Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides BG3 Party Movement Mechanic

It wasn’t clear to me when I wrote it and you had me convinced it was for a moment, but now I’m not so sure.

I’m assuming Larian won’t fundamentally change their control scheme, presumably for controller compatibilty, but are looking to fix individual issues one by one as they come up. They could find an alternative to box selection.

What if right clicking a portrait automatically grouped the character you’re controlling with whoever you clicked on? Then right clicking again could add or remove PCs from the group. That would fill the role just fine for me and still work on console. You’d have to ditch the dropdown menus but I’m fine with that.

I’m still bummed that flight is just long jumping and that ranged attacks sometimes require pixel-point precision to avoid having your PC stand somewhere dumb.

I'm assuming the same thing, but it doesn't mean that's not what they SHOULD do.

And "controller compatibility" is a poor excuse, generally speaking, both because the game currently doesn't even have a working controller interface/scheme (so they could adjust that area at will) and especially since (as already pointed more than once in the past) we have the example of WoTR that uses a classical CRPG control scheme if played with mouse and keyboard and THEN plays pretty much in the same way as DOS 1 and 2 (and so like BG3 most likely will, as well) when using a controller. Which goes to prove the two solutions are in fact NOT mutually exclusive.
In fact, it plays even a bit better, since it allows for formation control, while the Larian solution doesn't.


I don't really care if the character selection per se would be done with click and drag, with portrait selection or with shift+click or whatever else. This is like arguing if corrections should be marked with the blue or the red pen.
The point is that there should be a a character selection at all, which means the system should be adjusted to allow for the selection of MORE THAN ONE unit at any given time. And the player should be able to give group command to multiple selections without relying on a whole bunch of convoluted, custom-made shortcuts that are pretty much just a roundabout way to get the same result with less simplicity and efficiency.

I am as well, but this is not strictly related to the control scheme, as much as Larian's questionable implementation of the "Z axis" in the game.

I thought you were advocating specifically for click and drag as exemplefied by classic RPGs. If you’d settle for any kind of streamlined multiselection, then we agree.

You’ve convinced me that controllers probably aren’t at the core of the design decision behind the movement system. Maybe the engine simply can’t support box selection, being that the standard click and drag behavior is to move objects.

As you said, this is all a roundabout way of asking Larian to implement a sleeker way of precision-moving PCs outside of turn-based mode.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=819187#Post819187
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=818924#Post818924
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=819250#Post819250
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=819210#Post819210
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=819432#Post819432

Now that this patch has botched the chain system even more, it's as good time as any to stress once again how much it sucks.

Agreed. And I'm still unimpressed by how Larian can have reached such an advanced stage in the development of their game, and still not have a decent and working control scheme.

I would have thought the controls could have been sorted fairly early, either on the prototype or one of the very early builds. And I would have thought that, if controls, UI and playability aren't things Larian cares much about, they would have just re-used the standard scheme used pretty much universally. But no. They're now reaching the final lap, and the controls are still not satisfactory.


Quick question : has Group Stealth been improved ? Or it is the case that it simply switches the Stealth state of each companion in the group (those Standing switch to Stealthing and those Stealthing switch to Standing) ?

Depends ...
Now it puts your whole party into sneaking, but when you want to un-sneak them ... you have to do that one-by-one.

Wow, am I understanding that right ? So ... they've improved the feature a bit, while also making it a bit worse ?

Just imagine a brand new text editor software about to hit the market. In the previous iteration, if you selected a bunch of letters and pressed Bold, it would switch the Normal ones to Bold and the Bold ones to Normal, instead of bringing the whole selection to Bold or Normal like any decent text would do. In the new version, you can finally bring a mixed-state selection to Bold, but you have to un-Bold letters one by one.

I'm thoroughly impressed by the skill level Larian is displaying in the UI-and-usability department.

Well, yes ...
But to be completely fair, i can understand someone who dont play this game too strategicaly to see no reason in "group unstealthing" feature ...

I mean when you want all your characters to stealths, its most likely to ambush something, since you rarely can compeltely avoid things ...
(Yes i know you can, but its not too often.)
So basicaly all that person would need is to stealth > position > attack.

Assuming this was the reasoning at Larian's, it would still be misguided and bad design. (I mean, they supposed care about player agency, right ?)

The changes from

• no Group Stealth functionality, to
  
  
• Group Stealth button : switches the Stealth state of all characters in the group (Stand <-> Stealth), to
  
  
• Group Stealth button : switches all Standing characters to Stealth ; no Group Stand functionality, to (hopefully, in a couple of months)
  
  
• Group Stealth button : brings all characters in the group to the same Stealth state (allowing to apply Stealth All and Stand All)

is really not impressive.

Even if the task of implementing Group Stealth was assigned to a developer who didn't want to work on that, they would have been sooner finished by simply doing it right from the start. It's not even as if it requires much thought/design : text editors already do something similar, just copy the way it works and be done with it.


I wonder if it's too generous to say that UI-and-usability feels like the 5th wheel with Larian.

My group "unstealth" works if they are chained.

It really is abysmal but I have no faith they will rework it in any significant way. They seem absolutely wedded to it.

Yeah, the chain system is not getting better - companions are stuck all the time and often follow through fire and other perils. It really is annoying.

i agree it sucks that they keep walking into fire when there is a path that doesn't have to set toes on fire

So, apologies if this has been gone over in this thread... but I wanted to re-discuss the Chain in conjunction with entering combat.

I already loathe that clicking on a portrait summons the other characters to them (if chained), but seperation of characters in order to place them strategically, etc... in shadows for example, seemingly adds the issue of Initiative/Turn Order once you initiate an encounter/combat.

Example:
- I unchain the party and move Astarion & main character stealthfully next to a door (standing either side) I know enemies are about to come through.
- I move the two remaining chained characters into main position and initiate the fight with an attack.

Now in this example, the Turn Order is divied up between the group of enemies and ONLY the 2 chained characters I initiated the combat with. Initiative is rolled and the enemy runs through the door, passed my placed companions and attack my now party of two.

Astarion and may main character are as yet not in the combat and have missed an opportunity to attack first because they haven't rolled for initiative.

Now that I am in Combat, re-chaining the party brings both Astarion and main Character into the fold, but as I have said, I have missed out on the initial attack/Attacks of opportunity etc...

Now I appreciate I might have done something wrong here, but that just screams un-intuitive, or, that in catering for those characters / players (in MP) you want out of combat something is going a little wonky here, because I thought if you were within a given radius, you were automatically dragged into turn based actions (and thus on the initiative tracker).

So either that doesn't work, or it IS working as intended and the by-product of that is unchained party members will always be screwed when you enter combat.

I haven't noticed this as a big problem myself, but that aside, what you're describing is a pathing issue, not a problem with the chain system.


What you've described has nothing to do with whether or not the characters are chained. The issue is that your two characters are in stealth mode. They aren't perceived by the enemies, and they are actively trying to stay hidden, so they aren't in the initiative line up yet.

To get into initiative, they have to be revealed somehow, either by coming out of stealth willingly or being seen by the enemy.

I understand that you want them to take their attack while they are in stealth mode, but I suppose it's hard for the computer to know that. For instance, imagine if your character went into stealth and took an attack of opportunity when you didn't want them to. Suddenly, that would be the complaint because the character would be coming out of stealth prematurely.

Instead, as long as your character stays in hiding, you get to make an attack from hiding and that will bring the character in question into the initiative order.

@Riandor : basically, you are having difficulties performing an ambush. I share your difficulties.

The game does a poor job at managing who gets drawn into combat mode and who doesn't. This has already been reported a while ago, see this old thread/posts for example.


One could argue that if the player left the Opportunity Attack toggle ON in the current system, the played wanted the characters to take an Opportunity Attack at the first opportunity.

And of course, all this wouldn't be a problem in the first place if we had full control over our Reactions ... But that's a different topic.


Coming back to party controls,

Correct, but the two are very linked. The pathing issue only highlights the problems many have with the chain system. And when characters don't walk through fire to get closer to the selected character (as the chain system compels them to, even when the player didn't want the other characters to move), they might walk in line of sight of another enemy and thus get into an unwanted fight.

Also, for context, BG1&2 also had a relatively bad pathing. But I rarely experienced the problems I experience in BG3. In part because the old system allowed for party formations.

That's the point. Follower pathing is inconsistent, but it really is a completely unrelated issue to the party chain. No matter the mental gymnastics, it's worlds apart in terms of systems under the hood. That's not in terms of disagreeing to be clear, I think both the party management and pathing need a bit of love (or a lot, arguably), but it's important to understand those are two different topics and differentiate between them.

The UI is just a visual representation for a player to interact with a system. That has nothing at all, in the slightest bit, to do with pathing. In any slightest minute way. That doesn't mean the party chain is good. It's just not relevant. It's like saying combat feels slow because there are not enough body options in character creation. That seems like a hyperbole, but it truly is that unrelated (purely and solely technically speaking in game code). I don't know how to underline that any clearer😅 Changing the UI wouldn't impact how companions follow one another in the programming in the slightest, nor whether or not Astarion decides to walk through fire because he needs to stick to formation - But a different control scheme can make it easier/faster for the player to stop Astarion before he do. There's the difference and the overlap of systems that I think is the point you're trying to make? Because I think JandK would agree with that as well - Just butting in here because it strikes me as a both parties agree but don't know they do, kinda.

We could go back and forth forever, and still there will be some who don't understand why we don't like the Larian Chain/Group System.

I think it all boils down to control and how user-friendly it is. The chain system takes a good deal of effort to maintain proper control over your companions. It also requires you to stay focused and remember to unchain/chain at the right times. Can you get used to it? Yes... sorta. I mean. I've been playing the game for over 600 hours now and I still sometimes have characters run into poison puddles, or lava, or just plain fire that is burning that they could avoid if they ran two feet to the left, or vine traps, or whatever. It's easy to forget that they aren't smart. They will do things that hurt themselves if you don't carefully make your way through such terrain.

Likewise, I still have issues where companions just stop following me, and I never know it. Interestingly, I just started playing DOS 2, and I find that it happens to me a lot in that game too. I suddenly pause and ask, "Where the flip did Ifan go?"

So, what I mean by "good deal of effort" I mean you have to be constantly watching your companions to make sure they aren't doing something stupid.

Now. Compare that to Pathfinder (either game). There is a button, like BG3, to group all companions together. Click on a portrait, and they are ungrouped. Okay. Super easy. No pull and drag. Want to group a few together? Click on the screan, drag the box until the ones you want are highlighted, and they are now grouped. Super simple. Doesn't take much time. Click on a location. Everyone in the group goes there, avoiding dangerous terrain on the way. They don't get stuck. They don't (usually, and I mean almost never) do stupid things like run into traps or fire, and you can count on them being there together, in a group. It's simple, quick and easy to manage.

There is no grabbing a portrait and dragging it up next to another - UGH, but wait... Lae'zel accidentally connected to Astarion, and I wanted her to connect to my MC - so now I have to pull her portrait really far away to unchain and then try to connect again without connecting the other portraits that are still fairly close together. And OH DANG! I accidentally actually selected her as the character I'm controlling, and as soon as Lae'zel accidentally connected to Astarion, he started running towards her, and now he's triggered enemies between the two. RRRrrrrg! Now combat was triggered before I wanted it to simply because Lae'zel accidentally connected to the wrong person. Stuff like that really sucks.

So, I think when you start to compare the system to other games - Pathfinder, Solasta, etc. - you start to realize just how cumbersome and frustrating the "Toilet Chain" system is. It isn't frustrating all the time, but it CAN be very frustrating when you need it to be not frustrating the most.

Note: When you simply run around with the group all together and you don't separate them or unchain them, the movement mechanics are okay. If they fixed the pathing a little, most of the time the movement mechanics when chained would not be an issue. Especially since they added Group Stealth, it's working fairly well - but again, only when grouped/chained all the time. When you start playing around with grouping people together, that's when it gets frustrating.

You know, I'd rather have something like how some old-school RTWP mass troop games had it (like Battle for Middle Earth). You could set units. Click/drag/highlight or hold Shift and select who you want to be apart of which unit. Then set that unit as Cntl+1 for unit 1 and Cntl+2 for unit 2 (or whatever it was). Something like that would be much easier than the chain system.

And for the love of all that is good and decent, don't make the PCs run towards the selected character when you select them. PLEASE make it so that you have to at least start moving said selected character before the entire group that is selected moves.

It is a related issue though, because the Chain System is based on "follow the leader," while in BG1's marquee select you select all (or a subset) of characters and then click on the positions you want to move them to. If companions in BG3 run through fire because they're trying to "follow the leader" (as opposed to a normal pathing issue where you're controlling them individually, unchained, and they still run through fire), then that's a problem intrinsically tied to BG3's chain system because "follow the leader" is the only way of moving multiple characters at a time.

So we need to separate BG3's pathing issues into: Does this happen when you're controlling an individual character (pathing issue only) or does it happen to followers trying to follow the leader (pathing AND chain issue)?

@The Composer : Yes. Kind of. Mostly but not fully.

The Chain Control Scheme is one issue (a complex one, with multiple parts, pieces and layers). The bad Pathing is, fundamentally, a different issue (a rather simple one to describe and discuss, I feel).

But they not entirely unrelated. And so I think your analogy goes a bit too far, as the two example you take are truly and entirely unrelated.

One of the (several) pieces of the Chain Control Scheme is that, every time a character is selected, all the other characters that are part of the same Group will automatically be ordered to converge to the selected character if they are too far away. Executing this movement "command" naturally calls the Pathing code.

Improving the Pathing code would alleviate some issues. In particular, the case where combat just ended, your Group is scattered, and everyone converges to the last character to act in combat. With an improved Pathing, characters would no longer walk in fire or traps. But they would still be moving without my express order, and they might get in line of sight of other enemies.

Improving the Chain Control Scheme, by no longer requiring all non-selected Group members to constantly check their distance to the selected character and move if they are too far, would completely decouple the two issues.


———

Side note 1 : since the thread has "party movement mechanics" in the name, I feel that both issues are completely on topics, regardless of how they are inter-related.

Side note 2 : yes, reactivity is also an issue. In summary, in BG1&2, Astarion would not randomly walk through fire and traps after a fight because
- a) there was no Chain Control Scheme : after a fight, if my party is scattered and all selected, they won't move until I give a move order.
- b) when I press Pause, the game pauses immediately, allowing me to react if I see that Astarion is about to walk on a trap.

Yes in part. I used that as one example of the issues the Chain system brings with it. I want to maintain "Advantage", so that Astarion can Sneak Attack, but I won't have that if he can't strike from the shadows (or unless I move him behind after an enemy is already engaged in melee combat).

But even more basic than that, if I want an archer at a better vantage point to the rest of my party, I cannot set that up and engage in combat without the same issue of Initiaive tracker missing them off. Again, I was under the impression that everyone at a certain distance was always pulled into TB, but that ddistance seems very small and doesn't do it whilst in stealth full stop as far as I can tell. The quick "fix" is to hit the G key, but frankly, once TB has been engaged, all party members in the same "locale" should be pulled into TB, what they do with their turn (including travelling further away/shop etc...) should be irrelevant.

Forgetting to unchain can also be a death sentence, click on a portrait and send them to a differernt location and watch in horror as the party reforms behind the person you have selected and triggers LOS, Traps, walks into enveironmental hazards... Now Yes, you could say that's user error, but it's non intuitive and too prone to mistakes being made, as such it just isn't player friendly. In short it creates more problems that it in any way appears to solve.

You would be better off having a Toggle switch for "follow party leader", so that for mundane running around you only have to control the 1 chracter.