Solasta's reaction system mostly worked so far because they chickened out (or have no rights to the ruleset giving them the opportunity) of implementing the more difficult classes that use it (Bard is at least supposed to be coming sometime in the future, and the Wizard subclasses are fully homebrew, for example). I am curious to see as to what having a Bard in the party would look like with their system, if they do make the inspirations and Cutting Words work like in RAW. That would mean a LOT of popups for every friendly attack, getting hit, and so on. And since the Lore bard is the OGL subclass, it's safe to assume that it will be in the game (unless they just throw it away like they did with the Evocation wizard and switch it for something of their own instead).
Solasta's reaction system mostly worked so far because they chickened out (or have no rights to the ruleset giving them the opportunity) of implementing the more difficult classes that use it (Bard is at least supposed to be coming sometime in the future, and the Wizard subclasses are fully homebrew, for example). I am curious to see as to what having a Bard in the party would look like with their system, if they do make the inspirations and Cutting Words work like in RAW. That mean a LOT of popups for every friendly attack, getting hit, and so on. And since the Lore bard is the OGL subclass, it's safe to assume that it will be in the game (unless they just throw it away like they did with the Evocation wizard and switch it for something of their own instead).
So once again Solasta did the right thing and BG3 could only learn from it? And leverage its exponentially bigger budget to implement it even better?
Already said several times in the past, but if the problem is supposed to be about specifically about some very particular abilities (Cutting words is the one that gets mentioned constantly), then THESE are the ones that need some fixing/compromise, without any need to TRHOW AWAY the entire concept of a reaction system for a minority of people with a massive attention deficit.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I perfectly know your opinion and you mostly know mine. Don't feel obliged to shout your disapproval when I give a different opinion than yours on the matter... Especially if it doesn't add anything to the conversations we have already had.
Oh, I absolutely do, especially since that doesn't seem to stop you and the usual suspects from re-stating your +1 "AGAINST REACTIONS" over and over.
Don't feel obliged to shout your disapproval when I give a different opinion than yours on the matter... Especially if it doesn't add anything to the conversations we have already had.
If you dont mind ... could you please also follow your own advice?
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup. You should take a break if it bother you so much that my opinion is different than yours on the matter.
I'm glad Saito's non-nuanced (on purpose) poll makes you feel comfortable but you're wasting your time if you think that you have a chance to "stop me" expressing my opinion.
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup.
You're either reacting or not. If you're reacting, it's on enemy's turn (which you're reacting to), and thus it's either a time-gated thing like in a shooter (won't happen here obviously) or pause and a "prompt" of one kind or another. This is it. All other things that you do on your turn, be it preactions, choosing enemies to "react" to, toggling presets and all that bs simply are not reactions.
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup.
You're either reacting or not. If you're reacting, it's on enemy's turn (which you're reacting to), and thus it's either a time-gated thing like in a shooter (won't happen here obviously) or pause and a "prompt" of one kind or another. This is it. All other things that you do on your turn, be it preactions, choosing enemies to "react" to, toggling presets and all that bs simply are not reactions.
Why wouldn't it happen? I would be fine with a QTE, like a skill button to toggle anytime during the enemy turn to react. I don't really like the turn based argument since the fluidity it would offer is barely a compromise to me.
Why wouldn't it happen? I would be fine with a QTE, like a skill button to toggle anytime during the enemy turn to react. I don't really like the turn based argument since the fluidity it would offer is barely a compromise to me.
But QTE doesn't solve a thing! If anything it would slow combat further over a popup as you would need to wait for the QTE to finish rather then dismissing it as soon as it appears. Make dismissal of reactions easy - space, RMB, O on the pad. Anything easy to press. You know you don't want to use reaction, it will be an instinct, popup will be gone within a second.
Fluidity is a matter of presentation, not artificial time limit - reactions won't become any more fluid because you need to wait couple seconds for them to expire. You can make choosing things from a menu "fluid" if you present it right.
Whatever the solution will Larian come up with, they need to give players a control over the reaction - when on on whom it triggers - and make their impact on combat clear. That is especially important for defensive skills, which IMO are greatly underappreciated in BG3.
Why wouldn't it happen? I would be fine with a QTE, like a skill button to toggle anytime during the enemy turn to react. I don't really like the turn based argument since the fluidity it would offer is barely a compromise to me.
But QTE doesn't solve a thing! If anything it would slow combat further over a popup as you would need to wait for the QTE to finish rather then dismissing it as soon as it appears. Make dismissal of reactions easy - space, RMB, O on the pad. Anything easy to press. You know you don't want to use reaction, it will be an instinct, popup will be gone within a second.
Fluidity is a matter of presentation, not artificial time limit - reactions won't become any more fluid because you need to wait couple seconds for them to expire. You can make choosing things from a menu "fluid" if you present it right.
Whatever the solution will Larian come up with, they need to give players a control over the reaction - when on on whom it triggers - and make their impact on combat clear. That is especially important for defensive skills, which IMO are greatly underappreciated in BG3.
I am not advocating about slowing down combat for the QTE, the combat would take place at the same speed and you could toggle a button at any time to trigger reaction right after the enemy turn. Sure it is a small window, but it would be the less intrusive way to do that without automating or slowing the pace of the game.
I am not advocating about slowing down combat for the QTE, the combat would take place at the same speed and you could toggle a button at any time to trigger reaction right after the enemy turn. Sure it is a small window, but it would be the less intrusive way to do that without automating or slowing the pace of the game.
Ignoring the real-time elements in a turn based game issue, how do you imagine it being implemented without slowing the combat down. Let's keep it simple - attack of opportunity. Enemy leaves your control zone and you get an opportunity to perform an attack against him. As things currently are, an enemy likely to already leave your control zone before camera pans over (it's a problem in itself, but anyway).
So we need couple things: 1) make sure the player has a clear view on the situation 2) Focus player's attention on right actors: clearly communicate which enemy is moving, what reaction we have an opportunity to perform and by which character (there can be multiple player characters engaging the same enemy afterall) 3) after that give a handful of seconds for player to react or not 4) then the enemy continues to move away, or we switch to the next character who can perform a reaction
The reason it would need to slow the game down, is because the player doesn't have control it - yes, some reactions don't require much decision making, but some will! Especially those that consume valuable resources, like spells. Using a reaction is a big deal - it can not only waste 1/3 of your per-turn action economy, but also consume resources that could be used later in combat. By making it a QTA, you need to give EVERY reaction enough time for players to analyse the situation, otherwise it would be actually worse then what we currently have - both not really allowing players to control what is happening AND potentially making players miss out on them entirely. That IMO MUCH worse, then a popup that can be dismissed when player know he doesn't want to use reaction, but gives him unlimited time to check his resources, check him or enemy stats and weight the ramifications of the decision.
And that doesn't touch a hell that would be if one QTA would trigger different reactions - lets assume we have multiclass warlock with rogue. We get hit and can either use uncanny dodge or hellish rebuke. How do you do that? (how the current system would handle that with both on? Roll dice between the two? Pick helllish rebuke cause offensive way is Larian's way?)
QTE would ironically only work with popups. Enemy leaves melee without disengage. Popup. You have 3 seconds to comply, or something like that.
Otherwise, yeah. They'd have to severely slow down combat in order to give players time to respond. The camera does not jump instantly to who is moving, and even if it did, you wouldn't have time currently to figure out who is moving near who and so forth. It just wouldn't work.
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup.
You're either reacting or not. If you're reacting, it's on enemy's turn (which you're reacting to), and thus it's either a time-gated thing like in a shooter (won't happen here obviously) or pause and a "prompt" of one kind or another. This is it. All other things that you do on your turn, be it preactions, choosing enemies to "react" to, toggling presets and all that bs simply are not reactions.
If my character is doing things to react the ennemies actions during the ennemies turn : I call it reaction. You can nitpick if it pleases you or give it another name if "reaction" makes you think too much about what it is in DnD.
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Fluidity is a matter of presentation, not artificial time limit - reactions won't become any more fluid because you need to wait couple seconds for them to expire. You can make choosing things from a menu "fluid" if you present it right.
I've bought chimera squad a few days ago because of you I really like it, thanks for having talked about it !
But if the breach system is really cool... It doesnt ask you - more or less often - IF you want to do one specific thing - against one specific target. It ask you - once at the beginning of every combats - WHAT you want to do - and against which target.
Having looked at the video for that chimera squad game that Worm linked, it looks like a very cool sequence that I do not want in a turn-based crpg. I enjoy turn-based games because they're like chess. Because I can stop and consider every move, the environment, the things I have at my disposal and the things I could potentially do later in the game, and I can do it all at my own pace. I don't want to suddenly be rushed to make a choice. Maybe in other games I'd enjoy it, but it's not part of the fun of a turn-based game for me.
Also Wormerine pointed out several other issues that would have to be accounted for if Larian goes that QTE route, and I think those are quite valid.
I've bought chimera squad a few days ago because of you I really like it, thanks for having talked about it !
But if the breach system is really cool... It doesnt ask you - more or less often - IF you want to do one specific thing - against one specific target. It ask you - once at the beginning of every combats - WHAT you want to do - and against which target.
It is a huge difference in my opinion.
Ah! I am glad you like it.
I hope you played XCOM2: WotC. Now, that is a fun game!
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Having looked at the video for that chimera squad game that Worm linked, it looks like a very cool sequence that I do not want in a turn-based crpg.
Breach mechanic isn't timed - you can spend as much time analyzing the room, and what ability to use on what enemy as you like.
But I wasn't really trying to compare reactions to breach in any way. The only point I was trying to make is that breach mechanic is rather dry and boring mechanically, but is made cool by presentation. Solasta's clunky feel of reactions isn't tied to mechanics, but to how they are presented. By no means do I suggest that reactions should be as over the top as the breach, but add nice animation, visual and sound effects and QoL snappy UI and one can make a pop up asking "You wanna smack that goblin yes/no" exciting and enjoyable to interact with.
Having looked at the video for that chimera squad game that Worm linked, it looks like a very cool sequence that I do not want in a turn-based crpg. I enjoy turn-based games because they're like chess. Because I can stop and consider every move, the environment, the things I have at my disposal and the things I could potentially do later in the game, and I can do it all at my own pace. I don't want to suddenly be rushed to make a choice.
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You aren't rushed to make a choice. The time in the game literally slown down to a complete stop until you confirm one action or another. Precisely like (you guessed it?) in a Solasta reaction.
It's just presented in a more dramatic way.
Last edited by Tuco; 20/08/2211:52 PM.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup.
You're either reacting or not. If you're reacting, it's on enemy's turn (which you're reacting to), and thus it's either a time-gated thing like in a shooter (won't happen here obviously) or pause and a "prompt" of one kind or another. This is it. All other things that you do on your turn, be it preactions, choosing enemies to "react" to, toggling presets and all that bs simply are not reactions.
If my character is doing things to react the ennemies actions during the ennemies turn : I call it reaction. You can nitpick if it pleases you or give it another name if "reaction" makes you think too much about what it is in DnD.
??? Like what? I was talking about reactions in general, not just in DnD. And yes, it's a reaction only if you're deciding how to react on someone else's turn (which you're reacting to), not on your own turn (that would be just another action, preaction, toggling presets trying to predict future... all those are not reactions). You do reactions on another chatacter's turn, that is the whole point. And so you're promted to react when the opportunity arises. It's the only way for reactions to be reactions and not some stupid another type of actions on your turn. So you can't have reactions without promt. You can have some abomination on your turn and call that reactions, yes. But calling some person a frog doesn't make them a frog.
I'm not stating a +1 against reactions at all but against prompts and popup.
You're either reacting or not. If you're reacting, it's on enemy's turn (which you're reacting to), and thus it's either a time-gated thing like in a shooter (won't happen here obviously) or pause and a "prompt" of one kind or another. This is it. All other things that you do on your turn, be it preactions, choosing enemies to "react" to, toggling presets and all that bs simply are not reactions.
If my character is doing things to react the ennemies actions during the ennemies turn : I call it reaction. You can nitpick if it pleases you or give it another name if "reaction" makes you think too much about what it is in DnD.
??? Like what? I was talking about reactions in general, not just in DnD. And yes, it's a reaction only if you're deciding how to react on someone else's turn (which you're reacting to), not on your own turn (that would be just another action, preaction, toggling presets trying to predict future... all those are not reactions). You do reactions on another chatacter's turn, that is the whole point. And so you're promted to react when the opportunity arises. It's the only way for reactions to be reactions and not some stupid another type of actions on your turn. So you can't have reactions without promt. You can have some abomination on your turn and call that reactions, yes. But calling some person a frog doesn't make them a frog.
Gotta disagree with the "So you can't have reactions without promt."
I'm not opposed to trying some form of presets for reactions for most D&D reactions. AOO, for example, is probably the main reaction in the game, and there really isn't that many instances where a player WOULDN'T use it on the first bad guy who leaves melee without disengage. So why prompt it? Why not have it preset to trigger for you so you don't need to interrupt battle for something you're just going to say yes to anyway?
The same is actually true for most Reactions. 9 times out of 10, you're going to say yes to the first enemy who triggers it. But, for those times when you might be unsure that you'd say yes, set the preset at that point to prompt.
Having looked at the video for that chimera squad game that Worm linked, it looks like a very cool sequence that I do not want in a turn-based crpg. I enjoy turn-based games because they're like chess. Because I can stop and consider every move, the environment, the things I have at my disposal and the things I could potentially do later in the game, and I can do it all at my own pace. I don't want to suddenly be rushed to make a choice.
?
??
???
You aren't rushed to make a choice. The time in the game literally slown down to a complete stop until you confirm one action or another. Precisely like (you guessed it?) in a Solasta reaction.
It's just presented in a more dramatic way.
Oh, I entirely misunderstood what I was seeing. Sorry about that.
Gotta disagree with the "So you can't have reactions without promt."
I'm not opposed to trying some form of presets for reactions for most D&D reactions. AOO, for example, is probably the main reaction in the game, and there really isn't that many instances where a player WOULDN'T use it on the first bad guy who leaves melee without disengage. So why prompt it? Why not have it preset to trigger for you so you don't need to interrupt battle for something you're just going to say yes to anyway?
The same is actually true for most Reactions. 9 times out of 10, you're going to say yes to the first enemy who triggers it. But, for those times when you might be unsure that you'd say yes, set the preset at that point to prompt.
>AOO, for example, is probably the main reaction in the game, and there really isn't that many instances where a player WOULDN'T use it on the first bad guy who leaves melee without disengage ?? What about all the spellcasters who could 1) have a spell with reaction cast time (they would probably prefer that to bonking someone with a staff) 2) have war caster feat so they can literally choose a spell to use instead of AOO. Not mentioning cases when a character simply prepared ation for the next turn, which might be better (or not - you have to react and decide) than AOO.
>Why not have it preset to trigger for you so you don't need to interrupt battle for something you're just going to say yes to anyway? 1) Because it's not "anyway" but "in some cases". 2) INTERRUPT BATTLE? HOW IN THE HELL LITERAL PART OF THE BATTLE INTERRUPTS IT?? Does eating fries interrupt your dinner? Like what? It's literally part of the combat - reacting to what is happening. Doesn't having to anwer in quest dialogues interrupt your adventuring then? It's literally prompting you to answer. And hell, you already know what your characer would say... but the game fing interrupts the flow and prompts you with a dialogue where you have to manually click... Why not preset answering in dialogues based on character's alignment? Obviously a lawful good would choose to help poor people who's cart is stuck in the mud. And chaotic evil would pretend to help while stealing goods. Let's preset it so we can play the game by watching it without those god awful interruptions when we're asked to actually (the horror!) play the game.
>The same is actually true for most Reactions. 9 times out of 10, you're going to say yes to the first enemy who triggers it. No. First of all, "the same" isn't even true about AOO. Secondly, you don't have the statistics to write something like 9/10. Why not 23/100? And with those reactions who use up resources you definetely wouldn't blindly say yes to the first trigger. (Now consider that reaction itself is a resource because you only have one per round...)
>But, for those times when you might be unsure that you'd say yes, set the preset at that point to prompt. No, let's make it like in Solasta (like in you know, DnD), and then YOU, if Larian would waste their time on this nonsece, would toggle and preset your reactions to trigger/not trigger (and how exactly to trigger) for infinite amount of possible situations.
Are you angry? You sound angry. Maybe let's take a step back. I'm not saying I don't like prompts such as what Solasta has. I love Solasta. It blows BG3 away in terms of combat mechanics and balance. I don't even mind the prompt reaction mechanics in that game.
I'm just saying that prompts aren't necessarily the only solution to Reactions. I wouldn't mind trying out a preset system where the presets handle most of my reactions for me - ones I would most likely say yes to every time anyway.
And for wizards, if you don't want them to AOO so they save their reaction for spells, etc., You can turn off the AOO preset. Leave the spell preset on. Have it set to prompt or some form of preset that you prefer.
Like Shield. I'd probably set Shield to trigger automatic whenever my wizard would be hit and it would save him from taking damage, at least at lower levels when HP is low. I don't need a prompt at that point because casting Shield would save his life. I'm going to cast it every time because he has low HP. Later, I might turn it off or set it to prompt because he has more HP and I might not want to waste the slot.
