Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides BG3 Party Movement Mechanic

As I said, the Chain Control Scheme has multiple parts. And, sadly, the Chain is bad all across.

The topic discussed in the fylimar - JandK - Drath Malorn - The Composer - mrfuji3 line of discussion is the "follow the leader" principle. I would distinguish things further.

• Party formation. The Chain has no/very little concept of strict party formation. All it has is a vague and imprecise "all characters in the Group follows the currently-selected character".
  
  This is bad. If your movement is interrupted by a conversation cutscene (e.g. you are ambushed by goblins), and you were leading your Group with a front-liner like Lae'zel, combat may start and you discover that Gale somehow got to the front line.
  
  
• The Chain applies the "follow the leader" principle constantly. Even when the player is not giving any move order.
  
  This is merely ridiculous when you are cycling through your characters to cast healing spells, buffs, etc, and the party shuffles around for no reason. It becomes really annoying when Group members converge on their own after a fight (and this is where Pathing comes into the picture).

The Chain Control Scheme also has other parts (and the post by GM4Him mostly discusses those). I'll distinguish the following aspects.

• Selections versus Groups. A Group is a locked Selection. The two concepts are different. Groups can be useful, but the Chain system only uses Groups, which is bad.
  
  In any Operating System, most softwares in general, and most video games in particular (especially CPRG and RTS), you can simply Select several files/objects/characters/units. If I have a "Selection" of the Characters {PC,Gale,Shadowheart}, they are in fact a Group. If I then I select Astarion to do something, and then I select Shadowheart and want to move her to where Astarion is, the Chain system will have PC and Gale follow along because they form a Group. Such a pain in the quality-of-life.
  
  In RTS games, it is often possible to add units to a Platoon (e.g. by pressing Shift+1). Then, selecting this Platoon selected all the units that are part of it. Though units remain individually selectable.
  
  In some softwares likes Inkscape (graphics software), it is possible to select objects, and lock this Selection into a Group, by simply doing Ctrl+G. Then, just like with BG3's Chain Scheme, selecting one object of the Group selects the whole Group. And doing another Ctrl+G unlocks the Group. Importantly, the software knows both concepts : Selections, the intuitive way to manipulate object that every computer user is familiar with, and Groups, which can improve quality-of-life in some cases. Larian's Chain Scheme doesn't.
  
  
• The player inputs required to manipulate Groups. Adding a character to a Group requires to drag-and-connect their portrait : this is fiddly, and it is more effort than Ctrl+Click. Removing a character from a Group requires to drag-away their portrait : this is sticky, and more effort than Ctrl+Click. The alternative is to do RightClick>Ungroup, which is two clicks and you have to really pay attention. This is a pure User Interface design problem, and it is very poor handled at the moment.

I'll add a couple more points, since I'm already well in, I might as well try to compile many issues in one place (I know, this is pretty useless, even for The Composer, since all of this has already been passed on to Larian long ago).

• Group commands. The Chain system is not capable of issuing the same command to a whole Selection or Group.
  
  As mentioned in the first point, even something as basic as Move is such a sad thing that it cannot be properly issued to a Group, which means no party formation other than "one character follows the Move command, the other characters follow the first character".
  
  Putting the whole Group in Stealth was initially not possible. Apparently, it is getting there ... very slowly.
  
  In Turn-Based Mode, when infiltrating a place, if I want to cross a wide open area, I can't issue Dash to the whole group. The only way is to cycle through character and issue the command to each of them.
  
  This is bad, but I have little hope to see much improvement here, because with Larian's Chain Control Scheme, the game simply does not (or perhaps cannot) handle a Group as a group.
  
  
• The characters do not Jump automatically when exploring around. If I'm running across a chasm on a bridge, I can't simply click on the other side to have my character(s) go there. I have to select Jump, then select the point I wanted my character to move to.
  
  
• Movement getting interrupted. After I issue a Move command, my character(s) will sometimes interrupt their movement even if I didn't give any other order.
  
  One regular instance is that, as my character moves, so does the camera (especially if I have it coupled to the character), and so does the cursor. If I happen to accidentally hover over an interactable object (e.g. a destructible barrel), my Move command is interrupted. This is really annoying.
  
  Also, following on the previous point, if I see a chasm ahead on the bridge, and want to prepare a Jump command to get on the other side when my character reaches the chasm, my character stops moving as soon as I select Jump, even though I haven't clicked on a destination and thus issued another command. This is an unnecessary slow-down.
  
  
• Lack of reactivity. If I press Space to activate Turn-Based Mode, the game will take often long and sometimes-precious seconds before acknowledging my input. This is bad when I'm trying to fight the bad Pathing.
  
  Also, when I issue a Move order to a character or Group, there's always a fraction of a second before the character(s) start moving. The movement system really does not feel reactive.

I'm well aware that not all those points relate to the Chain Scheme. As I said above, according to its the title, this thread is about the party movement mechanics. And (party or single-character) movement in BG3 is really subpar. Mostly due to the Chain, admittedly, but not solely.

Assuming for the now that the Chain system stays, I feel we need a toggle (located where the Group commands are).

1. Follow Leader Only
- The chained characters always follow the "leader" (character in position 1 of the chain), but move/act independantly if selected (i.e. the leader doesn't move if I select any other character and move them). Unchained characters do nothing if leader moves as is the case now.

2. Follow selected
- As is now, if I select any character within the chain and move them, they become the defacto leader at that moment and all chained characters follow.

3. Independent
- Chained group can still be given group commands (like Stealth), but no one follows anyone.

4. Unchain group
- as is now.

Even with that, I still want a left click drag and select option in case I want to quickly move 2 or 3 of the party (perhaps later more with companions and pets).

This system is well and truly the biggest flaw in the game right now and a massive impediment to its success. All the points have been made well enough for a long time, so I can only assume this hasn't been fixed for technical reasons.

It's a great shame, though.

I think it's all about multiplayer as to why it hasn't been fixed/why it exists.

If you play with 2 people, you can chain 1 companion to each and go your separate ways, covering more ground. I don't know how you'd implement such a thing without the chain system.

It's all about multiplayer, I think.

I doubt there's a single "technical reason" (i.e. iffy pathing on uneven terrain or what else) that a competent team couldn't find a solution around, especially if the game would benefit it so significantly.
It wouldn't even require new tech, just the retooling of some components that at a fundamental level are already available in the game.

The only possible explanation remaining is that Larian simply does NOT think our complaints in this area have any particular merit, so they area fully invested in the idea of keeping as it is, so they'd rather find convolute ways to make it palatable (i.e. more and more redundant and weirdly specific group commands that still don't solve the issues entirely).

As another user wrote almost two years ago in the first pages of this very same thread (but I can't be bothered to go and search for the exact quote) it feels like someone at Larian considers the chain system their own baby.
Some sort of personal achievement in UI design that they don't' want to get rid of, no matter what.


Thanks for your contribution to the thread, anyway.

Well, in the same way they did in other games?
It wouldn't really change that much.

You'd still need to assign "control" over secondary units beside the main characters.
And then each player would have two or more characters to control.

Just today I was discussing with few other people the possibility to introduce a new custom formation for characters through modding, because the default one absolutely fucking blows, especially if you mod the game to include a party of six:



This made me realize that there's ANOTHER glaring flaw in the party controls of BG3, which is how ABYSMAL it is to keep track of the position of any character relatively to the party itself. Who's in the back, who's front-liner, etc.


You can rearrange the order of portraits, but it's basically pointless, since...
- The way they position in the formation has no logical correlation to where in the order of portraits you put them (i.e. I put Gale on the bottom and he's still right behind my playable character in the formation).
- As soon as you ungroup/regroup for whatever reason, the order of portraits rearranges basically randomly (not exactly, as there IS a criterium about it - the one you are controlling when you regroup is dragged on the top, remixing the order - but still, not something you can have a direct control over).

So even in hypothetical scenario where I'd get my oh-so-desired mod to change the default formation into something I like more, it's clear that I will never be able to achieve this degree on control:

Yeah makes you miss those little touches like the Companions saying something when their portrait was promoted to the Leader position.

I wish they'd have made more of an effort to follow the BG2 UI organization and iconography. You know, Portraits on the right side of screen, tab menu on the left. With the selected Character's hotbar or Group commands/Party formations along the bottom of the screen.

The mini map in this game is basically a waste of space. It's nearly impossible to decipher what's going on with it. I also miss the Level Up sound, though that's not really related to party movement at all. Just wish it looked and felt more like BG.

Larian designed everything assuming that you will always have 4 players in the game. That's why the inventory is the way it is, too.

4 or whatever players have nothing to do with the issues with chaining and movement, which is what this thread is about. It's horrible with 4, as designed.

I've always disliked the DOS system. It feels clunky and it looks more than a little ridiculous. But, i doubt they'll change it, unfortunately.

Checking in on the forums after a couple months, I'm very disappointed (but not surprised) to see this hot mess is still in the game. Yikes. Larian, please...

@Tuco On a small positive note, and perhaps a naively hopeful one...

There is a Formation screen in DOS 2, which forced characters to rearrange their positions when combat started; so perhaps Larian is working on that whole concept in order to improve the positioning of characters both out of combat & when it starts. It might be added later or on 1.0, as the mechanic doesn't always work as you would expect. Sometimes it's decent, sometimes it just clumps all of your party together. If the system is here to stay, this band aid for the formations might arrive at a later date aswell.

However, this is just treating some symptoms, as summarized by Drath Malorn, rather than addressing the underwhelming mechanical capacity of the Toilet Chain.

I ended up talking about it in another thread, so I never updated the previous post here, but for the record I realized that if they borrowed the formation system used in Pathfinder WOTR they could solve several problems at once...



...Since it's a system that allows the player to choose BOTH the shape of the formation and which character exactly places where, which solves the problem with portraits mixing and re-mixing in total anarchy every time the toilet chain is involved.


By the way yes, I remember that a formation system was there in DOS 2. I still have painful memories of how inadequate and ineffective it was, too.
It's not a coincidence that people hardly paid it any attention and most don't even realize it's there.

I like your style to always speak on part of the whole humankind Tuco! Personally, I used this system to a great effect (Yes, you may make a personal comment about it). It allowed you to put your melee fighters up front or on the sides, and put your ranged characters on the back line. All in several different ways. What more do you need?

It was poorly implemented in the UI (hidden in the pause menu) and there was no tutorial about it, thats why it was overlooked by the community.

Zzzzzzz.


To be able to set up a formation that didn't spread across half of the visible area during real time exploration, for example.
I know, I know, it's a "nuance" that may be lost to people who think the toilet chain is perfectly fine as it is, but what can I do about it?

I captured 2 minutes of the game today for an upcoming video on my channel.
I just clicked ONCE to capture my characters while they were moving with a static camera. A perfectly random moment with random ladders.

I no longer have hopes that they will change the system, but what I saw is only the chain's fault and really... this is a huge thorn in the side of the game.
Characters slowing the game and totally breaking the formation because they don't know what to do with their bodies.

That's not something we should see in a AAA cRPG.
Just sayin'

A good thing to do would be filing a bug report through the form om their site while adding this footage and a save game file so the team could work on the pathing in this area.
"Or yell louder, this is fine too" (sorry I couldn't resist..)

I have to say, for someone who felt the urge to call out other users for "bad behavior" in his firs days on the forum based on a "first impression", you surely love to shitpost a lot.

That aside, did you really think that people who have been active on this forum since the first days of EA and compiled hundreds of detailed feedbacks and bug reports needed your advice about how to do it properly?

I guess the environment shapes a man, isn't it right, Tuco? I had a fine teacher!
Toxicity attracts toxicity, so does your endless "Larian can't handle a thing in this mess of a game and encourages stupid stupidity!" attitude attracts its counterpart of "lol why are you so serious do you know where are those scars from" type of shitposting. I feel ashamed for my part at least.. but can't resist the urge, sometimes! I'll try though!

But aside this demagogy, I gave advice because I truly think and know that it will make more for the game than posting here. I've filed several reports on serious bugs and minor issues through the form on their site and they always respond you in person on the issue . Not because I want to teach someone to do something, I assure you!

Upd: there are a lot of people out here that can express their opinion in a more weighted, non-provocative manner! it is much easier to adjust to their perspective than to something like your posts, no offense! I admire your dedication to the game development though, don't get me wrong! I always check your posts and agree with some suggestions