Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General About the "evil" path.

I agree with everything except a Nettie/Weapon example. Putting a weapon or another desired item as a restriction on your moral compass is not something I enjoy in those games.

Ok. Whatever. I just whipped that up.

Here's a better example of what I mean:

Flip the script. Instead of seeing you and your companions starting to transform because you are using tadpole powers, make it so you start showing signs of transformation because you aren't using tadpole powers and helping the cult. Then have the dream lover offer to help you control the transformation if you just do what s/he says. Use the powers, join the cult. It's the only way to save yourself.

Now, whether evil or not, you find yourself with serious motivation to be evil.

Stop right there ...
I didnt read the rest, bcs right here you allready have potentialy false premise ... by seting this so early, you allready presumed your Tav characteristic.

What if i dont tolerate them? What if i send them all to hell, or imediately kill them?
I mean when i tryed my Githyanki gameplay:
- Shadowheart attacked me, bcs i was a Gith ... so i killed her.
- Astarion attacked me, bcs he is an asshole ... so i killed him.
- Gale didnt do anything wrong ... but game offered me to kill him, and concidering other interactions it seemed apropriate ... so i killed him.

And i end up with Lae'zel only.

There is a difference between evil and psychotic.

If you want to do a play through where you just murder everyone - then just do a play through where you murder everyone. I don't think there is much stopping you.

You should have read the rest. I think you missed my point

on my first 40 hour play way back at day one i killed 'Astarion' because he was there and clearly up to no good

my first character was a thief and i had no clue who Astarion was... i don't consider that playthrough as the evil path and i saved the grove because i found the Druid and helped him fight the goblins [at the time i just knew they were hurting a bear, not that he was a druid] then every golbin attacked me and i had to fight to survive
if anything i consider that first character was gray morally speaking

So now i read the rest ...
And i think what you are describing is allready there ... when you say people dont really feel it ... dunno, i do ... i smell opourtunity.

When you claim that the red flags are too obvious ... i read that people are simply affraid to risk it.
'faint heart never won fair maiden'

I mean ... core of any try to outsmart someone in his own dirty game, is that you *know* he will eventualy betray you, if the opourtunity will present itself ... the goal, and basicaly whole meaning of the word outsmarting ... is to create this opourtunity for yourself and sooner than he do.
Therefore (and i would say duh here, if i didnt know how much you hate that ... word i gues) existence of danger is irellevant in this case, only someone blind, deaf, dumm, ignorant and stupid ... all combined and multiplied several times ... would presume there will be no obstacle.

I wouldnt be too much against more covenient situations to use our tadpole ...
Cant say i really liked those you offered tho ... but that new one on Nautiloid is prefect in my honest opinion. ^_^

Cute ... few notes tho:

1) Not the point here ... what i was talking is that GM4Him allready give our potential "evil" character some characteristic that may not fit other potential characters ... trying to show that no matter what reasons you came with for any decision, those reasons logicaly aply only to that character you just play.

2) I wasnt asking for any permition. O_o

3) There is nothing "psychotic" about defending yourself ... both Astarion and Shadowheart attacked me ... there is also difference between Good and Foolish.

And to this, I totally agree. I actually think that Larian has set up a rather decent, if not "good", evil path. They don't lock you into one particular "evil" path. Not really. It is what people perceive to be Larian locking them into a particular evil path. YOU, the player, decides what your motivation is. That I very much like, and that seems to be what you are saying that you like as well.

My point in saying that there are too many red flags is that I am putting myself into the shoes of those players who see the writing on the wall and say, "Um. No. Even as an evil character I'm not going to join the Absolute. It's OBVIOUSLY suicide. I have a tadpole in my head and I want to get rid of it. My best bet is Halsin."

Well, yeah. That's what you perceive is your best bet. But it's not the ONLY bet, and just because you perceive it as your best bet doesn't mean that it actually IS your best bet. As I mentioned, the evil motivation might be that you think you can outsmart the Absolute and the cult. Your evil motivation might be that you think your best bet is to join the cult because they ACTUALLY have the answers and Halsin and Nettie are just guessing at best. Your evil motivation might be that you just like to murder people. Your evil motivation might be that Astarion, Shadowheart, GAle, Wyll and even Lae'zel annoy the crap out of you and you don't like any of them and you want the cult of the Absolute as your party members (in this regard we need more potential party members from the cult... LIKE MINTHARA AS AN ACTUAL PARTY MEMBER!). Maybe your evil motivation is that you can't stand the tieflings or the druids or both. The point is, YOU decide.

But the other point is that currently there are a lot of reasons why even evil characters would hesitate to join the cult. That's what I mean by red flags. There are too many negatives and warnings thrown in your face. Use the tadpole powers and suddenly you get the Dream Lover sequence. Then in the morning you find that you are changing and transforming. Um. Whoop whoop! Red Flag! If I keep being evil I'm going to turn into a mind flayer. I keep using my powers. Whoop Whoop! Dream Lover again and now we're getting sick. Red flag! If I keep being evil I'm going to turn into a mind flayer. If I join Minthara and kill the tieflings and druids. Whoop Whoop! Negative consequence. Half my party leaves or hates me. More signs that we're turning. Lae'zel tries to kill me.

In short, my point is that we are punished for being evil so that it makes us force ourselves to be evil. That's not really how evil works. It entices you and rewards you up front for being evil so that you keep wanting to be evil. I'm saying that Larian should create more rewards for being evil so that even if you are a "good" player you might still be very tempted to be evil.

The big issue I have with the "Evil Path" is that, no, the cult clearly doesn't know what is happening. All of the True Souls have no idea they have a tadpole in their head, and even attempt to kill you if they notice your tadpole. (I'm assuming it's still like this...?)

Yes, the higher ups probably know what is happening. But it's very likely that the higher ups will look at you, see you're aware of your tadpole, and then just immediately kill you because you're a failed experiment and a danger to their goals. People aren't supposed to know that they have mindflayer tadpoles in their heads. This turns the evil path into "Dumb Murder-Happy Evil" for me, rather than a broader "Evil=Selfish, but can still be smart about it" path, especially when there remain multiple options for otherwise healing yourself (Creche, Halsin, going to Baldur's Gate, etc).

+1. The evil path should be tempting for any alignment PC.

There are some risks I’m willing to take, but I’m going to steer away from paths when it’s not clear that the game is registering what I’m doing or is going to be able to let me roleplay the path to conclusion due to a limited number of branching options having been written. I suppose I am afraid of the frustration that would lead to, but that’s different from not having the bravery to try a possibly doomed course of action.

My character, for example, told Minthara he was hers and slept with her after the raid, but that was a lie and he only did that to gain her trust. He actually hated her and would happily stab her in the back as soon as she was no more use to him in infiltrating the cult. But that was all in my head, because there were no different options in the “romance” dialogue for a character that was sincere and one who wasn’t.

Perhaps I should just trust that Larian will have written options that will let me follow my chosen path, but I’m afraid I don’t. I’d be concerned in a full playthrough that I’d put in many hours only for the game to treat my character as having genuinely joined up with the cult or romanced Minthara, and if it’s going to do that then I’d rather betray her and them earlier. I see it as just good design and story telling to give enough feedback to players to indicate to them whether the options they are choosing are recognised and are going to lead to interesting content down the line, or whether they’re going off the map of what the game will cater for.

Up to this point, agreed with everything.
Glad we understand each other, really. ^_^

But:

Im not really sure where you get this paralel ...

Yes, you use your tadpole > you get dream lover ...
But then "in the morning" ... all you find out is that you have new powers.

No changing or transforming was ever mentioned as far as i remember (i just checked some videos on youtube to be sure and nope) ...
Even your party members are mostly fine with the situation at this point.

Here is first dream:


Yes, if you keep using our powers > you get sick and THEN you meet dream lover again ... its it completely oposite order, wich is important even if that may not seem that way ...
Bcs this way:
Something made you sick ... was that usage of powers? Yes, maybe.
(surely if you metagame, but presuming its your first gameplay, or you simply dont ... you dont know, at least not for sure ... even your companions presume its effect of ceremorphosis ... NOT using tadpole powers wich nobody mentioned)
Then you meet your dream lover ...
And now in the morning you are good as new.

So ... the conclusion dot really fits in my opinion:
If anything, you can get to conclusion that the person from your dreams actualy protected you from the sickness, that was caused by presence of tadpole.
But cant really see how to get to that other way around.

Here your companions starts to get suspicious about tadpole powers ... kinda late tho ...

Here is second dream:


Only if you push even futer your companions become openly agry ...
Funny enough, so will your dream lover ... coincidence?
I believe that if he would be the same character as your tadpole, he would hardly be mad at you that you keep using tadpole powers.

Here is third dream:


BTW ...
Just a little joke of mine, since all tadpole sequences are working the same no matter who will use the tadpole powers ... i especialy enjoy forcing Shadowheart to use it, and then join my companions roasting her for being weak and endanger us all.
Fun stuff.

Well ... no. :-/

Laezel try to kill you before your first night.
All that happens here is that Wyll will leave you for sure, and Gale will try (but can be persuated not to) ...

I disagree with this completely ...

There are some punishments sure, but some you can easily avoid even tho you are evil ... and some are not really punishing for your character if you are evil (yes this is purely subjective im aware) ...

So sumarized they arent really punishments "for being evil" ... they are negative consequences for your choices ... and that is fine by me.

Also i really dont want Larian to create any "rewards for being evil, so we are tempted" since this simply isnt the case in this story.

And finaly ... what i love most about this game are nuances:
You are talking about tadpole usage and dreams ... before we were talking about attacking the grove ... next time we can talk about helping Gut, or Spaw ... next time we can talk about Gnome slaves ... or about helping Zariel's "paladins" or Karlach ...
But those all are completely different stories, unrelated to each other.

There is no "evil path" as people often say ... there are evil choices in certain points in many quests ... and thats what i love. :3

Speaking purely for myself ...
When i say that "cult know what is happening" im talking about leaders ... not cannon folder goblin troops, or their leaders pretending how important they are while they are on the very bottom of food chain.

So yeah ... "cult knows" ... again, not the low rank officiers, and most certainly not common members ... wich basicaly means anyone we met so far ...
But cult as a organisation ... meaning its leadership must know ... it seems like the only logical conclusion, they would hardly put tadpole inside every member brain just for fun without any knowledge of its power, or potential control.

And yes, they still try to kill you if they find out.

---

@The_Red_Queen
Im affraid i dont catch the point.

If your character is unwilling to go certain path ... and you have alternatives ... then everything is fine ... no? O_o
Not every quest approach must be for everyone i say.

My theory is that the visitor is a manifestation of a leash that keeps ceremorphosis at bay. Is it of divine, netherese, or other origin is debatable, but I agree with Rag that it is hardly the embodiment of a tadpole. That's why I think it is hard in general to judge "evilness" of anything we are not sure about yet in the plot progression.

For me an example of "joining an evil cause" done right would be in Divinity Original Sin 2 (spoilers for that so don't read if you intend to play it at some point).

When it comes to Minthara however... I dare say it's just a badly written encounter in its current state that exists purely for the sake of being evil, since it goes against the purpose of the party's goal, does not progress the plot in any meaningful way nor establish any sort of meaningful incentive for joining her.

It feels awfully lackluster because there are no actual story related motives nor reasons whatsoever behind the decision to join her unless you really just want to go on a senseless murder spree and then do some more by killing her too.

Even if we count deep-undercover infiltration as a story reason, it is a terribly weak foundation for the premise since we are already able to fully infiltrate every single layer of the Absolute's army. Even Minthara and Nere end up being easily deceived as long as we pretend we are following the Absolute. So what is the purpose of joining her and acting like we're undercover when we already are doing that without an issue. So once again.. the choice is just there for the sake of being evil without any meaningful substance.

So it's no wonder that so many players do not care about the evil path when it severely lacks substance. The actual reasons, incentive, potential gain and most of all motive to join Minthara on the raid are not there. It only exists so the player can be evil for the sake of being evil and nothing more.

Story does not progress any further than what we already know we should be doing (which is getting to Moonrise), not to mention we lose everything and gain nothing by it. We lose the entire Grove and the entire Goblin camp... for what. A hint to look for a Drow Orc, who we would without a doubt come across on our path to Moonrise if we go above the surface.

This! This right here! You've hit the nail on the head. Thank you. This is what I'm talking about when I say, "There are too many red flags." I can't say it better. I tried playing an evil Drow Sorcerer Charlatan who was pretending to play all sides against one another, and joining the Absolute just seemed so stupid. It was like, "Duh, Moron. Why are you doing this? Minthara's like, "Go to the Absolute and all will be made clear," but you know if you set foot in Moonrise they're just going to kill you. It's like the Gith Patrol. You KNOW if you go there and let them know you have a tadpole in your head, they're going to crush your skull open and stomp on the tadpole. You don't KNOW for sure, but you KNOW in your gut it's true. So why would you join the Absolute when you KNOW in your gut she's just going to off you? Best to take your chances with Halsin." And then, to back it up, Minthara tries to kill you. Hmmm....

What is all this nuanced smart evil people are talking about?

What is evil?

The dictionary defines it as: profoundly immoral and wicked.

How are you wanting to play evil? What's your ideal "evil game" scenario?

It was much simpler for me to be motivated in joining the raid. I jumped through the spider pit into the underdark first, then went to grymforge, found Nere, who told me (well, his corpse told me) that Minthara knows a way to the Moonrise Towers. Therefore I went to the camp and made a deal with her: I help with the raid, she helps with the passage. She later turned on me and I bashed her head. Who is evil here and who is not?

I am evil from the tieflings' perspective.
I am not evil from my perspective.
I am evil from Minthara's perspective, but for the whole different reason of being a problem to the Absolute, which she is devoted to.

There is no thing like evil in a vacuum, there is no universal definition of evil. It is about how your character or another character perceive themselves. This is up to you to decide. Allignment system is not a universal solution to building and progressing your character. Also it does not oblige you to self identify yourself as evil, neutral or good. It does not oblige your character to act evil if he is evil in alignment. This is the definition of character development. In the end the topic is not about an evil path, but about more options to choose from, to properly develop your character's personality, in a way that will feel organic to a player. So there is no real need to evaluate the evilness of things.

Wich is?

And siding with Halsin progress the plot in what meaningful way?

Just bcs you dont have reason to do something, doesnt mean that there isnt one for anybody ...

But anyway as stated thousand times before:
- Astarion dont want to remove tadpole ... for him, cult is best bet ... your character can simply see it simmilar.
- If you play any Evil race, both Druids and Tieflings in the grove dont really treat you respectfully ... more like other way around, so simple revenge can be your reason.
- If you play Drow Male, and talk to dead True Souls Drow Males ... you will find out that in the cult of the Absolute Males are equal ... wich is something your character can greatly desire.
- Obviously any cult that have lots of followers have lots of potential power ... power your character can try to get for himself.
- Since nobody from the cult is turning, nor even know about tadpoles ... you can easily come to conclusion that they (read as their leaders) must know something about them ... therefore the best way to gain their secret, is to join them at least for a while.

And many more ... i shall wait if at least some of theese will get through.

This is like saying you dont need (fake)ID to enter strip club ... bcs you allready managed to enter porn sides by simply clicking on "yes" when it asked if you are adult.

Why would Minthara or Nere question your affiliation?
Either you speak truth ... and you belong to them.
Or you lie ... but try hard to seem like belonging to them, therefore you are usefull and expendable tool.

Also both of them are quite certain of their own power, and their own forces that are in both cases all around greatly outnumber your silly party of 4 ...

---

This is actualy good example.

Bcs as we know ... if you play your cards right, they dont just "not kill you" ... wich is also possible and not even that hard actualy, you simply cant go to them saying: "Hows hanging fellas, wanna hear something cool? I have your mortal enemy larva in my head!"
But if you play your cards REALLY right, they end up dead and you get all the benefits.

Thats why.

Actually there is, since DnD follows manichean rules. According to Wikipedia, DnD evil is "[...] harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master."

I think a more free form RPG might suit you better.

Well, the game *does* present it as a path though, doesn't it? The choice between siding with the goblins and siding with the grove is pretty binary, and is treated as a major story milestone-it sets you on the next leg of your journey, as well as being a milestone for any romances you might be interested in. And yet this binary choice is *heavily* weighted in favor of helping the grove. The multitude of 'red flags' have been mentioned. From the first True soul we meet (edowin), you learn that the absolute's forces want you, specifically *you*....dead. It's also made abundantly clear early on that none of the true souls know about their 'condition' and thus couldn't give you any real insight on how to cure it when you talk to any of the three leaders in the goblin camp. Gut in particular will nearly kill you, can't be reasoned with, give you any help or guidance to your next goal (unlike Nettie, her counterpart in the grove). It's very clearly foreshadowed that getting the brand or using the tadpole powers is a bad idea long-term, and 'Daisy' is pretty obviously bad news. Basically the best you can get in EA is 'go to moonrise towers and hope things work out, even though your cover is blown after the raid on the grove.

When I have tried playing evil, I try to RP it as taking down the cult from the inside, sabotaging it and subverting its assets. But it really isn't great that way. The only 'allies' you can get so far are Minthara and Nere, who are mutually exclusive. Minthara will even tell you that she can't resist the Absolute if you ask her. There are not great options, to say the least. Meanwhile, directly fighting the absolute showers you with allies like the Myconids, Gnomes, Halsin, etc.... Notably those first two require Nere's death, which means you trade essentially three allies (Minthara, Myconids, Gnomes+Wroot) for Nere.

That's the sort of trend that holds true just about everywhere in terms of content playing an evil character in BG III. Go to the goblin camp and talk around. How many side quests did you pick up? Did you get any major ones like the Shadow Druid investigation? Any npcs who promise to meet you later on in the game so you can check in on your favorite ones? How about quest rewards? Workign for the druids and tieflings gives you all sorts of great stuff. Stuff you can't get by killing them. Unlike with the Absolute cultists+goblins, who give you nothing for helping them but are loaded down with extremely desirable magical items (again, Minthara and Nere in particular have some great stuff) How many of those npcs mentioned earlier will join you as camp followers? (none).

Etc Etc.

There are warning 'flags' everywhere that the absolute can't really help you. They give you no loot, no rewards. You don't gain any allies, no sidequests to speak of, etc. Arguably you sabotage yourself, since you lose companions and romance options, kill off your most promising leads (Halsin etc) while gaining no real allies to speak of and it's revealed that your cover is blown right after the goblin party. Hell, even Volo tells you he's going to go around telling everyone that you are an evil murderer. Siding with the goblins is just screwing yourself over as they are written right now, and IMO that's more than a fair target of criticism.