I've honestly come to terms with it. It won't be a game-breaker without Day/Night especially since after the initial area you'll be traveling to:
Shadow Cursed Land. No sun Moonrise Towers. Likely no sun. Probably more dark dungeons. No sun. Baldur's Gate eventually and most likely, which will probably be besieged with no sun.
Yeah. We're talking a lot of work for them to do for not a big part of the game, most likely, maybe, I'm assuming, and guessing, because I really know nothing.😌
I don't think a "day/night cycle" is a good qualifier on whether the game will be good or not anyway.
And would you honestly say that anybody do?
Call me sceptical but this seems like regular "i will ignore everything and call this absolute trash hoping that will give me what i want" situation... Its quite common theese days around internet.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
I've honestly come to terms with it. It won't be a game-breaker without Day/Night especially since after the initial area you'll be traveling to:
Shadow Cursed Land. No sun Moonrise Towers. Likely no sun. Probably more dark dungeons. No sun. Baldur's Gate eventually and most likely, which will probably be besieged with no sun.
Yeah. We're talking a lot of work for them to do for not a big part of the game, most likely, maybe, I'm assuming, and guessing, because I really know nothing.😌
Yeah not a big part of the game. I even don't understand why most games (all AAA) waste so much ressources in D/N cycle while you can just let the player play in the sun for 20 hours before let him play for 20 hours i n the shadow. This trick works well in DoS, the only game I've ever played.
You can also define that it's always rainy on the right on a pixel line and sunny on the left ! Another nice trick to cheat with the player ! It is so incredible that no one noticed anything while playing !
I've honestly come to terms with it. It won't be a game-breaker without Day/Night especially since after the initial area you'll be traveling to:
Shadow Cursed Land. No sun Moonrise Towers. Likely no sun. Probably more dark dungeons. No sun. Baldur's Gate eventually and most likely, which will probably be besieged with no sun.
Yeah. We're talking a lot of work for them to do for not a big part of the game, most likely, maybe, I'm assuming, and guessing, because I really know nothing.😌
Yeah not a big part of the game. I even don't understand why most games (all AAA) waste so much ressources in D/N cycle while you can just let the player play in the sun for 20 hours before let him play for 20 hours i n the shadow. This trick works well in DoS, the only game I've ever played.
You can also define that it's always rainy on the right on a pixel line and sunny on the left ! Another nice trick to cheat with the player ! It is so incredible that no one noticed anything while playing !
Meh. I didn't say I LIKED it. I've just come to terms with it. I mean, LOTS of OLD games have no day or night. Like the old BG games for console. 😌
I really disagree that it is a waste of resources - the thing is that to make day/night cycles shine the game needs features that synergize with it: large-scale free-form exploration is usually one (think Morrowind), and NPC schedules are another (think Ultima, Gothic or Skyrim). All of those games would lose a lot of their appeal if they were restricted to cheap tricks like static night/day boundaries. The same is true to a lesser extent for the original Baldur's Gate: arriving in the dark after a long journey & potentially having to contend with thieves and vampires added to the game experience.
For a game like Mass Effect where exploration exists but is restricted to specific zones and times day/night cycles aren't important - in fact, making sure that the time in game fits the story pacing is more important, especially with the focus the game has on cinematic dialogue and in-game cutscenes. That's a game which would not be improved by adding them. Both the games above and Mass Effect are good games.
You can also see an interesting tension in BG 2 which relies a lot more on pre-scripted story scenes than BG 1 where they had to resort to cheap tricks like forcing the game to Nighttime when returning to confront Bodhi after exiting the Underdark - though this specific example could have been easily solved by just moving the kidnap scene to when you enter the crypt.
But this nevertheless feeds into a dissatisfaction I have with BG 3 - I think it should be more like the first category of games, especially since Larian mentioned Ultima 7 as a game to take inspiration from. I think the proper way forward for the franchise would have been to build upon those kind of features: more exploration and an even more living world with NPC schedules, instead of moving so much into the cutscene-driven story direction instead.
So I agree that Baldur's Gate 3 would not profit much from day/night cycles, but at the same time this doesn't make me any happier since I think it's just due to them moving into the wrong direction in other aspects as well.
Final Edit: I think it is really weird to say I don't understand why all those AAA titles did it. BTW I only ever played this one game, which did not have it. Don't you feel you should have tried out some of those games to understand what it brings to the table?
I really disagree that it is a waste of resources - the thing is that to make day/night cycles shine the game needs features that synergize with it: large-scale free-form exploration is usually one (think Morrowind), and NPC schedules are another (think Ultima, Gothic or Skyrim). All of those games would lose a lot of their appeal if they were restricted to cheap tricks like static night/day boundaries. The same is true to a lesser extent for the original Baldur's Gate: arriving in the dark after a long journey & potentially having to contend with thieves and vampires added to the game experience.
For a game like Mass Effect where exploration exists but is restricted to specific zones and times day/night cycles aren't important - in fact, making sure that the time in game fits the story pacing is more important, especially with the focus the game has on cinematic dialogue and in-game cutscenes. That's a game which would not be improved by adding them. Both the games above and Mass Effect are good games.
You can also see an interesting tension in BG 2 which relies a lot more on pre-scripted story scenes than BG 1 where they had to resort to cheap tricks like forcing the game to Nighttime when returning to confront Bodhi after exiting the Underdark - though this specific example could have been easily solved by just moving the kidnap scene to when you enter the crypt.
But this nevertheless feeds into a dissatisfaction I have with BG 3 - I think it should be more like the first category of games, especially since Larian mentioned Ultima 7 as a game to take inspiration from. I think the proper way forward for the franchise would have been to build upon those kind of features: more exploration and an even more living world with NPC schedules, instead of moving so much into the cutscene-driven story direction instead.
So I agree that Baldur's Gate 3 would not profit much from day/night cycles, but at the same time this doesn't make me any happier since I think it's just due to them moving into the wrong direction in other aspects as well.
Final Edit: I think it is really weird to say I don't understand why all those AAA titles did it. BTW I only ever played this one game, which did not have it. Don't you feel you should have tried out some of those games to understand what it brings to the table?
If you are referring to Maximuus' post, I'm 99% sure ge was just being sarcastic.
I do feel like it's such a waste of opportunity to not have Day/Night cycle when you actually went through the trouble to input mechanics that interact with it - i.e. stealth, stealing, etc.
I.e. even just in the EA, the way certain quests play out can be completely altered and freshened via interactions with the day/night cycle. Imagine infiltrating the goblin camp at night completely in stealth. Or stealing the idol while the Druids are sleeping.
I do feel like it's such a waste of opportunity to not have Day/Night cycle when you actually went through the trouble to input mechanics that interact with it - i.e. stealth, stealing, etc.
I.e. even just in the EA, the way certain quests play out can be completely altered and freshened via interactions with the day/night cycle. Imagine infiltrating the goblin camp at night completely in stealth. Or stealing the idol while the Druids are sleeping.
Ugh. Don't get me going again. I'm trying to live without Day/Night here. I'm trying to settle and accept subpar.
I do feel like it's such a waste of opportunity to not have Day/Night cycle when you actually went through the trouble to input mechanics that interact with it - i.e. stealth, stealing, etc.
I.e. even just in the EA, the way certain quests play out can be completely altered and freshened via interactions with the day/night cycle. Imagine infiltrating the goblin camp at night completely in stealth. Or stealing the idol while the Druids are sleeping.
Ugh. Don't get me going again. I'm trying to live without Day/Night here. I'm trying to settle and accept subpar.
Pssst, what if Larian doensn't say anything because they are implementing it but have to make so many changes to the engine they keep quiet for now? Keep hoping. Keep suffering. Until the release.
Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
This was brought up in different topic, but i didnt want to continue there, since that was not its purpose. Still there is something i would like to try understand, if anyone will have energy to help me:
During the original Divinity: Original Sin crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter, the very last stretch goal mentioned a day and night cycle, NPC schedules and weather systems. All of these could have impacted NPCs, monsters and magic. Do you still discuss the possibility of making a truly simulated game world at some point in the future?
Adam: I do in my own head constantly. I think it's a very different game. One of my favorite games of all time is Ultima Seven and it was the first game that I played that had proper NPC behaviors. You could wait for someone to go to the pub and then you could rob their shop. I love stuff like that, but a game that's built like that does very different things. We are very, very story focused as well and there's things that you lose. Also: multiplayer. We're a multiplayer game and day-night cycles in multiplayer becomes incredibly complicated. We're doing so many really complex things already that we know are going to be really good that, on top of that, it wouldn't fit this game.
I love simulated worlds and we have a lot of that stuff in there. We don't do the day-night cycle but we do the things where things in the world happen because you caused them to happen and they can happen off-screen. So, there are things happening off-screen. The world isn't just what you see on your screen. There are events that happen and things that will, because of the choices you've made, things will happen elsewhere. Those are real, those are systemic. Our systems are running in the background the whole time. There are incredibly deep systems. Some of them don't make sense for this game, but yeah, we think about it and we've talked about it.
So my question is this: Is that just me, or is "day-night cycles in multiplayer becomes incredibly complicated." lamest possible excuse since BioWare stated that animations in Mass Effect: Andromeda sucks, bcs there is too many of them and it would be lot of work to make them properly? O_o I mean ... I dont even know how to say this in different words. That statement just seems wrong on so many levels, i dont even know how anybody could say it with straight face. O_o
Ok, i try to ask little friendlier. Can anyone try to explain me at least one (yes i want so many of them) example of how does multiplayer have anything to do with day/night system, please? Bcs i just cant find any ... I mean, probably there could be problem with turn-based mode ... unless it affects whole map > boom problem solved. But beyond that?
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
So my question is this: Is that just me, or is "day-night cycles in multiplayer becomes incredibly complicated." lamest possible excuse since BioWare stated that animations in Mass Effect: Andromeda sucks, bcs there is too many of them and it would be lot of work to make them properly? O_o I mean ... I dont even know how to say this in different words. That statement just seems wrong on so many levels, i dont even know how anybody could say it with straight face. O_o
Ok, i try to ask little friendlier. Can anyone try to explain me at least one (yes i want so many of them) example of how does multiplayer have anything to do with day/night system, please? Bcs i just cant find any ... I mean, probably there could be problem with turn-based mode ... unless it affects whole map > boom problem solved. But beyond that?
Adding a day/night system means you have A LOT of variables to account for. You would have to add complex behaviors to otherwise pretty mundanes scenarios. Imagine being in a big town having to sync about 50 npcs in real time to make them behave logically to the current time with multiplayer in mind. This would technically be doable, but the scope creep would be insane and we aren't even sure the underlying engine can handle that much. I would too like for every games to be as deep as Dwarf Fortress, but the cost vastly outweigh the benefit there.
I mean ... Okey you have 50 NPCs ... and they have to, if we keep it as simple as possible, go to sleep in certain time and wake up in certain time ... everything else is optional. I mean, Skyrim have just this and nobody i know about ever complained that NPCs dont regulary to to eat, s*it, just walk around the town, or f*ck each other.
So i perfectly understand that when you have this much NPCs, you need to program their behavior, that makes perfect sense ... and i also understand that takes some power.
But where comes that multiplayer in that? I mean, if you have town of 50NPCs ... you have town of 50NPCs for 1, 2, 3 or 4 players ... i dont see any change. Unless you wanted to point out that every single player could observe different group of NPCs ... and therefore the game would need to track their positions simultaneously for whole map. O_o Wich the game allready does, but its not so horrible, since most of them is stationary. Yes?
That would make sense ...
Except in this very topic was also mentioned that some people really just want option to roam this world during the night, aka ... "stationary time with two possible settings" would be perfectly acceptable. And voila! You have day/night while you dont need to wory about 50NPCs behaviour. :-/
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Adding a day/night system means you have A LOT of variables to account for. You would have to add complex behaviors to otherwise pretty mundanes scenarios. Imagine being in a big town having to sync about 50 npcs in real time to make them behave logically to the current time with multiplayer in mind. This would technically be doable, but the scope creep would be insane and we aren't even sure the underlying engine can handle that much. I would too like for every games to be as deep as Dwarf Fortress, but the cost vastly outweigh the benefit there.
What you're actually talking about is "adding complex, realistic schedules for all NPCs that depend on constantly passing time of day." However, having such NPC schedules is not a requirement for implementing a Day/Night system. A very simple Day/Night system is two have two states - day and night - which change instantly (likely during a loading screen). Certain NPCs disappear during night time, and certain NPCs only appear during night. Or as @Rag suggested above, don't even bother changing NPC schedules.
@Rag, the multiplayer part *potentially* comes into play when you consider that some players can be in TB mode while some players aren't, so NPCs & times for different locations could get off-sync with each other. From Larian's response, it seems like they're not willing to consider a imperfect system of time passage, and thus are ignoring the countless of simpler solutions like: - tie time passage to a the host of the game - if at least one person is currently in TB mode, have time pass according to that slower schedule - don't use constant time passage, but instead have discrete day/night(/afternoon?) states - etc Perfect is the enemy of the good.
I mean ... Okey you have 50 NPCs ... and they have to, if we keep it as simple as possible, go to sleep in certain time and wake up in certain time ... everything else is optional. I mean, Skyrim have just this and nobody i know about ever complained that NPCs dont regulary to to eat, s*it, just walk around the town, or f*ck each other.
So i perfectly understand that when you have this much NPCs, you need to program their behavior, that makes perfect sense ... and i also understand that takes some power.
But where comes that multiplayer in that? I mean, if you have town of 50NPCs ... you have town of 50NPCs for 1, 2, 3 or 4 players ... i dont see any change. Unless you wanted to point out that every single player could observe different group of NPCs ... and therefore the game would need to track their positions simultaneously for whole map. O_o Wich the game allready does, but its not so horrible, since most of them is stationary. Yes?
That would make sense ...
Except in this very topic was also mentioned that some people really just want option to roam this world during the night, aka ... "stationary time with two possible settings" would be perfectly acceptable. And voila! You have day/night while you dont need to wory about 50NPCs behaviour. :-/
Development is hard, best answer I have is this XKCD comic.
If they had NPCs going to sleep in this game’s predecessor over 20 years ago then I’m genuinely confused why it should be such a task now?
Personally I don’t require complicated NPC schedules, just some semblance of the passing of the day, so the world feels alive. Larian seems to be the only studio who struggles to implement D/N cycles in their CRPGs so I have to ask why?
Small edit: My post is regarding the engine part and why that is an issue. Regarding how multiplayer comes into play as a problem? Well I can't say without seeing the source code but that's just one more reason proving my point below: Duct tape in the code of an application is just a bad idea. ^^
Edit 2: BG2 didn't weight dozens and dozens of GB.The level of complexity for games reached a level where you can't simply add or remove some very specific elements that easily.
@Ragnar and @Etruscan -> When you don't understand why something seemingly simple is not done it's usually about money. And what Larian is saying is day and night cycle is an issue on engine level. It's a lot of work for not much to show(Not much , as in for the game to be able to switch between day and night and that's it. Every single mechanic built around for immersion, like npcs doing things etc is a seperate subject.That could be created if the engine allowed a day and night cycle. But it doesn't. ). So we are essentially screwed unless they didn't say anything and actually rebuilt this engine to be able to handle it.
To give you an example of how defining for a project is an issue on engine level: BG2 was a real time with pause game while being based on D&d. Back then it caused an " outrage" ( a small outrage, cause gaming community 20 years ago was insanely small compared to what it is now). Why would you make a RTwP instead of a turn based game? It makes no sense?
Weeeelll, Bioware received an RTS game engine. It was supposed to be heavilly modified to accomodate a Turn based system but they abandonned that idea and ended up with a fake simulation where every 8 seconds a " turn " elapsed and characters attacked. You could move live without any limitations or turns defining your movement.
Why botter modifying an RTS engine , to make it look like a turn based game engine instead of just making a simple turn based system? Well that same engine does everything else for you. Like literally everything. It renders the map, it has tools for the AI to work properly, to create new maps for the game. You need one to create the game in reasonable amount of time. It's a gigantic piece of dev tools.
In case of BG3 Larian potentially could put some fake light system change ( fake, as in, no system would be based on it. It would work seperately from everything else and serve only the purpose of changing ambient lights). But the amount of issues it would potentially cause and the limitations simply are not worth it. Especially the only purpose( in Larian view as far as i've seen ) of introducing day and night is to have an entire ecosystem built around it. Even if we are fine with the simplest implementation that " simple implementation " would require a shit load of testing ( chasing bugs related with quests AND bugs related with your script running on top of the rules imposed by your engine).
@Ragnarok in case you want to ask : But when the night comes, all nps can receive an order to go to sleep, can't they? Well.... not really, no. They can't. It would be done seperately so you would need to pay attention to every possible scenario + quests + states etc from your day and night script level. Which is straight up unnaceptable. The engine should manage it instead this way subjugating the entire architecture of the application to night and day system requirements. Otherwise you obtain spaghetti code with A LOT of ducktape to make it work. If you ever heard of a game where every patch fixes one issue and creates another then people working on that game did what Larian is asked to do and they deeply regret it to this day.
Can it be argued : Wtf, just update the engine? Yes! It can!! Most likely in BG4 or DOS3 though. OR....they already did it . Cause BG3 sold really good on Day 1 so my small dream is they are simply hiding the fact they are already working on it <3
Last edited by virion; 20/11/2201:53 PM.
Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
It is also worth noting that fixed lightning allows for environment artists to "bake" the scenery more accurately compared to dynamic lightning. This way they can control where the shadows are, how the atmosphere should be, how the SFXs and ambient lights interact with each other, etc...
seasons (in this case autumn) and day/night cycle…
Don’t think it gonna be super perfect game but i really like how they nailed this sort of stuffs there. I can’t stop admiring.
And they post here and there little teasing stuffs like this, while someone at Larian makes tik tok, vomit garbage on their main yt page and calling that “communication with community” i guess?
Just take a look at first few seconds of this video and then look at Bg3 how dead, static and non immersive it is… how can that be acceptable to some people and they would settle for less i really cannot fathom…/sadness I added some more videos:
![[Linked Image from imgs.xkcd.com]](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tasks_2x.png)