Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larion, we need to talk about the Githyanki and the creche

I realize this has probably been said before, but it isn't fixed so I'll say it again.

Listen, I've had the game since patch 7 came out, and I've tried many, many times over multiple characters with just about every tactic I can think of. I have never been able to walk up to the Githaynki, do what I've been told to do, and survive.

What is the deal with making the Githyanki squad so powerful? Yes, I get it, they are a Githyanki squad and they have good gear on them. But let's stop and think about this.

The SECOND, absolute SECOND we get Lae'zel, we are told that we HAVE to get to the Creche, or we will die. If Lae'zel is in our party, she reminds us every five feet. She isn't insistent upon it, she is OBSESSED. No, druids can't help, no, no 'normal' healer on Faerun can help, she makes it clear that the ONLY way for us to survive is to go to the Creche and ask to be cleansed. This is not some minor hint or subquest, this is shoved in our face. If we listen to Lae'zel (which we should, she's the closest thing to an expert on mind flayers after all) then the videogame is about getting to the creche and the druid stuff is just background stuff. She even assures us that the Githyanki will heal us non-gith because we are her slaves and she 'needed us to survive.'

So we go get to the creche, do what we are told, and bam, dead.

Do you have ANY idea how frustrating this would be in a DnD game?
GM: You need to get to this creche or you'll die.
Players (us): Oh, okay, god, we found it. We tell them to help us, like Lae'zel promised they would.
GM: Oh, wow, you guys bought that? No, no they just kill you all, they are way more powerful than you. Roll new characters.
(All players walk away from the game)

Sure, there is a 'clue' in how the commander acts, but he's being a jerk, and Lae'zel is a jerk. Based on everything we know about the Githyanki, this is perfectly normal behavior for them. And then boom, out of nowhere, the githyanki slaughter you.

Listen, if you want to have a super tough optional fight . . . that's fine. The hag fights are fine because they are optional. But this is made to be part of the MAIN QUEST. And if you don't want the players to have access to such powerful equipment without a tough fight, downgrade the githyanki equipment.

I just . . . I want to know why? Why would you tell the players that the main plot is to go to X, only for X to be a super deadly OPTIONAL fight? It's not fun, it's not cool, and it's just a beginner's trap. C'mon Larion, that's not good storytelling, that's the move of a vengeful and sadistic GM.

From what I can tell this is meant to be a "Your not supposed to be fighting them right now" kinda encounter.. now I can tell you I have beaten it a few times myself its a hard encounter if you don't know what your doing but not impossible. The game even tells you like 4 times "You really shouldnt pick this fight right now"

Also as for the "cure" itself as far as we know a githyanki cure called "purification" could just be decapitation as far as we know.. she is not an expert its even possible to pick on the fact she dosent really know what the cure is in the grove.

The Githyanki are NOT the main plot they are ONE path now true if you wanna experience all of the stories the game has your gonna have to deal with em at some point or another but you don't need to fight you can just talk your way out of a fight. Possibly killing them now will change some things when you go to the crèche specially from what we know will happen theyre with the datamined content.

Also keep in mind BECAUSE its EA you are limited to lvl 4 when full game release you will most likely be able to hit lvl 5 or 6 depending on how you play so the encounter will be much easier.

+1

This is the main reason I rarely take Lae'zel in my party. She is so obsessed with leading you to this encounter early on that she actually threatens to kill you if you don't. Add to this the fact that Lae'zel considers you and the other party members as inferior beings equivalent to worms and no better than slaves. Thus it is utterly immersion breaking to have Lae'zel in your party and do ANYTHING other than head straight to the Gith encounter ASAP. Even if you successfully use the dialogue to make it through this encounter she STILL wants too head to the creche which seems impossible in EA.

Bottom line is that Lae'zel is a lousy companion from a story point of view.

Even putting aside all the times we discussed this topic in the past, we were just having ANOTHER thread about it yesterday in General:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=820984#Post820984

Just to summarize quickly my take on the issue (AGAIN): I don't think the problem is the difficulty of the fight, the problem is the way the encounter is framed for new players.
You are actively encouraged to rush toward the creche as soon as you can (or more properly: relentlessly nagged about going there) only to find yourself facing one of the toughest encounters in EA.

What's worse, once you are there and the event with Lae'zel rushing ahead is triggered, there's no sensible option to back off: you either pass the encounter on the spot (through dialogue or fight) or it will be the death of your companion.

Yeah, this game has more than one problem managing "narrative urgency".

Either you are told "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE IN 5 MINUTES" but then you can long-rest an indefinite amount of times (and you need to if you want to experience all the party dynamics), or you are told "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE IN 5 MINUTES" and then you really die because you made the rational call to rush to your salvation only to find an insurmountable fight.

As Tuco said, the fight isn't all that difficult but is just deadly if a player is going to face it as soon as it can (as the in-game lore suggests to do).

First off, nothing in game suggests that you are going to die in 5 minutes. You are reminded multiple times that ceramorphosis duration is about a week. And even Lae'zel tells you that symptoms you might suffer, become more severe the closer you are to your "expiration date", but however many times you rest you are showing none of those. Not to mention multiple times in game you are being told that those tadpoles are diffrent.

Secondly why trusting Lae'zel is a rational thing to do? She is unclear about what the purification might entail, she's alien to Faerun and the way you meet her after Nautoloid crash shows that she would be unable to survive on her own. For me it's clear that she is joining you because she needs you, not other way around. Furthermore, all other companions suggest finding Halsin as a better bet for cure. It takes a big lapse of logic to assume that doing what she wants as soon as possible is the way to go.

As for fight itself, it's not uncommon for cRPGs put fights like that as a barrier. I'd assume that whatever fights wait you on that path later on are even more difficult.

On my first playthrough I didn’t go there until after finding Halsin because purification sounded like they were going to kill the party to me. She wasn’t very happy at the party.😜

First off, those are some good points, but I'd like to counter them.

While you might not die 'in five minutes' and you are told that something is weird with your 'tadpole' everyone you meet still tells you "We don't know what is going on, you could still change at a moment's notice, you should get that out of you ASAP." And while Lae'zel isn't exactly the nicest person on the planet (or in the planes) she is the closest thing you have to an expert on mind flayers. Sure, she doesn't know Faerun, but she's been raised since birth to hunt ilithids and dialog even tells you that her people have access to a massive library the likes of which the planes have never seen. She is clearly the most knowledgable about mind flayers, and so the players are led to believe they can trust her on this issue. Up until the creche, everything she's said and done about mind flayers has been true. She knew the layout of the Nautalis, she knew how to activate the teleporter thing to get you to Faerun, she knows the capabilities of the Mind Flayers . . . she's been spot on about everything (except you turning, but then again, that has thrown EVERYONE for a loop.) Listen, just because Gale doesn't know squat about camping or Astarion doesn't know squat about surviving on the streets doesn't mean that they aren't experts in the weave or navigating the social circles of the upper crust. Same with Lae'zel: she's an expert on Mind Flayers (or as close as you have anyway)

But that's all besides the point. The game shouldn't lead you to an insurmountable fight unless it gives you plenty of warning. The Hag is a fine example of this. Every time you go after the hag, the fights get harder and harder and you get the distinct impression that the Hag is super powerful and hates you. You are given multiple chances to back off if you don't think you can handle her. That is fine. Having the game go "Hey, go here, see, this character even says it's okay. Look at all these cool lore drops we are giving you! HAHA You're dead!" is NOT cool and not fun.

Listen, if Lae'zel, before going in says "Wait, something is not right, he's not following protocol! He may have gone rogue, I suggest we leave now." then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If the Gith weren't as superpowered as they are so that a group of level 4s can't even take them down, then we wouldn't have this conversation. It's the fact that it is an insurmountable fight that we are not warned about and are, in fact, told it may be our best chance to live.

Now yes, there are some clues that things are not all on the up and up. The red dragon roasts some humans right before we go in, that's a problem. But we are assured that isn't OUR problem. Lae'zel assures us again and again that this is the best chance we have, and then even if you get cold feet she will fail her deception check 9 times out of 10 and the party still dies.

Yeah, it bothers me so much. Lae'zel is the first companion we meet, she objectively knows more about mindflayers than anyone else in the party, and more than most people we consult about them. She tells us over and over that this is our best chance. In a sea of maybes and supposed experts being befuddled, she presents clear, reliable knowledge consistently. Sure, there's a check where we can learn she isn't sure what the cure is, but still, her people clearly know their mindflayer business. Plus to me at least it seemed unlikely that they would have lied to her about it. Gith are clearly trained to be fanatical and it's already clear she's willing to die rather than turn, so why lie about there being a cure? When I first played the game, I went straight to the patrol and lost every time. I gave up and am not even going to try until I'm able to level the party more.

What's more though, once we know that the fight is too difficult for us, it's not even an interesting dilemma. We just have to not confront them. Lae'zel doesn't mind us going a different route, there's no risk of her leaving, nothing. Once the shock is gone, there's nothing left but a frustrating combat.

+1

Some super good points are raised here. The only goal Lae'zel has from the start is to reach other githyanki to be purified, so it makes very good sense (if you want her in your party) to make that a priority. No wonder we all rush to the githyanki patrol, just to be killed. It is for me the single thing out of place in the game so far.

I gotta admit id love it to be better communicated to you whats going on. When I first played this game I tried to avoid long rests like the plague because I thought this would screw me over if I did .. combine that with no using the tadpoles powers at all I only learned way later that you could long rest as much as you want.

I really like it as it is. :-/
Quite honestly, the more i play this game ... the rarely this encounter ends with fight. O_o

I have played it through many times, and I have never avoided the fight. If there was a way to easily avoid it the whole thing would make more sense.

Another thing that bothers me is when (or if) you win the fight, why is there no discussion of the "weapon" the githyanki seek? It should be clear to all after Shadowheart revealed what she was carrying that they are actually in possession of said weapon. Would it not be natural for Lae'zel to demand that Shadowheart hand it over, to satisfy the demand of the githyanki? Yes, there is probably a reason why parting with the artisfact would ruin the story, but still, some conversation on the topic would be natural.

I'm willing to give Larian the benefit of the doubt for now and assume that there's no discussion of this because this section of EA is entirely incomplete.

There are a few things wrong with this encounter:

the Kithrak, Voss, if told we're the ones he's looking for, promptly gets on his dragon and flies away; "Ah, you have the weapon I'm looking for...I'd better get on my flying war crime and go-Baretha take care of them and bring me the weapon"; It's James Bond logic bordering on Austin Powers logic.

the conversation is started by Lae'zel but its beats are dictated by the PC, and we still have the issue of unclear motivations, between Lae'zel and the Githyanki and Lae'zel and the party. Lae'zel makes it clear that our lives in her eyes are pretty much forfeit, she tells us this explicitly and if you probe her mind you learn she views us already as monsters, so why she's so surprised by the patrols reaction isn't really clear to me.
But I think one of Lae'zel's character traits is naivete, slightly obscured by her coming from a very alien culture, maybe that's why people are so willing to follow her lead when it comes to the creche, despite a slew of red flags telling us that these fellows are bad news. Most of the corpses we find in the EA are killed by the Gith, and we see them murder a lance of flaming fist, I understand that nobody remembers Alderaan, but I'm still not sure how we can drive the point home better.

The encounter's placement on the map isn't a big deal to me, but some the logic around it are. I don't think following Lae'zel around like she knows what she's doing is reasonable for most characters, except another Githyanki.

It's reasonable for any character that is more naive than LZ is. If you play a char that doesn't know about MF and Gith already then LZ is presented right from the get go as the best authority going around.

Gale is maybe the next best counter to LZs authority in this area, and if you have Gale in your squad he APPROVES when you indicate you're going to follow LZs lead.

The only way to avoid this issue from a narrative focus is to not have LZ around - Gale also approves killing the goblins and chasing down Halsin - or to have a PC that you consider more knowledgeable than LZ.

On the latter part, RP aside, how many new players to BG3 will have any meta-knowledge about D&D such that they will consider LZ up front as the naive bluster full character that she is?

It's anecdotal, but we see new players time and time again not realising they should rest more often, can avoid following LZ, and that Halsin is actually #1 and the creche thing is actually just LZs personal sidequest.

The way the game is currently structured it is also very likely that many parties will pick up LZ, as she's the first companion you meet and gets her emotional bond into the players early. Maybe this will all swing around at the end and they have a different plan for it all.. but it seems unlikely.

100% Agree ... this SHOULD have ben trap scenario in that dialogue.

And personaly i blame Early Acess for it isnt ...
I still remember that shitstorm that started on forum, when EA started and people find out that they may die during the dialogue with dying Illithid ...
To me it seems like everything in that dialogue was litteraly screaming: "Save yourself, this is your last chance!" ... but some people decided to lean closer anyway, and surprise surprise, that brain eating mind controlling thing controlled their mind so it can eat their brain. -_-
And people get angry.
Therefore Larian got scared and didnt include any other certain death traps into conversations.

This should be easy ...
She sees us as monsters allready, bcs as Faerûnians(?) we are lower beings for her ... it seems a little odd, if we play as a Githyanki, but since our Githyanki PC seems to be so ignorant so s/he never even heared about purification, we might lower oureself in her eyes. :-/
But she is a Githyanki, even more a Githyanki that is quite sure about her own superiority ...

Maybe i explained it badly, but to me it seemed like that anger moment when person who are certain that he is extra special is treated as any other commoner.

I believe she would be quite fine with it, if Kithrak would demand our heads ... but promises that he will help her ... its quite possible that was even the plan.
The problem (and source of her surprise) is that he DARED to attack HER!

Agreed ...
And another Githyanki have much less problems with making a deal with Kithrak.

What annoys me about the Githyanki are their stupidly high attribute scrores that make your party of "chosen heroes" feel like commoners in comparison.

Just.. why? If you need a challenging enemy you raise their level. You don't need to give humanoid / player race enemies godly attribute scores because the comparison and logic in the world does exist.

If random nameless Githyanki are so gifted and badass compared to say Lae'zel with her reasonable point buy stats, perhaps the random nameless Githyanki should be the heroes instead? Lae'zel only wins because the player can do game exploits, Shove better than the AI, and "cheat" with items. It's not a very heroic feeling. A much better feeling would be to win "straight" against a non-pumped enemy by using your party's abilities well together.

Agreed, completely.