Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larion, we need to talk about the Githyanki and the creche

I think we need to take a step back here:

The githyanki and mindflayers have been at war for ages. In their world view and just general culture, they are taught to be the superior beings, they dont exactly mingle well with anyone else and prefer it that way. In fact, they would probably kill you for sport. (when you meet shadowheart on the ship, you get your first warning that LZ is bad news just for being gith, so right off the bat, trust issues and shadowhearts suggestion of finding a healer).

They have a way with dealing with tadpoles, which is what Laezel knows. But its ALL she knows. Its incredibly difficult to change their mind if their solution has worked for their people since time immemorial for them. Even if their solution is killing you outright.(the druid in the grove arrives at the same conclusion).

The way she behaves and acts, is COMPLETELY NORMAL for a githyanki when liaising with outsiders. Especially one with her own morals, culture and ambitions(to be a dragon knight or something, which by the way, is quite hard to do).

Now I dont know how you all arrived at the conclusion that the creche is the first place to go especially after shadowhearts immediate distrust, which signalled alarm bells to me(without even knowing what a gith was), I bumped into the druids before getting anywhere close to the creche, in fact I think I completely avoided it in the first playthrough and opted for the druid cure.

From what I have experienced, the creche is the FIRST option for removing the tadpole, with finding shadowhearts "healer" being a quick second choice at the start of the game, but upon exploring a bit more, when you meet the druids in the grove you are presented with alternative thinking, and they offer another solution via Halsin.

If you didnt already realising right in the beginning that shadowheart may have an alternate solution, It is at this point you realize, "Oh so Laezels method is NOT the only way, I have a few now" , and conceivably, Laezel doesnt know this either or really cares, having been taught that the creche is the ONLY way." , and shes welcome to continue that thinking, you would to if that's what you were taught for your entire life. It is only once you start allowing time to pass that you start to experience no symptoms, at this point you are presented another option, "what If this is different, maybe I should let this pan out and see how it goes". To laezel this is always going to be a no, because well, culture and experience unless larian has implemented something story wise.

The gith group you face, are knights, accomplished ones, they are supposed to be difficult, their entire lives are based on war and conflict and so it stands to reason that you are going to have a hard time and the game warns you about it to.

There may be more to this story as the early access progresses, but I think they have done a great job on representing the ruthlessness of the Githyanki through Laezel. If you think shes bad, wait till you meet the true fanatics.

You make some good points about potential trust issues, but I have some counterpoints. Firstly, the reason a lot of people see the creche as the first solution is that it's a solutioin presented by literally the first npc you meet, who as far as we're presented, is a character who will have a lot of expertise on the matter. Shadowheart doesn't trust her, but I don't believe she ever gives a good reason why. It always struck me as some kind of personal grudge more than anything. And also, Shadowheart doesn't really have her own solution. She just says to find a healer, which is generic as can be, and her dislike of LZ does make her a non-biased source. I didn't even stick around the grove on my first playthrough. I was playing an evil character who had no interest in anything but getting rid of the tadpole, and LZ was offering a definite potential solution as opposed to a vague "find someone who can help." So I went right to the patrol and got bodied. Only after I reloaded once or twice more did I decide to go back and do the grove stuff.

So yeah, to me LZ knew what she was talking about and Shadowheart didn't. I also rested as little as possible throughout my first playthrough and it wasn't until my second that I really absorbed that there wasn't actually an internal timer. I do agree with you about it making sense the gith are difficult, but it's still a massive difficulty spike compared to the rest of the area. It's something I'm convinced I would just never be able to win. And considering it's part of a companion quest and not some sort of bonus boss like the spider, that's weird.

I think the Gith patrol was the primary reason they added the Flee button. If you trigger the fight with them, and you are only maybe level 2 or 3, run like heck.

One of the only playthroughs I survived against them was because I had Astarion run to Waukeen's Rest while they chased him. Everyone else was dead. With the Flaming Fist helping, I killed them, had Astarion run back and Revivify everyone. That was pre-Flee button.

I do agree. I think they've done pretty well. However, they REALLY fell short at the end of the Kith'rak Voss dialogue. It is totally out of character and makes no sense for him to pull a 1960s Batman villain moment where he says, "I'll report to the others. You, underlings. Finish them and bring the weapon."

No. He'd want full credit for it. He'd be like, "Quedenos. End them.". Then he and his dragon would butcher you, take the weapon and leave. That part is not done well. He needs a MUCH better reason to leave.

I really hope that Githyanki encounter was just created to "test" our reactions for REALLY tough encounter ... and that it will be adjusted in final release. :-/
(And that the same test is repeated in Grymforge, when our testing showed that this encounter was not actualy so incredibly tough once we came prepared. )

I mean, i dont really mind fighting enemies on level 5 so early ...
I dont really mind if they are twice as powerfull as my lowlvly commoner ... i mean not-yet-so-experienced hero ...
I would just want them to have ... i dunno the corect word ... proper? That seems fine. So, proper statistic, acurate amount of HP, spellslots, prefferably not too much consumables (i mean they are allready strong as fuck, but when they started throwing bombs at me in lst patch, that seemed quite extreme!).

If you demand hard encounter Larian ... make it hard, nobody would blame you ... i mean they would, obviously, but i would not.
Just make it "fairly" hard ... boost our enemies by artificial means to give them double HP, great modifiers for stats, super strong equipment, and full asses of other items ... not cool, not cool at all! :-/

I would love that. ^_^

I mean its made abundantly clear by shadowheart you shouldn't trust her.

If you pass the perception check with Zorru you know shes hiding something.

If you actually talk to Lae'zel you learn shes the equivilant of a highschooler and probably knows the least out of all the companions.

When you see the dragon by the bridge the party says they should maybe turn back

When you get to the bridge now there is a teifling that tells you to run.

If you miss all these red flags I think most DM's would be fine if you got whats coming to you. Granted I wouldent take the group, but this is a game where you can reload. Can't do that in tt.

Given the many people who say: "You were warned about this encounter, that you shouldn't go there", let us play with that idea. What if you "take the hint" and just don't go there?

1) You are now forced to take the underground route to Moonrise tower, leaving an option of the game unexplored.

2) Isn't it funny that Lae'zel would stick to the party even though it must sooner or later become clear to her that we have no intention of seeking out the githyanki? Story wise that certainly is odd.

3) The designers work on the encounter is a waste, because we all get the hint and leave them alone.

Or you can simply try hard to pick those dialogue options that would most likely let you live ...
There is plenty of them, actualy the combat itself is quite rare, unless you get exceptionaly bad rolls.

Also, who say that you would let part of the game unexplored?
Its quite possible that the same spot will be accesible from other side aswell.

As far as i know, once you reach Githyanki patrol, Lae'zel leave your party and join them ...
Unless you have her in your camp, in wich case its just as funny as it is when you kill them all, and simply dont talk about it with her.

Nah, you just return once you get stronger.
Bcs no matter how many hints are there ... players allways want to see things.

This is the very subject of the first thread I made on the forum. I’m still on team “trust the Illithid hunter and not the shady racist”, but I have a question/comment.


I distinctly recall in previous patches Lae’zel being put to death by the Gith if you don’t join up with her fast enough. It didn’t happen in Patch 8. Is that a bug on my end? Because I’d no use for Lae’zel in Patch 7 (it was all about barbarians), I’m not sure if this is a recent change (or bug), but Patch 7 had already nerfed the Gith’s weapons.

It seems like Larian are slowly decreasing the challenge on this one, while upping xp gains overall. It might end up being challenging but doable instead of cheese-or-death.

Shadowheart is also dodgy AF, a worshiper of Shar who has a mysery object and a mystery mission she won't say anything about. Why should anyone trust her over Lae'zel?

Literally every single character companion is hiding something. Not trusting any of them on this basis would lead you nowhere. It's not about trust of the character, it's about the logic of what they're saying being plausible. Just because LZ doesn't know all doesn't undermine the basic experience of Gith with MF - there's no other race that should know more about them. The stuff LZ says in this regard is extremely plausible, and there are books on the Nautiloid that talk about the Gith - MF history if your character was previously ignorant of that.

You can see the dragon is in the area from the druid grove (via telescope). By that basis why even leave the grove? The dragon could see and get you anywhere if it's against you. If you're trusting to LZ then it's not a massive factor either way.

The tiefling isn't much of a muchness either way IMO.

Yes, there are reasons for not believing and ignoring LZ. But any party that chooses to have her in it also has pretty reasonable logic for going down this path.

And at the end of that day this is also what a lot of players do - the number of comments and suggestions on this issue on these forums and elsewhere demonstrate that this is a common response new players have.

Pretty sure there is an overgrown path in the goblin camp. If you keep going strait from the checkpoint.

Laezel is a child alone, and in an unfamiliar land. She needs all the help she an get.

Larian loves doing this though, seeding really hard optional fights you dont have to do is their bread and butter.


Lae'zel is a Githyanki a culture of evil space raiders led by an evil space queen and Lae'zel strait up tells you shes still in evil space high-school. The dragons and Githyanki raiders that attack the nautiloid also planely dont care about her. Based you can gater pretty early on that Lae'zel has no idea what she's talking about.

Shadow lies too shure but she's atleast putting you on the track of a finding a healer. A viable path.

Well yeah if you see the dragon on telescope the spart play is to avoid the road path and go with the goblin.

The only way trusting Lae'zel seems like a good idea is if the party has no idea how githyanki society works. But heck even then she'll strait up tell you a creche is basically high-school if you ask her

She "lies too shure".

What about the part where she's (poorly) hiding the fact she's on a secret mission for an evil god?

My issue here is that this isn't just an optional fight. It's a major part of a companion quest. If you skip it, you aren't just missing a fight and maybe some loot, you're missing the opportunity to interact with one of your companions, and in a game like this, that's a huge chunk of the reason a lot of people play. Sure you don't technically have to do it in the strictest sense, but if you don't, you're genuinely missing out on a meaningful part of the game and story.


1) All Shadowheart really says is to find a healer. She doesn't actually point us in any direction we didn't already find outselves. Basically all she's doing is telling someone with a broken leg to find a hospital, without knowing where any hospital is. She's doing nothing but stating the obvious, while Lae'Zel is at least presenting us with a clearly defined solution.

2) I had no idea about how githyanki society works. I had no idea about the nature of their queen, beyond her seeming to just be some goddess or otherworldly entity. She may bethe equivalent of a high schooler, but she's from a school that specifically trains her to fight things that everyone else we're likely to meet either doesn't know exist or only has fairly vague knowledge of at best. Also, I always read her as being just a common foot soldier rather than a high schooler. She's had her basic training and everything, but doesn't have a meaningful rank yet.

1. When Shadowheart says that we should find a healer, I consider the githyanki creche to fall under that heading, so it always surprises me when Laezel disapproves.

2. I see nothing wrong with listening to Laezel. Her kind know more about the mind flayers than most.

3. I imagine most players tend to deal with the areas they're in before moving on to the next area. Meaning, by the time you reach the githyanki patrol, you're probably already 4th level and have some decent equipment.

4. Even Tav says Halsin is the best option. This happens when you read Halsin's notes after talking to Nettie, assuming you take the time to read what's sitting on the table by the drow.

5. The plot makes it more than clear that Halsin is an important option for the player to follow up on.

6. If you make it to the githyanki patrol, combat is not a given.

7. If you do engage in combat with the githyanki, you can win without relying on exploits. It's difficult, but absolutely winnable.

8. If you don't win, apologies, but so what? You losing a combat doesn't make the combat bad. I happen to enjoy the fight.

9. There will probably be difficulty levels in the final release.

Shadow isn't giving you false hope.

A Githyanki creche is specifically a nursery. At maturity they end up leaving for the Astral plane. She also has no sign of plot nerfs bringer her back down to level 1 like the experienced companions do.

Shes a child. And like any child you dont trust them with your life even if their heart is in the right place.

I cant resist this ...

Can i ask you where you get that expression?
Since Shadowheart litteraly hates Githyanki, keep claiming that you should have kill Lae'zel when you finded her, and when you dig deep enough (dunno if that is still the case, i dislike this person so i avoid many interactions with her ... but it was in past patches) she litteraly tells you that she would rather accept deal with Raphael, than give herself into their hands.


3 problems:

1) People lie ... and Evil races from DnD lie twice as much.
And even if she would not lie (since Lae'zel indeed seems like quite straight person, not bcs she would think that lying is bad ... more like bcs she would not even bother) she may not say the whole truth ... and as the Githyanki encounter shows us (even tho i know its too late in that case) she may not even *know* the whole truth.

2) How do you know? :P
I mean, i know, you know ... but how do your Tav know?
Since our characters dont have the luxury of opening wikipedia in next tab and read about Githyanki.

You get me right?
The only info Lae'zel can provide you is how ceremorphosis is working ... wich is litteraly exactly the same as what Gale tells you ... and yet you concider her informations to be more solid.
Beyond that, all you can say for sure it that Lae'zel presumes that her people are better in everything ... wich by her own words includes tadpole remowal ...
But as the story goes, if you dare to go against her ... you can show her in multiple cases that her way is not the only way, and certainly not the best way either.
For example with Zoru ...

3) (Wich one could say is the most important point)
Even if those both would be ignored or answered somehow ... meaning our Tav would honestly and surely *KNOW* that her people know more about Mind Flayers than most ...
Then our Tav would also *KNOW* that they are extremely xenophobic and closeminded nation, that is raiding our world any time they see fit ... and they would most likely rather cut our head off, bcs we were infected, than benevolently help us.


Even if that would be right, it would only mean that argument that happens here dont include them.


Even if ... that that alone is huge if, bcs im not aware of this situation and wont lie to you ... i dont believe he did ...

You should take under concideration that when this claim could have ben made ... Halsin was more like the only option.

Also it dont really exclude meeting with Githyanki. O_o
And that was the point here wasnt it?


Again ... it dont. :P


True!


Again, true ... even tho it seemed easier in Patch 7 ...

Either that, ot Barbarian was closer to my heart than Bard ...
Wich is hardly surprising, even cow turd is closer to my heart than Bards. :-/


But its true that this fight is really hard, and if RNG screws you, you REALLY feels it here. :-/

It happened several times to me that my party had bad rolls for initative ... and both my meelers ended up dead before my first character get even chance to do anything, since i get two crittical strikes. :-/

While the fight can be fun indeed ... this isnt it.
Thats pure essence of frustration.


Thats hardly an argument ...
Unless you will change your difficiulty before and after every battle (wich we dont even know if that will be possible). :-/

Problem many people have with Githyanki is that they are conciderably harder than many other encounters they meet til this one. And it really is ...
Goblins are hardly any challenge, aswell as Gnolls ... and unless you get into spider lair, or the Underdark, Githyanki are basicaly the only challenge you meet ... at least on surface.
And while you are used on enemies you hit with almost every attack, since they have 12-15AC ... sudently you are missing like crazy, since they have 17(18? not sure now) ...
While you are used that your spells often work ... sudently your enemies are resisting everything ...

Your sleep is useless, bcs they have artificaly incerased hitpoints to ridiculous amount ... your AoE spells give shit damage, bcs they have ridiculously high Dexterity, so they sucess in saving throws often ... your other spells are also useless, since they have also high Wisdom, so they resist most of them ... they also keep most of your group in Sleep, or Silence, so if you relayed on some strategic positioning, they turned it against you.

That is the problem here.
It feels like if you would kill two rats in some old RPG ... and the game would send against you final boss from Dark Souls as you next enemy.

Because "heal" means to heal. If the githyanki can remove the parasite, then it technically counts as healing, and to me, that's what Tav thinks when the question is answered. Thus, it surprises me when Laezel disapproves.

I intellectually understand that Shadowheart doesn't mean the githyanki when she talks about finding a "healer," but that's only an understanding I developed after playing the game.


Let me clarify, then.

A. I see nothing wrong with a player buying into what Laezel is saying.

B. I see nothing wrong with a player not buying into what Laezel is saying.

C. I don't believe there is any one gospel truth as to what a player should think about what Laezel is saying.


What it means is that we're not talking about a systemic problem.



Tav 100% says outright that Halsin is the best option. This is a fact, not a debate.


Yes, it does.


Agreed.


Yeah, I tend to think the barbarian is a lot more effective than the bard. Most combats, in my opinion, feel easier with the barbarian.


Shrug. I agree. The fight is hard. The dice sometimes go against you. I also enjoy the fight.


Sure it is. If the fight is too hard for you, lower the difficulty.

As for the difficulty of the fight: it's winnable. In fact, I've never lost the fight. I'm not saying it's not hard, and I'm not saying that I might not lose the fight one day. Actually, even though I've never lost the fight, it's almost always very close.

I don't use exploits. I don't take barrels into the fight. I don't jump around invisible with the hammer that does damage when you jump. I don't even start by hiding my companions on top of the bridge.

But I do tend to use consumables in the fight. Potions, scrolls, etc.



This I have a real problem with.

I do not like it when the NPCs play by different rules. It is my strongly held opinion that NPCs should have the same rules for stats and hit points and abilities and everything. If the NPC needs to be stronger, raise the level by following the same rules.

- Gith know more about Illithids than most other races.
- LZ is an ordinary foot soldier. She has probably learned the history or their people (enslavement by Illithids, saved by Gith), that Illithids have strong mental powers and they infect people with tadpoles to reproduce.
- She may have heard that there is a cure, but she knows no details.

Now comes the problem:
Gith would kill any infected person at once (including a food soldier like LZ) unless this person is really importent to them.
At this point of the game we are just travellers or a low ranking Gith.
So cutting heads off is the only "therapy" they would give you.

I agree with most of OP's points.

I remember back in patch 1, because ceremorphosis supposedly takes a week, in my very first run, I save scummed to finish almost the entire act 1 (up to freeing Halsin) with no long rests. That was A LOT of save scumming! What did that get me? Broken companion quests, loss of lore, and no tadpole powers. Thank Llolth barrelmancy was a huge thing! And stealth was so OP against the AI. I didn't even see the tadpole dreams! I'd been too afraid of using the parasite so my first Underdark sleep was dreamless. I finally found out from reddit! Does a new player know that they shouldn't rush? NO. All the companion dialogue everyone here mentioned happens over time. We were encouraged not to waste the time we had left by every person we met. IF we took them seriously, we would lack the additional info saying "hey, maybe our tadpoles are actually not acting like normal illithid tadpoles... maybe we're not actually changing into monsters just yet".

Fast forward to patch 8. Most classes get to use the tadpole on the ship, we get the first dream, we get more dialogue hinting that our problem is no longer so urgent... Awesome! The changes are subtle but very on point! Kudos to the devs. BUT Lae'zel still demands we act fast and unlike Shadowheart (who says, look for a healer... wow, thanks Shadowheart, that is so specific), Astarion (find someone who can control this thing... could you be more vague and unhelpful?), or Nettie (master Halsin was studying these things... he probably can't cure you, but might be able to tell you more... sounds dodgy, but thanks Nettie)... Lae'zel has a clear game plan: Find a creche. The creche has a zaith'isk - a purifying device especially crafted by the mlar, their most talented artisans -, which a caretaker will affix to the infected's head and quell the parasite. Although dodgy, this is the closest thing to a solution anyone offers. No ifs or maybes. And this is coming from the illithids' ancient enemies so you'd expect them to have some way to counter a 'biological weapon' like tadpole infection.

Sure, metagaming or trial and error will eventually give you more info - and better, easier paths - but what the OP said, from a narrative point of view, still stands. For people who haven't put 350 hours into EA like I have... a few more adjustments to Lae'zel's dialogue couldn't hurt. Or if that's really something they don't want to change... adjust the actual fight. What's with all the extra attacks per round thing? What's with that number of hitpoints and that armor? Were they on sale? I want to buy me some of that... I pickpocketed Arron every day, I'm sure I could afford some of that super armor and uber HP. Even the lvl 8 cambions on the ship didn't have that... Suddenly all these gith mooks do? All of them? Random peon #4 is more awesome than Tav and Team? That makes Tav cry.

Those are all good points ...
Wich our characters (you know, the people who should ACTUALY made decisions) most likely (unless they are surprisingly educated half-elf, urchin, Shar cleric, that was send to suicide mission like a common foot soldier) never know.

Remember Gith are aliens ...
Fear of them dont originate in years of enslavement, terorizing and murdering ... as it is for example with Drow.
Most people who fear Gith fears them bcs they dont know them, bcs they look odd and hostile, and bcs they often act hostile aswell.
Basicaly, until some interaction happens, its xenophobia in its purest form ... surprisingly acurate tho.

---

Speaking about metagaming ...

---

Technicaly maybe ...
But i believe that Lae'zel understands it as you either are looking for Creche > she approves ... or you are looking for litteraly anything else > she disaprooves.

I see ... well, as i said i didnt talk with her for quite some time ... so its possible that this part of dialogue was removed in order to make her "nicer" ...
But i remember her specificly telling me that while it sounds like horrible idea, she would still rather put her life in hand of that Gobin priest, than thrusting a Githyanki ...
And that was in Druid Groove ... so quite early.

This is good to know ... i gues.
But it didnt clarify, nor answered any of those questions.

How would you call it then? O_o
Git gud?

So you said ...
The question was in what situation ...

Honestly ... your inability (or unwillingness) to answer dont add much credibility to that claim. :-/

Nope ...
No matter how many times you repeat it, he is only one of your options ... nothing more, nothing less ...
He is the first one you can reach IF you follow certain path, that much credit i can give him, but still not the only one, and faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being the "best one".

That both is just your headcannon.

Well, to be fair i had the same feeling with Sorcerer and Druid. :-/

You presume there will be the option ...
I didnt play DoS so i dont know Larian approach to this ... but dont you know that there actualy are games, where you can only choose difficiulty at start? O_o

I admit that they are mostly "older" games ...
But still, its not impossible ... Larian may for example decide to make this difficiulty we just play to be "Easy" ... and made nothing easier.

We simply dont know > thats why its not an argument.

And irellevant ...

You, me, and concidering this forum alone few dozens of others.

And its not "just" hitpoints ... but also their stats imho.
Even tho *that* part can easily be argued by that fact that we have promised rolled stats ... they just rolled exceptionaly well ... all of them. -_-

But until i will be able to start my Barbarian with 20-14-20-?-?-? on level 1 ...
I will be complaining that those toadfaces have unfair statistics!

Wich ... to be completely honest ... kinda shows that Larian is unwilling or unable to create challenging encounter without cheating ... and that is in some point of view, quite sad.
And frigtening ... :-/

Lae’zel isn't even a foot soldier yet, shes a trainee