Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Larion, we need to talk about the Githyanki and the creche

You bring up a lot of good points about how the framing of the tadpole and ceremorphsis has been made more clear throughout the patches. I, and a lot of people it seems, played the first patch, really thinking this phase of the game was going to be a desperate scrabble to put-off a gruesome death, which really messed up a lot of the conversation and quest flags, placeholder though they may have been.

I don't really have too much trouble with the framing of creche quest and the Gith patrol as it is, it's gone relatively unchanged since the beginning, I think they added some business with the artifact, but otherwise we have Lae'zel giving us a clear objective, a trail of corpses you'll probably never talk to, and cowardly tieflings telling you they're bad news; not really anything to help us gauge the trouble we're about to get into. Showing us that the Gith can terrorize a bunch of refugees and a stuttering Fist lieutenant doesn't really drive home very well, emotionally, the stakes of the encounter, unlike what intellectually you should know about a dragon and the Gith.

before leaving the grove (because who would bypass the grove...) you have three equally tenuous ways of getting rid of the tadpole, the Gith, Halsin and Priestess Gut. I think we're expected to choose which one to pursue based on what kind of character we are and which companions we're inclined to believe more. Note that each of these routes lead to map exits and involve large fights, Halsin and Gut at the temple, and the Creche with the patrol.

As far as Lae'zel's credentials, she mentions that creche K'liir has one of the finest libraries in planes at one point, and possibly that the purification apparatus was developed there, of course I'm not sure when you get this dialogue, or if you have to be Gith to get it either, I'll have to play again some.
I think she also has a dialogue about the Gith always needing servants, if you ask her how the Gith will treat you as non-Gith.

The Gith patrol is the second hardest encounter in the EA for me, after the hag, and part of the trouble with the logic behind it is that it kind of reads as a cinematic encounter, something put there to establish a major henchman, give us another taste of dragon, and telegraph to us that the Gith are not to be trifled with and are after you.

also welcome back Neleothesze

What questions are you talking about? I don't understand what you're saying. Do you have a specific question?

I'm simply saying that I think there's a case to be made for believing Laezel, and equally, I believe there's a case to be made for not trusting Laezel.


I *literally* put the situation where it happens in the comment you originally quoted in this exchange.

It happens after you talk to Nettie, in the room with the drow on the table, after you read Halsin's notes. Tav specifically says that Halsin looks like the best option.

And no, at this stage it's not reasonable to say that Halsin is the only option. By this point, Laezel has already made her pitch about a creche, and Sazza has already brought up Priestess Gut. The only way you can say Halsin is the only option at this point is if the player just skipped the other stuff.


First, Tav claims that Halsin looks like the best option.

I claimed that Halsin is clearly an important option based on the plot as presented.

At what point did someone make the claim that Halsin was the only option? Who are you shadowboxing with here?

And yes, Halsin is obviously an important option in the plot, which is made abundantly clear--especially to anyone who understands storytelling--by the sheer amount of screen time his presence occupies.


I haven't been able to play a full game with the druid. I just can't get into them for some reason.

But the sorcerer, yes. Unbelievably powerful, in my opinion. That said, I hope they don't nerf it because the sorcerer is by far my favorite class.


The conversation is about the fight being too hard. Several people have mentioned that they don't think they can win the fight without relying on exploits.

I am saying that the fight is winnable without leaning on exploitive tactics. This is entirely relevant. I can't think of anything more relevant. I don't think the fight should change because I enjoy the challenge, and furthermore, the fight is winnable. If the fight were not winnable, I would agree that something might need changing.

As a general rule you can judge the level of quality a conversation has degraded to by the frequency of people multi-quoting and nitpicking back and forth.

There's generally use useful flow to a conversation, and where you feel the need to go through something someone else has said line my line as if you're doing a close reading English essay (and that's bad even in an essay)... that flow is disappearing.

I think the conversation would be better served by making your points of argument cohesive of themselves, if that's the road you're committed to go down (not going to single out anyone here directly, it happens with a few).

Asuming you even talked to Sazza, or she is still alive ...
Same goes to Lae'zel ...

But even if ... and that alone is a big if, your other options are:
eiter a Goblin, creature that is known for being treacherous, canibalistic, sadistic, and few other stuff for wich most adventurers tolerate them only on the pointy end of their swords ...
or a Githyanki, creature that IF it is even known to your character, is known for being xenophobic, cruel, and existencionaly hating anything that is even in slightest way tied to mind flayers ... as that little creeper in your head for example.

So yes, basicaly Halsin is your only option.

Unless YOU are Githyanki yourself, obviously.

And i disagree with that claim ...
Since you can easily kill Halsin and basicaly nothing will change, you just wouldnt have one big elf in your camp ... and Icelyn will will frown on you.

Maybe i take this a little too seriously, over all those past conversations, when people were trying to persuate me about that: "Any other way than helping Halsin makes no narrative sense" ...
I completely missed that you call him being just an "option" this whole time. -_-

Yeah heard that before aswell ...

Funny that some of those people, if pushed long enough, admits things like they concidered Potion as a Bonus action to be an exploit. :-/
That should be the question here ... what "exploits" are we talking about?

Cant say i dont understand you ... i was in the same spot not so long ago.
Many people were trying to persuate me that fights in this game (and this one especialy) are quote "created around exploits and gimmics" ... and i just like you were arguing that since the fight is doable without either of those, i simply cant agree with such claim.
I also like the challenge, even tho i still believe i would like it much more if they werent cheating. (HP+stats, the same song over and over)

But it is irellevant, bcs if (and yes its just an example i dont have statistic, but Larian do) 90% of people gets massacred by Githyanki ...
No matter if *you* specificly managed to kill them or not, or if you enjoyed the fight or not ... what matters is that so many players didnt even stand a chance.

And yes, it obviously works both ways, wich would make your opinion part of that relevant group if the statistic would be in fact other way around, im aware.
Just counting people in this very topic ... we seem to be in minority. :-/

Listen, guys, let's stop attacking each other. I think we can both agree, that if THIS many people think there is a problem. There is a problem. Obviously, at least for some, the 'red flags' are not 'red flaggy enough.' And even if they were, putting an insurmountable (or nearly insurmountable, especially if you don't know its coming) fight in the game just plain isn't fun. From a meta perspective, putting a fight that you are lead to (red flags or not) that you are not meant to be able to win is not fun. Sure, that might be how the real world works, but this is a videogame where you are meant to have fun! Kick back and feel like a big GD hero. Not get your face stomped because you listened to one NPC over another.

Can we at least agree on that?

Eh ... no. :-/
I cant agree with sentence that contradits itself in my eyes. :-(

There is no "feel like big GD hero" (whatever that means) without challenge ... not for me. :-/

Also, im not aware that anybody attacked someone. O_o

Assuming it's designed as a "mirror match" encounter where you fight opponents that have all of your tricks too, then the double problem imo is they all have 'boss health', and they're at least level 5, which you can't really handle in early access, because level 5 is when things like two attacks and whatnot start kicking in. If the AI focuses on one npc in a round then that's it, they're dead. In contrast, it takes several from you to get a single foe killed without exploiting the hell out of the terrain and your items, something that game encourages and rewards; here it's mandatory though. I wouldn't be especially annoyed by this is it was a 'bonus boss' thing, like Kanaxai in BGII. This is absolutely not that however, it's very easy to run into this fight.

Listen, there's a difference between challenge and "A fight you are not expecting that you absolutely cannot win unless you prepare ahead of it which you can't because in character you don't know it is coming." Sure if you have all the perfect spells prepped and you prepare your party just so that that everything is just right and you've got through the underdark to pick up the adamantine armor then yes, sure, maybe you can win. But not when you are level two and a character you have at least some reason to trust tells you you MUST go there only to die. That's not fun. That's not good gameplay, and y'know what? if that happened in a real TTRPG I'm betting all the players would walk away from the table.

And I didn't mean attack attack, but a lot of people have been pretty . . . shall we say aggressive with their retorts. "You shouldn't listen to Lae'Zel and if you do it's your own damn fault'' with the implication that you are stupid if you listen to her is . . . let's just say a tad on the aggressive side.

Indeed ... but your previous words didnt include any challenge at all.

Maybe we play different kind of characters, but mine is usualy fully aware that this world is freaking dangerous ... therefore they leave the camp only if they feel like being preared for that danger.

I mean what preparation can you do anyway ...
Cast Mage Armor, and False Life or Armor of Agathys, summon your familiar, drink some resistance potion (I mean why would you drag them otherwise? Its too late when you are allready burning. ) check if each member of your party have enough potions and poisons in case you would meet any danger (Not important since we have Magic pockets tho, and can drink potions straight from someone else inventory ) and that you have right artefacts equipped ...
And thats it.
All seems to me like proper preparation before you go adventuring.

As for positioning before battle, wich is also kinda preparing ... Githyanki start to turning this tactics against me lately ...
But if we put aside the fact that this game is for some reason forcing your whole party to be present personaly no matter if they really stand next to your character, or hiding in the bush abowe trying REALLY hard to remain undetected ...
Then it also makes sense, you just withnessed them as they murdered to death bunch of Flaming Fist knights, just bcs ... Zoru (presuming you talked to him) told you they are cold heart murderers, and Lae'zel confrims this by mocking Zoru that they didnt cause his friends additional harm by twisting their blades ... any sensible party (by my opinion at least) would split into at least two groups, where one would go there and talk, and others will hide around and act as backup, in case something would go wrong.

You exaggerated and you know it.
Come on, if you really want people to take this topic seriously, then try to take it seriously yourself first.

Nope ...
You die if you go there AND you start a fight ... but you certainly dont "must" go there ... and you also certainly dont "must die" when you go there.

Those statements are simply false.

Well, knowing my party we would certainly not.
We had some "they are too strong" encounters in the past ... NPCs were yelling at us that they will stall them and we should run ... exactly the LotR "run you fools" scene ... but we (to our DM discomfort) said "then we die fighting" ...
He learned tho, in next scenario he used infinite spawn and added 5 enemies each round, so we finaly understand he REALLY dont want us to fight here.
But it was fun. ^_^

But even if ... so what?
I mean it was their decision to ignore all the hints and red flags, it was their decision to start a fight or pick those lines that started it, it it all consequences of their own actions.
And sure, some snowflakes that were expecting railroading and plot armor from DM would certainly melt ... but sometimes that is for the best.

Yeah-no. There is a difference between "You guys should really not fight these guys, oh you did? They start with summoning five creatures each, still wanna fight them?" and
"You should go to this place? You did? Cool, fight. Oh, they win inititive, kill your fighter in the first round, sleep two of your other party members, and teleport to your rouge and beat the everloving snot out of him.

That is how 4/5ths of my fight with the patrol goes. Before I get a turn.

I don't know if it actually helps with initiative but the initiate combat button was bugged.

Here is the problem with you. There is only one person that tells you that you should go there and a few that tell you the opposite. And that one person acts hostile towards you 90% of the time.

As Zellin said ...

Actualy it is:
NPC 1: We should go there, you meaninless maggot, that should worship me for even providing you my opinion.
NPC 2: Screw that smug bastard, we should go anywhere else.

NPC 1: Let me just show you in few examples that i completely despite anything that isnt my kin.
NPC 2: I TOLD YOU screw her, and go anywhere else!

DM: Oh you go there? Okey ... uhm, so you see HUGE RED DRAGON that just burned bunch of people to death.
NPC 3: It WILL BE DANGEROUS to go anywhere closer to tht HUGE RED DRAGON that just burned bunch of people to death.
NPC 1: Nah, we are fine ... what do you mean why? Bcs i said so! And im perfect, so dont you dare doubt my word!

DM: Oh you go there anyway? Okey ... uhm, so you can talk to them ... wait you did WHAT?
*Combat*