Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback My thoughts on reactions...

I mean, if Larian implemented it this way, sure. But since Smite is part of an attack (with an action cost) and isn't actually a reaction, theoretically they wouldn't.

And even if they did, you'd still be limited by the # of spell slots. I suppose the most likely way Larian would implement is: you'd be able to stack smite multiple times on the same attack, but it wouldn't allow *extra* attacks. Is that what you meant?

yes, but i don't want it implemented like this. just a proper reaction system

Meh. Just remove counterspell from the game. Problem solved.


tl:dr

As I thought and hinted at in my first response. So much for acceptance. Above statement from you Jandk, is like me saying, go find an arpg to play instead, it seems to be more your style. problem solved.

I don't know what an arpg is. All these silly labels. Youth today.

Action roleplaying game.

And forgive me if I'm assuming too much but the reason I didn't find your thread serious from the beginning is because I get the impression that you want the opposite of what people request with an enhanced reaction system, making it hard for you to really "accept" their wishes.

We request an improved reaction system because we want more tactical depth where as I get the impression you want less tactical gameplay and more fast oriented action. Am I wrong in this assumption?

That's very stupid lol.

Yes, you are wrong in that assumption.

I enjoy the tactical nature of the game. I have well over a thousand hours into this game so far. And if it weren't turn based, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

But I do think all of this reaction stuff is a major misstep. And I'm not alone in that feeling.

Things I'm mostly okay with:

1. Ready versus attack. If someone is about to attack you, you get to act before their attack. Simple. If no one tries to attack you during the round, you basically abandoned your action.

2. Contingency spells. You cast a spell based on a reasonable contingency. Hellish Rebuke, for example. The contingency being that if you're attacked, it goes off. None of this nonsense about picking and choosing when it goes off. It just does because it triggers when someone attacks, not when you suddenly will it to in whatever moment you choose.

3. Ready versus spell. Just like a "ready versus attack" option above. If someone is about to cast a spell, you get to act before their spell to attempt a counterspell. But that's your action, not a reaction.

*

As for things like Inspiration: I feel like people are way too precious and spoiled about how they want it to work. Just let it inspire the next "blah" thing and move on. If that's too weak, then let it inspire the next three "blah" things. Whatever, just move on. It's not going to break the game to let it inspire your next attack *and* your next saving throw *and* your next whatever... to make up for you not being able to choose when and where it goes off.

Not to mention, *choosing* when you're inspired is a little bit ridiculous. It's painfully meta.

Can you articulate why?

Don't see why he should considering you basically tl;dr'd half the people who actually gave a serious response.

Ya'll. This thread ain't worth it, it's just a super long winded way of saying 'I don't like reactions and no one is going to convince me otherwise, and I thought highly enough of myself to make a thread vaguely trying to invite discussion even though I'm not actually interested in said discussion'. Just leave the dude alone.

The problem with reactions is the necessary decision making can be both difficult and unrewarding. Knowing a turn in advance what will be relevant and how to counteract it isn’t easy and pre-planning is often undermined by changing circumstances.

Unlimited reactions means changing circumstances matter less. It achieves this by removing the decision altogether rather than adressing pain points. This gives players less to do and less to care about. If that’s what you like, fine, but I was really hoping decisions in BG3 could be both plentiful and meaningful.

In conclusion, a quick exploit: unlimited reactions effectively turn Cutting Words into an aura effect with the worst UI in the world. Have fun clicking thirty times a turn to target everyone within 60 feet.

Can someone explain to me why reactions are so critical to 5e gameplay? It seems to play fine without them, and I don't remember reactions in BG1+2 (but I might not have fully utilized everything.) It just seems like what people are describing might slow combat down even more (yikes) and make the game all choppy. Why are reactions so essential (genuine question, not sarcastic belittling)?

Real time with pause in BG1/2 meant you could change your plan on a dime if something unexpected happened. BG3 offers no such option other than through reactions, and only barely so.

I guess it’s not essential, but adapting to new threats is fun. Reactions (done well) provide that “oh no… but wait!” game sequence which is very rewarding.

A lot of classes expect Reactions to work as per the PnP 5ed Base Rules (like the Paladin and Bard, among others). Not having Reactions working, even in a rudimentary state, will reflect poorly upon these classes. It also takes away from the game itself, being presented as a 5ed D&D game but yet don't follow one of the major systems.

I think I am speaking for many people here, and not just for myself, that most individuals want Reactions working in some way that has some control and is acceptable in some way. Even if we don't get 100% control, like Solasta with prompts, but something that at least uses the Reactions when they make sense.

I advocate for a middle ground in that Reactions are can either be turned on/off at any time (even during pausing), allowing the player to pause the game to turn on/off any Reaction, at any time and for any PC/NPC they control.

It's a concept that exists in DnD 5E, not sure if it was in earlier editions (as in, I'm close to 100% sure the concept didn't exist in 3E or earlier, and I don't know jack squat about 4E, but I suspect almost everyone here doesn't know anything about that either).

Reactions are basically a class of abilities and spells that allow you to perform some kind of action in response to something an enemy is doing during their turn. You only get one reaction per turn, just like you only get one bonus action per turn. Right now in BG3, the most common reaction you can use are the Attacks of Opportunity. Most other reactions are either not yet implemented at all, or changed entirely. IIRC the only other reactions implemented in BG3 right now consist of the following:

- Hellish Rebuke: 2d10 fire damage in retaliation to an enemy attack. Normally you can choose whether to use this or not, but in BG3 you pre-cast it and it's automatically discharged against the first enemy that attacks you.
- Bardic Inspiration/Combat Inspiration: The Bard grants another party member a 1d6 bonus to either attack rolls, saving throws, damage rolls, or AC (the latter two are Combat Inspiration only). You can only pick one effect per Inspiration use. Normally the party member gets complete control over when they want to use the die in applicable situations, but in BG3, the die is automatically discharged in the first applicable situation. Using it for saving throws/AC is currently toggled off by default, meaning if you intend to use it for defensive purposes, it won't help against anything acting in between the Bard and the party member in the initiative order.
- Cutting Words: In the simplest terms, it's basically the Bard using a reverse version of the above against an enemy. Normally, it's the Bard doing an OBJECTION in reaction to something an enemy is doing, with a single penalty related to whatever that enemy was doing. Right now in BG3, it's something that the Bard pre-casts on an enemy, and all of the possible penalties affect that enemy until the start of the Bard's next turn.

Other examples of lower level reactions currently not in BG3 (as in ones you would have access to by level 4 among the currently released classes):

- Shield: A level 1 spell that grants the caster +5 AC against an incoming attack, with the AC boost persisting until the start of the caster's upcoming turn.
- Protection fighting style: An option for Fighters and Paladins wielding shields. If a party member standing next to them is being targeted by an attack, and the character with this ability is currently wielding a shield, they can react to impose disadvantage on the incoming attack (think of it as the shield wielder trying to block the attack directed at their ally).
- Ready Actions: Instead of using any main action attack, ability, or spell, a character has the option to hold their action until the condition to discharge the action is met. The simplest example is if Lae'zel is unable to reach anything to smack with a melee attack during her turn, so you can have her ready a swing for the first enemy that comes within melee range during their turn. Right now in BG3, you're usually either just going to end turn without doing anything or use some kind of projectile attack instead, which Lae'zel isn't nearly as strong in.

You also normally get to control when you want to use an attack of opportunity, instead of immediately using it against the first enemy that leaves your zone of control if you are wielding a melee weapon. But again, it is worth noting that you only get one reaction per turn, so a Wizard probably wouldn't want to use an opportunity attack if they may want to save it for an emergency Shield instead.

Right now, BG3's handling of the reaction system is to either ignore/not implement many of the abilities utilizing that concept, automate them to immediately use them against the first thing that can trigger the reaction, or change it into something that's pre-cast instead. It's also worth noting that enemies should be able to use reactions against you as well, so properly implementing them won't mean that the game will get easier.

It's really not an exaggeration to say that omission of a proper reaction system is basically missing 1/3rd of the combat system, and it consists of the majority of defensive options that exist in the overall 5E system too. Right now, it's not that much of a major thing, but the long term implications for the overall balance are rather dire.

You are the only person I "tl:dr'd", not half by any measure. And I did that to your response because I appreciate brevity over walls of eye-bleeding text.

That said, can we please stay on topic instead of pretending to be a mind reader? Thank you.

I'm going to add further to what I've already said in my previous post, there is a rather subtle effect that the lack of proper reactions has on character building. Builds at the moment are very individualistic. Since defensive tactics are currently rather lacking, your primary sense of progression is generally in hyper investment of offense instead, and there's not a whole lot to consider in that department for teamwork purposes right now, beyond 'gang up on something and hit them as hard as you can'. Maybe higher level spells and abilities might cover for this, but I don't see this shifting to any meaningful degree without at least ready actions being implemented.

For example, take this video of a Solasta fight that I recorded over a year ago, back when the game used to be in Early Access. Effective use of reactions basically enabled me to perform a lot of counters during the enemy turn, to the point where my party was reacting during enemy turns almost as much as they were acting during their own turns. The major tactic I utilized to end the fight was to have the whole party back off out of the darkness cloud to lure the boss into a wall of readied attacks and my own Spirit Guardians aura, a concept that currently doesn't exist in BG3 due to the lack of ready actions.

(Also treat it as a preview of how much Shadowheart is going to wreck everything within breathing distance once she gains access to the Spirit Guardians spell - though I am curious to see how that spell would look like for her, since the appearance of the spell actually changes depending on your alignment. Could be a plot point with profound impact if you see that spell changing during the course of the game.)


Also, consider this concept: Ever notice how healing spells in BG3 feel a bit weak? That's because DnD is a system that places greater importance on preventing damage than restoring it. What do reactions do? They generally revolve around prevention and countering. The concept of reactions is one of the crucial pillars that ties the balance together.

Not sure if this possible in BG3 (yet), but in PnP rogues can make a sneak attack during an AoO since AoOs happen during the enemy's turn. So effectively they gain two opportunities for a sneak attack, once on their own turn and once on the enemy's.

Its certainly interesting idea ...
We could aswell get infinite spellslots, and infinite actions, bcs this whole turn thing is boring and tedious ... would be much better if we would just send 5000Fireballs at our enemies at start of every combat and then just watch how it goes.

Nah, sry couldnt resist ... its a bad idea, sory. :-/

If the rule in DnD was that you got an opportunity attack on every character that moved past you in combat, and then BG3 only allowed you to get one opportunity attack, people would be screaming. They'd be saying how the BG3 system was broken and dumb for only allowing one opportunity attack.

People are comfortable with what they know. It's often a shortcut to actually thinking.

There's nothing bad about the idea of allowing multiple opportunity attacks in one round. It's not even remotely comparable to endless actions. Clearly, only so many opportunity attacks can happen.

And there's nothing bad about the idea of allowing multiple contingency spells to go off in a round either, assuming they were prepared properly ahead of time. And assuming the triggers are reasonable enough. Like, goes off when attacked. Not: goes off whenever player decides because it's convenient.

The problem--the "bad idea" if you will--is creating a system where every player is so precious that they get to decide which action the bard inspired them on that one time long ago when the bard inspired them. "Hmm. I rolled bad. I guess I'm gonna say that I'm now conveniently inspired from that bard who inspired me hours ago."