Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Why wisdom?

I'm talking about the [Illithid, Wisdom] rolls in dialogue.

Not all this junk you're bringing up that doesn't need a roll. I accept that psionics can do a multitude of different things. That has zero to do with what stat's being rolled in the dialogue choices.

I feel like I'm pulling teeth trying to get across the most basic concept here. Illithids use the Int ability for their powers. The dialogue roll claims it's an illithid power, but uses a wisdom roll. Maybe that roll should be Int instead.

Maybe it should Jandk, but as Gm4him said, it doesn't have to since these tadpoles are not normal. He understood your point, no point in pulling teeth and trying to imply he and others can't understand basic concepts.

Edit: Would you find it more acceptable if the roll was called Netherese instead?

1. I'm not sure he did. Nor am I sure how you would know. I'm also not convinced that unsolicited advice was helpful.

2. Calling it Netherese would... call into question a lot of things. If the powers are the result of the Netherese magic holding the tadpole in stasis and not stemming from the tadpole itself, it makes me wonder why the tadpole is necessary in the first place. But that aside, as it's not called Netherese, and rather it *is* called [Illithid], I think the point stands that it should probably be an Int roll instead.

Ok. Sorry for the "advice". Stay agitated then.

Personally I don't care what it's called or which ability it uses since I don't think it should be a roll anyway since it seems that with a DC of 1, we're meant to always succeed on them.

Not always.

A natural one will fail, of course.

But aside from that, there are some rolls that have higher DCs. Digging into any of your companion's minds, for example. Those rolls all have higher target numbers. Interestingly enough though, those rolls only say [Wisdom] in the dialogue choice options, neglecting to mention the [Illithid] portion.

I understood fully. No need for insults. My point is that these aren't normal mind flayer tadpoles. They allow the PCs to do different things based on their class, so my point was that it isn't a far cry to have them manifest their psionics in different ways too. And I was also thinking about balance. Each character then has an equal opportunity to tap into illilthid powers instead of Wisdom or Intelligence classes like clerics or wizards being superior illithid PCs.

But whatever. I don't really care that much, and you made an interesting topic no longer enjoyable.

BTW. Natural 1 is only supposed to fail in combat. Isn't that how BG3 plays too? You can't fail a skill check DC 1, right?

It's a stew-pid gimmick that is going to help this game age poorly.

Idk, but I think Absolut should definitely affect your wisdom, especially after the Druid Grove arc. :P

Edit: Come to think of it, there should be a BG3 promotion with Absolut vodka called Absolute
Edit 2: In an Illithid-inspired bottle
Edit 3: Absolut Absolute

If you understand, why do you keep going on about powers that don't require rolls.

1. The dialogue choices require a Wisdom roll for something that's literally referred to as an "Illithid" power.
2. I say an Intelligence roll would make more sense.
3. Do you agree that an Intelligence roll would make more sense than a Wisdom roll? Yes or no?



It goes both ways, of course.

But just to point out, me saying that I didn't think you understood was my way of trying to clarify and make sure we were on the same page. Because I didn't understand your reply in context to the topic.

This, however, is just you accusing me of ruining your experience. I don't say that to you with every repeated wall of text that gets posted. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here; I'm simply trying to talk about whether or not the developers mistakenly used Wisdom instead of Intelligence.


No, that's not how it plays in BG3. You can fail a skill check with a DC of 1.

This - all of this - detracts from their mystique.

J. I said , "and you made an interesting topic no longer enjoyable," because we went from discussing things to you defending your position, insulting my intelligence and even snapping at Private Raccoon for sharing her opinion on things. So, yes. It became no longer enjoyable very fast. It's just no fun when someone insults you and others... Multiple times.

So fine. Make the stupid mind flayer tadpole powers Intelligence rolls. Whatever. It's fine. I hardly ever use them anyway. I'm seriously sorry. I'll go back to ignoring you as you requested before. I only unignored you because you seemed to have unignored me.

I just went through all the posts in the topic and I'm really, really confused how we went from discussing the relative merits of different stat incorporation into the Illithid Persuasion mechanic to... what the discussion has become. I am also a little sad how quickly it got that way between people who all independently have great ideas on this forum and usually make constructive contributions to the improvement of the game. I'm not here to tone police or butt-in to say my piece, but I think all of you have so much to offer, and the derailing of the topic isn't like any of you.
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Anyway, on to the topic:
Given the Illithids in general use intelligence for rolls, it does make sense to make the Illithid powers use intelligence. On the other hand, based on the many points from the other side of the argument, I don't think such a change is necessary, speaking in the modal sense of the term ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic ). It would be an improvement in the way of consistency, of this I have no doubt; however, I think there are many arguments that would help us reason through the notion that it wouldn't be intelligence. Many of the arguments are stated in earlier posts, so I won't go through them. Ultimately, consistency is nice, but it is really up to the discretion of the developers, given they may have in-world, or mechanical, or story-based reasons to set it up otherwise.

I believe the Illithid persuasion mechanic uses Wisdom instead of Intellect, because in skillchecks, wisdom is the ability that reflects one's ability to read body language, intent, understand another's feelings etc, all relevant to being persuasive in dialogue. Whether you're intellectual or not is irrelevant to how wisdom works in D&D, and dialogue =/= combat. Being wise as we know it in human society does not reflect the word "Wisdom" that may have confusing connotations in D&D mechanics.

A really dumb person can understand your body language in D&D, because their intelligence is a different stat to wisdom. Since the tadpole is part of the host's brain and tampering with their emotions (see the person you dream of at night as an example, trying to manipulate you and welcome them into your acceptance), wisdom makes more sense. It's not a magic spell, but an enhanced ability to manipulate someone else, a social skill. (Again, caster spell modifier being irrelevant)

Well, social skills are usually based on charisma.

Could we say for example:
- use powers to operate illithid device = int
- use power to gain understanding of something or learn the intentions of someone = wis
- use powers to manipulate the behaviour of someone = cha
- causing a physical effect is based on a physical stat and so on

So the tadpole gives you powers.
But you chose to use these powers (or not using them) with your own body and mind.
So the stat used depends on the exact effect you want to achieve with those powers.

It's quite simple. JandK thinks in dialogue that Illithid Powers should be based on Intelligence modifier rather than Wisdom. I was saying that regardless of whether it's Wisdom or Intelligence, this caters the Illithid Powers more towards certain classes/types of characters. Intelligence = Wizards and Wisdom = Clerics. Very generally speaking, of course. So, Fighters, Rogues, Sorcerers, Warlocks... they get the shaft - I mean, IF you want to be nice and friendly with the tadpoles in your heads.

So, I was suggesting that maybe the tadpoles manifest themselves differently with each class - similar to how they manifest differently with each class with the Illithid Powers like how Wizards reflect things, and Rogues use Inky Darkness or whatever it's called. My point was that if they manifest differently OUTSIDE of dialogue, why not say they manifest differently IN dialogue? These are unusual mind flayer parasites tampered with by Shadow Magic. Although typical mind flayers may use Intelligence, why not have it so that these particular, unusual tadpoles use whatever ability score is strongest for each individual character? I didn't think this was that far of a stretch.

In that way, a Fighter with 18 Strength can somehow use their Strength bonus to use Illithid Powers in dialogue. It's admittedly weird, but everything with these tadpoles is weird. Larian could say, "The target of the Illithid Power feels the overwhelming strength of the character as it presses upon the will of the target, tearing through their typical defenses and breaking into their thoughts." Or, for the 18 Dexterity Rogue, "The target of the Illithid Power feels the slippery, crafty maneuvers of the character as it dances around the defenses, slipping past every attempt of the target to block them from their thoughts." Or the Cleric with 18 Wisdom, "The target tries to prevent the character from pressing into their thoughts, but the character wisely predicts the target's best attempts to stop them, and simply outmaneuvers them." Or whatever.

It was just a thought. I thought it was kinda clever, and I considered it a nice shout out to Larian's DOS 2 game where they have certain Persuasion types like Persuade Strength, Persuade Wits, Persuade Finesse depending on your particular character's focus. Although those types of Persuade don't work with typical 5e skills, I thought with these weird and unusual tadpoles, it might make some sense - especially since each class has some weird and unusual tadpole powers outside of dialogue. In other words, the tadpoles manifest themselves differently with each class outside of dialogue, so why not manifest differently with each class in dialogue?

But whatever. Again. It was just an idea. I really don't care that much because, frankly, I don't use the tadpole powers that much, and I'll probably only ever use them to metagame and see what it's like. After all, even with my evil playthrough, I certainly didn't feel like it was intelligent in any way to use the tadpoles. This isn't the Dark Side of the Force here. You pretty much can figure out that if you use them, they'll turn you into SOMETHING quicker, especially when you use them and the signs start to manifest. Yeah. Seems pretty much like only a fool would use them, even if the character is evil. But maybe that's just me.

Hah! So, in that regard, Wisdom is a stupid ability to use for the powers. After all, you aren't very wise if you use the tadpole powers. Are you?

I don't think that using the tadpole should require any physical stats. Nothing you do with it involves physical effort - physical strength, nimbleness, or heartiness.

Wisdom makes sense as you're feeling your way through using the tadpole, and often using it to gain insights into other's brains (connecting your tadpole to theirs mentally).
Charisma could make sense as you're forcing your will onto either your tadpole or onto the target's tadpole, using that connection overwhelming the target's mental defenses with your force of personality.
Intelligence could make sense for very limited checks like operating an ilithid device that operates on machine logic.