses the idea that you are actually traveling great distances on foot without having to argue that the distance just appears short. But there are other immersion problems with a d/n cycle, such as preserving a sense of urgency in your tadpole problem when days are passing just by your standing still. I'm not sure timed quests are really a fun mechanic in games these days. We all remember it in old school games, but not really modern ones. Who actually wants to be rushed through a game?

A day/night cycle or an expression of time still doesn't solve the problem of how tight the world feels and how "distant" locations are right next to each other. The upside to this design, and I imagine Larian has this in mind, is that having a tight world allows for a seamless transition from fun experience to fun experience without taking you to an overworld map or making you travel long distances for the sake of long distances (Think that line in the Mass Effect trilogy where the game-seller is talking about how the cool old-school games had you spending real hours to get from place to place, clearly mocking it), or taking you to a loading screen. There are upsides, but the world is just so damn tight that it makes it hard to take characters seriously when they talk about not finding places (Goblins/Minthara and Druid Grove), or how many miles are between your location and Baldur's Gate. Adding more transition areas between locations with minor interactions could be a way to slice it (more and longer roads between areas that are winding and have a single interaction on them, but are mostly designed to give an experience of world-scope and distance). IIRC you couldn't enter every building in Athkatla and some were there to give you the impression of scope. I also think the teleport portals borrowed from DOS2 are a bad way of handling fast travel in this game because: the whole game takes place in midday (except camp), locations are tight together, and you can instantaneously travel across the map. Honestly you could've just had a fast travel mechanic.

The tightness and the size of features around us also give us a bad impression of the scale of the world. Hillsides and ridges are the same size as two or three character models stacked on each other. Everything in the world design tells me, "This world is small, and everything is close together; the people who inhabit this world are just too stupid to figure it out." I'm not fully sure how to solve the theme park problem. I don't think it requires changing the map as a whole, but there certainly needs to be some way of creating the illusion of scope, scale, distance, and time.

Ludonarrative dissonance. It's ludonarrative dissonance. The story tells me one thing, and the gameplay tells me the opposite. (I know it's not EXACTLY ludonarrative dissonance as described here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludonarrative_dissonance but it's something like it).

I don't know. Maybe the fog concept could work, but I'm not sure people would like it because it hides the gorgeous views Larian has created. Plus, it might tax low end computers and thus raise the minimum requirements. But maybe.

I frankly think it's just be better to cut the dang surface map in pieces, creating separate areas. Smaller maps with gates to others would instantly create the impression that PCs traveled for hours between locations. You wouldn't even have to say, "Three hours later." Just the fact that once you leave the beach/nautiloid/crypt map, the game transitions to the grove map would imply the passage of time. Same with going from the grove area to Moonhaven/The Forest. Same with going from there to the Bog.

Yes, it would be considerable rework, but any revamp of the map at this point would be considerable rework.

They probably won't, so we'll probably just have to imagine it in our minds. As you pass into the Forest, close your eyes and imagine you've spent hours getting there. Now open your eyes. Ah. There you go. Area transition.

GM4Him makes a good point in that map reworks are unlikely. Perhaps we should be thinking about smaller tweaks or alterations that could minimize the theme park effect rather than reworking the map? I'm a bit at a loss though, so I'm just proposing an approach.

I think that's the point of the thread. The fog/day/night approach would be a smaller tweak that might help make the map feel bigger.

exactly. Total map rework seems very unlikely. I was counting the other day how many patches we have left before the release, and it seems that patch 8 will be one of the last(in average, interval between patches is 4 months, so before 2023 we'll have patch 8 and patch 9). So it is fairly late to rework it like that

A tongue-in-cheek way to address this would be to put a 1 cm line on the map and label it "1 mile." (intentionally mixing metric and imperial because why not)
Also, I agree that Larian's environments are too beautiful to cover in fog.
If the entire game takes place in midday, what if there was a symbolic way of keeping time? You know how in Minecraft you can make that clock? You can be deep beneath the surface and still it will tell you if it is day or night. Maybe having a more symbolic clock d/n cycle could get us a sense of time without forcing too much rework around the idea of a d/n cycle? And then that combined with symbolic distance on a map could hammer home the idea that the world is much bigger to our characters than it is to us.

IMO they could also simply look where exactly this 'miniature' world (themepark, but also very boardgame) is the most extreme (e.g. grove to goblins) and simply play around with multiplying those distances until it reaches let's 'x' times the distance visible on fully zoomed out. Whatever x they choose i don't care as long as x> than how it is now. Where this creates the issue of having to 'travel' trough tediously long empty stretches of map, they simply add little side quests/npc's that make the world feel alive and of which some incorporate elements of 'random encounters'. To appease the haters of random encounters, you make them skippable for meta-power gamers and speedrunners, but add a nice little flavour extra for those who complete them. Shouldn't be too hard to add stuff like wildlife&ranger kinda quest, b-tier enemies which can lead to a boss fight (enemies can respawn but no extra xp or loot, boss stays dead), add in some d&d class variety in these immersion filler things, and you also found a way to have class specific lore/mechanic introductions. (e.g. ranger could explain melee/ranged, hit% while hunting, even food). Not so sure why they seems so hesitant to upgrade their maps with something resembling a living universe, I think it can be done without interfering with their pre-set, table-top, style. I really don't see why, for instance the horned dude at the grove entrance can not have a relatively simple routine where he walks from gate to the map room...

Well, in last patch Larian started to experiment in Fog of War indoors ...
Take it outdoors sounds like the next logical stepp. O_o

Wouldnt that be enough?

I don't mean it like a system, rather like a visual effect. Fog of war outdoors is strange...i didn't like in wotr, so i wouldn't like it here as well

Morning fog would help, but it would need to be part of a larger bag of tricks to hide the theme park feel of BG3. That feeling comes from more than map density.

Everything on the map looks purpose built for the player’s enjoyment; events feel like they’re waiting for the player to be triggered (fine for an ambush, weird for a fire); NPCs do (almost) nothing without player input.

It gives off the same vibes as those medieval villages where actors show children what life was like back then. The blacksmith gives the same speech 15 times of day, which always starts with “Oh, hi! I didn’t see you there.” Yes you did, you liar. I heard you rehearsing your lines in the latrines.

Edit: I just read The Composer saying suggestions on this forum actually do make their way to Larian. In that spirit, I’d like to suggest slowly shifting shadows and changing light color throughout the day. After all, OP’s idea is premised on a day/night cycle being included, so let’s take every opportunity to make the environment dynamic! It would make BG3 feel more like a real place and less like a beautifully designed theater stage.

Edit 2: I just read The Composer saying the engine can’t handle dynamic lighting… Aside from crushing my dreams, this means tricks like morning fog need to do the heavy lifting for a dynamic environment.

I don't know. I still think the game would actually be much better and run better with smaller maps. Look how fast the load times are in the prologue as compared to the rest of the EA. Smaller overall map. Game loads quicker.

So, Imagine the EA surface map was Beach/Nautiloid/Crypt/Wilderness just outside crypt where you reunite with Lae'zel. That's 1 map with one or two gates that lead to Silvanus Grove. The game would have to load up that first area faster if it was just that significantly smaller area. So, not only should it be faster loading screens but you'd get a transition from that first area to the second, making it clear that time passes between the two.

Area 2 is Silvanus Grove which includes everything from the harpies all the way to where you meet Ed and siblings. Whether you go down to the river and cross by the owlbear cave or you cross the bridge, you transition to the next area. Again, maybe two gates. After all, the game map is actually designed to be only those two ways to get to the next area.

I would think the hardest part would be to develop the landscape beyond the gates so it looks like there's more land there, but you can't actually enter that land. So, from Area 1 to Area 2, they'd have to create sort of a mountainous backdrop that makes it clear you're continuing to make your way through boring, empty mountains to the next location. Then, from Area 2 to 3, you'd need more of a backdrop of mountains and trees. The trees becoming more prevalent as you continue on into the distance because Area 3 is the Forest/Blighted Village/Ruined Temple of Selune. It kinda makes sense to include both the village and the goblin camp in one map because the Temple of Selune was a pivotal structure in 1372 linked directly with the village of Moonhaven. Also, you can stand on the overlook at the back of the windmill and see the temple in the distance. It's very appropriate to have them together.

The backdrop for the south would be that it dips more and more until, in the distance, you see the bog at the foot of the mountainous, forested area. The transition gate to the north could be way before you reach the bridge. Like the bog, you see the bridge in the distance, but the remainder of the ruined town of Moonhaven is more of the backdrop, letting you know that there is more boring, non-important areas of the village besides just the few buildings in the game right now.

Risen Road would be Area 4 and the Bog Area 5. Each area, being cut into smaller chunks, would have to speed up loading times and it would add to the immersion of the game, making players feel more like they are actually journeying through larger, wider spaces, and that places like the Blighted Village aren't just a few small homes and the forest isn't just a few trees clustered together, etc.

Not that they'll likely do this, but I would think that if they did, it would greatly improve a number of things. Like... I wouldn't see Alfira's lyrics floating in the air all the way from the Temple of Selune... lol... as if they can hear her in the Goblin Camp.

I don't think it would solve anything.
You're still gonna have to walk 13 seconds between the grove and the blighted village and 15 more to reach the goblins camp. It's impossible to have visual changes every 30 seconds and if the visual changes is for the next travel, it's just the same feeling than now but at night (which would be better than nothing, obviously. The lack of D/N cycle is a shame in such a game).

This Larian style mapdesign won't ever be coherent. That's why mostly ALL other games (custom maps and mods excluded ofc) have OR open world-like maps OR small areas separated by a worldmap/a loading screen/anything else that makes you feel that you're just "travelling".
BG3 has very small areas pasted together in an "open world style" map which will always be wierd when it comes to time/distance.

The best they could do at this point is probably to rework some part of the plot/the map not to look completely ridiculous. Like really hiding the grove and/or having Minthara saying something like" we have found them, we're gonna attack them, join us" rather than "we cannot find them, tell me where they are so we can attack them". It would't change anything gameplay and immersion-wise but at least they could remove all/most story-wise issues.

Maybe there's a way for the narrative or game design to gloss over the fact that everything's so close together? At the end of the day, the tweaks to this massive design component of the Larian style are going to have to be small, but there are many ways small things can be added to create an illusion of distance/time/scale/scope.

For one, I can say that I don't like that the mini-map/fast travel map is a lot like the map from DOS2. I would prefer a more stylized map rather than a very "literal" map. Go all high fantasy for the fast travel map design, put it on parchment with ink and little scribbles when someone tells us to mark something on our map like Zorru or when we pass a check concerning a location or if a character wants to add commentary... even adding areas to the fast travel map that we can't go to, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons This means that every time we use the map, we are reminded that this world is not a tight, static board, but is a real world that requires a map with some scale, and we are only traveling to the locations relevant to us in a much larger world, like in BG2, or any RPG with an overworld map that separates zones. This would work especially well with the Underdark, where we are walking over land bridges with supposedly dangerous terrain beneath. It would also allow for more lore references on the map. GM4Him brought up slicing up the map... maybe to preserve the seamless transitions of the theme park style, the fast travel map can imply that we exist in a world more like what GM4Him is suggesting. Having said that, GM still makes good points about being able to see certain locations from others in that style of map (Grove and Goblins). Maybe the druids employ some sort of nature magic to cloak the grove in trees and vines and tall grasses? Or the shadow druids have some other kind of illusion magic (I'm not a dnd lore expert).

If the game can't handle dynamic lighting (something I would really like for Baldur's Gate 4 if we get it), maybe give us a clock or sundial we can check by pulling up the map or pulling up something else. It might not even have to be based on real-time, but instead on a combination of short rests, HP, spell slot consumption, combat encounters passed, and major story moments passed. Fog is not a bad idea, but on its own, I don't think it will accomplish much, as Flooter mentions. Flooter further makes a good point that it feels like those medieval villages with rehearsed lines sometimes. Maybe giving more varied lines based on context could help to break that sensation a bit? Looking back at DOS2, you can only hear, "Keeping it together Bree...," so many times while going to the area over and over again before your immersion is broken and you are losing your mind. The NPC chatter has been a meme (and not always in a good way) in the DOS subreddit for quite some time. Just google "dos2 npc meme" and the bulk of the reddit search results are people complaining about npc conversation repetition (Cheese merchant in DOS especially, with all due respect to those who like the Gorgombert).

Maybe characters with low strength, dexterity, or athletics can remark on the amount of traveling being done on foot (Potential for being annoying though).

Also, how big is a Nautilloid? Is there some justification for its size resembling a substantial distance on the map? Is a nautilloid bigger than the crypt, or the grove, or the temple? Is it also big enough to be as big as a substantial chunk of the road to Baldur's Gate?

Should we have a day counter for how many days our journey has taken, based on each long rest? Maybe that would help when a character says that a place is one or two day's journey away. I don't think dnd has names for the days of the week like the Elder Scrolls (Morndas, Turdas, etc.), but that could be a way to make it more immersive.

The camera can also be used to give an impression of distance/scope/scale. In places that are smaller, maybe the camera closes in a bit more to give character focus and a bit of mystery to the area. When we are walking across a giant ridge, maybe the camera can be encouraged to zoom out and to the side to show us how massive the world is compared to our characters? A bit concerned about taking camera control away from the player though.

A little rant about dynamic lighting. What kind of engine is that? Bethesda Creation engine(2002) can handle dynamic lighting and this can't? How? I'm so confused

But fine, if they really can't do it, then bake 4 presets of lighting and change them after every short rest until it's night, then long rest. Making static time will be terrible

I wouldnt mind if important areas like Goblin camp, Druid cove etc would have their own <zones> (hence getting there show a map ala Deadfire to get there takes TIME...alas...we all know what Larian thinks of the concept of time and calendars in RPGs......) and expand wilderness areas. That would solve the problem with minimal problems?

Right now everything feels like a condensed time frozen static board game. Including dialogues.

Tiny problem with the map slicing suggestion is how it might affect multiplayer. Larian will not entertain any suggestion that negatively affects multiplayer, which is a major component of what made DOS, DOS2, and BG3 unique in the CRPG space.

Also, if the engine can't handle dynamic lighting (kinda weird for a 3D cinematic RPG, but maybe there's a way to trick us into thinking the light is changing when it's not), then could it possibly do weather effects? Maybe having different or occasionally different weather after long rests could be good. There is such thing as sunshowers. It would give us more ambient effects and extinguish old fire patches, like at the Nautilloid or Waukeen's Rest after completing the burning inn quest.

Okay. I think concede defeat. Multiplayer does create a problem with the map. I hadn't really considered how with the current design, player one can be in the village while player two can be in the blog. I don't know how the game engine would work if the maps were divided into separate maps.

It is true that multiplayer RPG is what they're known for, so it would kind of shoot them in the foot to divide the map out. At the end of the day, as much as I fought for a map that makes more sense, I can see the method behind the madness I guess. And I can live with the map as is if it means more sales for the game and more fun for the overall fan base.

This should make some happy, clears throat, Ragnarok. You win. I'm done fighting over the map. I'll just let go now and pretend distances are greater than they appear to be. 🤪