Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;)

At least we can all agree it's Dwarfs...

Green... NO WAIT!

Heheh I don't know, maybe it's just like our Second Age Elf version of a really bad short hair trend? A sign of the darkening times, without even a hint of sideburn lol. I'm not sure I really need Gil-Galad to have great hair for things to still work out though.

Honestly Felagund looked almost exactly like that default BG3 male Half-Elf from the polygon article of two years ago. You know the patch 2 raz joke about BG3 players going way too basic in the char creator. Felagund pretty much copied that dude's BG3 Cleric look entirely, just in blonde, so I don't know lol. Maybe it's like their version of a Quaker beard or something, and Gil-Galad and Elrond are going full honest Abe for this one, but then it falls out of fashion, with the cooler hair of the 3rd Age waiting to steal the show there. Just so we'd have something to compare it to more favorably later on hehehe

OK. So seriously. Not trying to be a pain to the OP or anyone who agrees with them, but I am seriously having a problem finding descriptions that match the OP's - and others' - descriptions of elves in Forgotten Realms. This is what the OP described:

"Narrower chins and jaws, shifted, widened and slanted eyes, high and prominent cheekbones, an unsettling, inhumanly haunting beauty about them; these qualities aren't being reflected as well as they could be.

Many of us who have always have a soft spot for elves would be very happy if we could get at least a couple of heads that look more 'traditional', that is, less human and a little more like they belong to a different race. Elves are beautiful, yes, but key words in their description are often overlooked and not given much tought. They are not described as breath-taking, or captivating, although they might be. They are described with words such as unsettling, unnerving, haunting, when it comes to their beauty. This is no casual choice of wording, it clearly states elves are simply not meant to be or feel relatable."

Now, I remember reading descriptions of D&D elves that stated they had almond-shaped eyes, were of course beautiful, men often looked almost feminine as well, slanted eyes, narrower chins and jaws, etc. But I can't find anything from any materials that actually says these things. All I'm finding right now is:

Although individual Tel-quessir races exhibit a number of unique traits, there are some features which are common to all of the races. Tel-quessir tend to be fair, beautiful and graceful, though they are very often frail as well.

Sun Elves
Like all of the Tel-quessir, the sun elves were close to the height of humans, but with notable differences. Sun elves had bronze-colored skin and hair most often of copper, golden blond, and black, with red more uncommon but not unheard of.[5] Sun elves typically had green eyes, though golden ones were also common[7], often with a liquid appearance, and silver, black, hazel, or copper hues had also been heard of.[5] Like their moon elven brethren, male sun elves were typically taller and heavier than females, sometimes by as much as five inches or twenty pounds.[8]

Sun elves had a reputation for being stronger but less durable than other elves.

Moon Elves
Like all elves, the Teu-tel-quessir were tall, close to humans in height, but more slender and beautiful. Moon elf skin was pale, often with an icy blue hue. Moon elf hair was commonly black, blue, or silvery white, although human-like colors were heard of as well, though very rare. Moon elf eyes, like those of other elves, were very commonly green, although some were blue as well. All exhibited a characteristic best described as golden flecks speckled through the iris. Male moon elves were typically taller than females.

Star Elves
Star elves looked similar to moon elves, with light skin and hair of gold, red, or silver[2]. They had violet or gray eyes with occasional gold flecks in them. They were tall for elves, being about 5 1⁄2 to 6 ft (1.67 to 1.83 m) tall, and had a slender build. They liked to wear elaborate tunics but in neutral tones, so as to better remain unseen in the forest. They were strikingly handsome by human standards, even more so than other elves.

Wood Elves
Wood elves were easily identifiable by their coppery skin and green, brown, or hazel eyes. Wood elven hair was usually black or brown,[1] although hues such as blond or copper red were also found. Wood elves tended to dress in simple clothes, similar to those of the moon elves but with fewer bold colors and a greater number of earth tones that blended into their natural surroundings. Accustomed to a harsh, naturalistic lifestyle, wood elves loved to wear leather armor, even when they were not under immediate threat. Wood elves were roughly identical to other elves in height and build, with males larger than females.[4]

Wood elves were often stronger than other Tel-quessir, including other elves, but were frequently less cerebral than moon and sun elves, who put a greater value on education.

Wild Elves
Wild elves had darker skin than other elven subraces, in a range of light brown to dark brown. Males were usually larger than females, sometimes by as much as 5 inches or 20 pounds, but wild elves differed little in size from other elves. An average male was 5 feet 8 inches (173 centimeters) in height and weighed 150 pounds (68 kilograms), while an average female was 5 feet 3 inches (160 centimeters) and 130 pounds (60 kilograms). Their hair could be anything from black to light brown, and it grayed and turned to white with old age.[5] Wild elves, like other elves, were nimble and agile in body, but they were commonly thought of as less intelligent than their elven brethren, due in part to their aversion to civilization.[1]

They preferred to wear as little clothing as possible and chose instead to adorn themselves with other decorations like tattoos, feathers, or body paint. They could make and wear complicated and intricate beadwork.

Drow
In many ways, the drow resembled other elves[22] or eladrin.[23] Their bodies were wiry and athletic,[22] while their faces were chiseled and attractive,[23] though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.[9][24][10] Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,[9] the drow (especially nobles)[24] looked attractive[23] even in comparison to other elven subraces.[25] Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear.[23] According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance.[26]

Reports varied on the physical differences between the drow sexes. Some purported that females were generally bigger and stronger than males,[22] while others claimed the males had superior strength.[27] Both sexes varied in height from 4 feet and ​7 inches​ to ​5 feet and ​5 inches (140​ to ​170 centimeters), averaging at 5 feet (150 centimeters). Males weighed between 87​ to ​157 pounds (39​ to ​71.2 kilograms), averaging 109.5 pounds (49.67 kilograms), while females were a bit lighter, weighing between 82​ to ​152 pounds (37​ to ​68.9 kilograms) and averaging 104.5 pounds (47.4 kilograms).

Avariel
Avariel were more delicate than their earth-bound cousins, with hollow bones to aid their flight. They had pale skin, often porcelain white. An avariel's wings were usually white, but could be black, brown, or speckled.[5] Avariel were also known to practice the dyeing of wing tips.[citation needed] Their eyes were slightly larger than normal and ranged in color from brilliant blues to green or purple. Their hair color was normally a silver-white or black.


Ah! Finally. Something mentioning eye size, but this is one minor sub-race that says their eyes were slightly larger than normal.

And there is nothing in D&D Beyond about elves having pointed ears or almond-shaped eyes or elongated faces. Again, I'm seriously trying to find out why anyone has this concept of elves in mind. Where is this description found? I've gotta just be missing it. Even on just plain old Wikipedia, I can't find a description that matches the OP's or those who agree with the OP.

And seriously, we can't go simply based on art, because I've seen a WIDE array of elf art that ranges from frankly scary alien looking to humans with pointy ears - like Lauranna from Dragonlance, for example.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/d...p/width/360/height/450?cb=20200731182704


or Gilthanas



And whoa! I remember those images now... Is that supposed to be Drizzt, and are those drow? They look like old men with dark gray skin and pointy ears. Am I wrong?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKxMO6PSZF1KRuv7PApnisvr3LiQPEFF5Fyrx5H_y5-jjALhqSD-Vp_CylFz6IDLsGJkc&usqp=CAU


And here's some artwork for elves that are both D&D and Forgotten Realms. They look pretty humanish to me:




I'm actually now wondering if somewhere along the way, someone decided that elves needed to look more alien-like, so they decided to draw some elongated faces with bigger almond-shaped eyes, and the next thing you know people started all saying that that was the basic description and traditional description of an elf when, in reality, there never was such a description. Even in Tolkien's work, it actually never says elves have pointed ears and almond-shaped eyes and elongated faces.

Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with the OP that I'd like to see more faces for elves and faces that look more like what the OP is calling "traditional" elf faces, but I'm just saying that I myself, after really delving into this, am kinda blown away that what some of us believe are "traditional" elves are actually, in fact, not "traditional" elves. "Traditional" elves are, in fact, subject to interpretation, it seems, for many just made them humans with pointy ears, many made them look more alien, and many have done something in between - and none of the descriptions I can find actually detail elves as being as "traditionally" described.

It's interesting thinking about how fashion and culture would work among a people who live many human lifetimes. I find that Human's tend to find their style when they first become adults, so for Elves you'd imagine a breadth of fashion, hairstyles and customs spanning centuries, even if things change more slowly.

And not to be that guy but if we were to work the Second Age into a real world context, what time period would that be? Between Napoleon and the Great War or would it be the time between the two world wars? I wouldn't mind seeing what an Elven flapper looked like.

GM4Him, in this very thread, you've agreed with the topic creator (and myself, but, hey, that's a matter of vanity) on multiple occasions. Why the reversal? Why the need to play contrarian?

Here's an idea: the art changed because it is effectively impossible to differentiate between a Human and an Elf in some of these (arguably low-effort) pieces. As for your displayed example of Laurana from Dragonlance, I've proven that the same artist (Larry Elmore) can render her looking like an Elf ->

Does she look the same?

Additionally, if an Elf looks just like a Human but with slightly elongated ears, then how do you distinguish a similarly bland/low-effort Half-Elf from the pair?


Tolkien's Elves =/= D&D Elves. However, you are correct: there is no description (at least, from what I've scanned thus far) in any of the D&D PHBs which describe Elves as possessing pointy ears. Should artists simply draw normal humans with a tag saying "Hi, I'm an elf." and save themselves the trouble of truly distinguishing those creations?

P.S. As for your "But some examples..." argument, then how do you reconcile that with art of the Drow which essentially makes them look African-American? Picking outliers (e.g., the aforementioned low-effort pieces) and running with those seems like a poor strategy.

I did agree with you and the OP, and I still do in regards to having more faces that are "traditional elves". I posted this recent post because, after the RoP debate, I went hunting for descriptions and art that would prove the point that elves are traditionally elongated faces, almond shaped eyes etc. I was surprised to discover that this is simply not true. There is no description of elves stating such things, and the point of the pics is to show legit FR art that depicts elves as not the traditional elves we would think of.

In short, it's changed my perception of the topic. Just because we have come to think of elves as angular features and elongated faces with almond shaped eyes, it doesn't mean that's the actual traditional concept. The actual descriptions are vague and the art varies too much for us to have any real authority on the subject. Unless you can find something more on it, which is part of why I presented it. I'm stunned I can't actually find anything solid besides some art that shows what we're talking about. But again, just because some art shows elves looking that way, it doesn't actually mean that's how all elves are.

^ Thanks for the Vietnam War flashback.


Elves aren't Humans, though; depending on their particular race, an Elf lives anywhere from a few centuries to an entire millennium. Outside of combat or emergencies, they* tend to think or change at a commensurately slower pace. I know this isn't always represented in D&D-based fiction, but it is apparently a part of their psychology. That said, they are primarily Chaotic Good in Alignment, so you should expect quite a bit of individuality in each individual's wardrobe.

* Adventurer-friendly exceptions aside.

The very first example from the AD&D Player's Handbook (way back in the late 1970s) ->


The Elf is significantly shorter and slimmer than the Human; the Elf features pointed ears and almond eyes (they're not blatant, but they are there).

Bottom line: you can point to pieces which were comparatively lazier attempts (e.g., Elves as Humans or Drow as African-Americans/standard old men) and I'll agree that they exist, but to argue that there wasn't a collective baseline representation over the years of Elves that looked properly otherworldly/sylvan is disingenuous.

Ok. That's a good example. Like I said, I've always thought of them as traditionally that way, but there are many things that I've thought were a certain way only to discover that they were not. Someone told me they were that way, and I believed it and ran with it.

I will add to your comment about Laurana and Elmore and point out the image of Laurana in front of Tekisis.

https://www.google.com/search?q=laurana+dragonlance&prmd=insv&sxsrf=ALiCzsaCu37J0jRi9pe2AOhsSIqUUZHjcQ:1662664500586&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6_7_384X6AhVAGTQIHTaDAjEQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=432&bih=812&dpr=2.5#imgrc=faTDi1FQf2KRHM&lnspr=W10=

She looks much more Elven in that image.

I think it comes from Arthur Rackham myself, but not so much from the way he depicted Elves (since they look more like the christmas germanic goblin versions) but rather from his faeries and the way he drew his heroines especially. Like I'm sure Tolkien was familiar enough with his illustrations of Sigurd and whatnot, but I mean more like what he did for Undine. I think Tolkien probably saw Undine and said, yep, that's the one! And Galadriel is basically that...
heheh


When she was swimming the sundering seas, I definitely thought of it.


Sure it's not showing the ears, and Undine is more of a classic naiad, Thetis of the sea or the river nymph, as opposed to sidhe of the mound style, but I just mean for a kind of general visual take.

For the ears I think that comes into it at first more from the faerie realm that way, or that element of the fairy depictions particularly from late 19th century illustration. Going back a fair ways before that I'd imagine, sure, but that's where I think it cracked off into the modern era again. So take a character like Ariel in the Tempest and the way she's usually drawn, or the way Fuseli painted his nightmare versions, or the pointy ears of various demons from medieval era stuff maybe.

Or of course, the original woodland archetype of Sylvanus (the Roman deity I mean, not the D&D one) Pan/Faunus, often depicted with big pointy animal ears, usually deer-like or donkey-like. Also all the kind of Christmas elves, and dwarves and gnomes with that look from out the Germanic/Norse traditions. Cause what we get in D&D is basically that crossed with the tautha de danann concept or the Tolkien style elves right? Filtered through like a hundred years of stylistic choices made by American illustrators like Frazetta too, since he helped cook up that first roto-toon. I mean I suppose it's gotta be at least as much dudes like that, as it is callbacks to Rackham and the celtic revival era stuff, or nibelungenlied ring cycle stuff that prob caught Tolkien's eye from the generation before him.

I also wouldn't underestimate the influence of Star Trek, and the vulcan space Elf-look there. I think the convention is almost certainly way more pulp illustration than anything else though.

Curiously in the days of BG1, I think there was perhaps a push to keep the ears hidden under the locks, and make them look more or less human, just so the limited number of portraits there could be more adaptive. So like Jaheira's portrait in BG1 say, which could work both ways, provided you buy in on the 'Elves lookin' kinda Human' kick. I think the traditionalist look of Alan Lee's artwork is a big influence on the current version. I mean for as traditional as going back to the late 70s is gonna get ya hehe. "Faeries" came out what like 78 or 79? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything in popular illustration going back much earlier that would totally accord with the more familiar D&D depictions of the 1980s, unless you're looking at Frazetta doing Conan stuff in like late 1960s I guess. Though there you'd be a lot more likely to catch someone just not wearing pants, not necessarily with the pointed ears hehe.

I think for a shape of the ears the Elfshot elf-arrow/elf-bolt is another possible take. Since that's pretty much the shape of their ears right?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfshot


Here's a bitsy bit from Etymonline, just on the word...


ps. oh also, the Lang's Fairy Books, that colored volume Fairy Tale series from the turn of the last century with Grey, Green etc books. Have to mention those!!! The illustrations by HJ Ford, W Heath Robinson and Charles Robinson etc... . There are some definite proto glimpses in there for sure. Some of Howard Pyle's and NC Wyeth's Arthurian era stuff as well probably, though I'm struggling to find any ears there, they're invariably on the little mischievous or devilish creatures, the sprites and the imps and the goblins more than the fey humans. Dulac's stuff has it as well on occasion, for examples of what was en vogue pre Tolkien. Just for some stuff that was sort of percolating around at that time, which had the vibe and probably fed into it. Especially as the faeries become kinda more sexualized and thus human-ized in that way. Basically when you get Nixies that start looking more like this...


rather than the swamp thing hehe.

But then for the ears those are really more like what the Witch has going on in this one.



Thanks Tony! lol

Like late 1880s to that first decade of the 20th century, in the popular fairy tale tomes of that era. I don't think it starts getting more explicitly what we think of now as Elves till the 1970s though, with that little nouveau fantasy revival that happened then, while D&D was being born.

It is interesting to see how people discuss how a fictional race should look correctly.
I am not an expert for DnD or Tolkien and I just read a few wikipedia articles, but here is my opinion:

I see 3 possible origins for elfs:
- medieval norse mythology: Elfs are small creatures and they are often evil. So they are shown as source of nightmares and illnesses.
There is no clear distinction to other small creatures such as dwarves, gnomes or kobolds.
- They are related to sylvan creatures such as nymphs who lived long enough in the material world and had contact to other civilized races so they became civilized people as well.
They have a close relation to nature and they look some kind of alien.
- They look like slim humans with slightly different ears and eyes. Like the DnD 1E picture shown before.

Personally I prefer the second option, the more sylvan look. In a computer game I think different races should be distinclive. You look at somebody and you can tell right away that this is a human, dwarf or elf.
So I agree when somebody says: "It is a problem when elfs look too much like humans with pointy ears." In that sense, I like the look of the elfs in DOS2.
We can discuss how alien they should be so that other races in the world (especially humans) definitely consider them people and not monsters.

The Evermeet book there is a bad example. The Prince there on the cover's father was noted in-universe for being a particularly abnormal Arnold Schwarzenegger of an elf, the other character is a human.

D&D art is all over the place, because artists often had quite a bit of leeway in what they did. In the case of drow for instance, early art often depicts them with mustaches or pale skin because of a misinterpretation of the original artwork for them (mistaking the lighting on the upper lip for facial hair, thinking they were pale skinned because it was a black and white drawing)

In the case of elven features, it was 3.X that really nailed down the appearance though. IIRC there was a particular art piece that broke down how elves were drawn vs humans and half elves. It's in the first post on the first page. That's what they are supposed to look like in the Realms.

I accept artistic license when it comes to how elves are portrayed.

lol, you know, I remember being young and reading my first Forgotten Realms novel, which was Spellfire, by Ed Greenwood. The book mentioned elves, and the whole time I had pictured in my head little Keebler elves. It took me a while to figure out they were different.

I think it's fine to have different interpretations, and I think it's nice that artists get to explore different looks.

There's actually a passage in the Dragonlance book by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman that refer to dark elves having facial hair... even though you'd think those books would know better, especially considering how Tanis Half-Elven had a beard as a sort of representation of his human side.

*

For me, the only important thing in terms of BG3 is whether or not I find the faces appealing. Either attractive or full of character. And--again, at least for me--a lot of the faces fail that test. Not just the elves, but all the male human faces.

Some of them just look... weird. Almost goofy.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I hesitate to say that the models for BG3 are unattractive because DANG. These are real people. Right? Someone stood up and put themselves out there to become characters in the game. It's kinda mean to say they are unattractive and such. Each is attractive in their own way and to someone.

I totally agree with you, though, JandK. There aren't a ton of faces that tend to fit what I'm imagining for my characters, especially for guys.

What I truly want isn't a removal of faces. It's adding more faces, and I think we all want more elvish faces like what Goldberry was describing. But again, I'd like all faces available for all races. I think it'd be cool, for example, to create a more oriental elf or dwarf or halfling or whatever. Why not? Let us be creative and outside the box. The more unique, the better in my opinion.

Oh... Wait. I do want some faces removed. I want the faces removed that belong to NPCs. I hate creating a character and then discovering some NPC has the same face. It's weird.

+1


You know, I actually agree about most of what you've just said.

I actually don't find any of the faces ugly (honestly). Some are a bit more atypical but they have their charmed/cuteness. I'm all for atypical/non-conventional models.

I do agree that it would be nice to have more faces for all races and genders. And if they don't have strict rules (like it seems to be the case now) about how races should typically look...then share the models between the different races(/genders?).

However, I don't want options to be removed. Maybe changing the face of NPCs instead?

Ah. True. I did create a character that looked like an NPC, and I rather liked his look. It would suck to later try to recreate him and have to go with a different face.

A Caldwell piece, eh? That's a nice find!


Mister Elk, your breakdowns continue to impress me to no end; these contributions of yours are true treasures!


To an extent.

This thread has already demonstrated that there's plenty of artistic variety when it comes to properly depicted Dungeons & Dragons elves: the ears, the eyes (almond/slanted/unusual colors/et cetera), the fine/chiseled features (oftentimes angular) and - in many instances - the build (slender and shorter compared to humans). Slapping pointy ears on a human is not only Lazy (with a capital "L"), but it clashes with the racial standard in an especially glaring way. IMO, the only specimens of that type which should exist are so for a good reason: Polymorph, a family curse, a Reincarnation imposed by a powerful figure (typically a god), a custom-tailored illusory appearance, a setting where elves are explicitly described as looking almost indistinguishable from humans, et cetera. They absolutely should not represent a typical example of Corellon's kids.

Shrug. You're free to use your artistic license in whatever way you want when you create your elves.

And you're free to like or dislike someone else's interpretation.

But I would argue that their interpretation is just as valid as your own. So "absolutely should not" seems a little authoritarian and silly, at least to me.

As far as D&D is concerned, that is incorrect: I have already demonstrated that Elves have looked markedly different from Humans since Day 1. Any pieces since that time which ran contrary were either products born of selective laziness or by an artist who wasn't given an adequate description.