|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
Someone voicing a one line postive opinion leading to an entiere page of encyclopedic posts about why he is factually wrong, now this is a Larian forum moment. Hahaha, so true!
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
|
Someone voicing a one line postive opinion leading to an entiere page of encyclopedic posts about why he is factually wrong, now this is a Larian forum moment. We can all agree it isn't constructive in the slightest, yes?
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
We can all agree it isn't constructive in the slightest, yes? What?? Icelyn just told she/he liked a thing. What do you want to be constructive? Voting using a poll is also not "constructive", in terms of expressing one's opinion, but data gathered from a poll is valuable. Consider her 5 cent to be a poll vote.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
It's not wrong to find something (that someone else finds fun) wrong. This is excelent point! Agree 100%! So its not wrong if Zerubbabel tells people that s/he finds their behavior bad ... right?
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
|
We can all agree it isn't constructive in the slightest, yes? What?? Icelyn just told she/he liked a thing. What do you want to be constructive? Voting using a poll is also not "constructive", in terms of expressing one's opinion, but data gathered from a poll is valuable. Consider her 5 cent to be a poll vote. It's an understanding most of us learned early on in school. Both "I like this." and " I hate this." do not count as constructive criticism. Is every comment here required to be constructive? No, of course not. However...we should be honest about the nature of commentary.
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
|
So its not wrong if Zerubbabel tells people that s/he finds their behavior bad ... right? An amusing question coming from a guy who told at least two people on these boards (including yours truly) that they should participate in activities that would result in their deaths. I may get passionate about this hobby, but, when it comes to disagreements over game design, I don't suggest extreme actions that are suicidal.
|
|
|
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
|
The "Spoilers" are my attempt at respecting the context and relevance of the initial thread, "What's your biggest fear about the final BG3 release?" Because this is a forum for a video game, but I am still providing my two cents. But... This: >some constructive positivity ? What's so constructive about "I love casting 2 spells in the same turn!"? What's actually constructive is pointing out that WotC themselves explicitly said that GMs should be VERY cautious when giving playes an oppurtunity to cast 2 non-cantrip spells in one turn and that general rules do not allow it for a very good reason.
>someone having a different opinion on what makes something fun is not a personal slight against you people It depends. All in all, this is a game in development and feedback might yet affect the final product. So in some sense those BAD and WRONG opinions affect all. Also, some people condider heroin fun. Some consider kicking homeless cats fun. And? It's not wrong to find something (that someone else finds fun) wrong.
>I think you shouldn't be on forums I think you shouldn't be on the forums.
>I do enjoy praising the chain system as a means of summoning him, though So you post disingenious oponions to stir people. You're a troll. This isn't a coherent argument. First, WOTC aren't gods. What's constructive about saying, "I like X, Y, or Z" is that it represents a dataset of players that have enjoyed a particular mechanic, of which Icelyn is a small blip, not the elected representative. This point is as inane as rulebook-thumping to a DM in a tabletop setting saying, "Buh-Buh-Buh the RULEBOOK SAYS." When WOTC maintains that the DM is the final arbiter of the game. They say you need to be super-duper careful when giving people two spells? So what? Again, not gods, and anyone can intuit what makes something fun or not fun on their own. And the same point has been made over and over again. "I appeal to third party, so my tastes are more objective and better than yours." IT SOUNDS RIDICULOUS. At least other people on this thread are making arguments about WHY WOTC sets it up that way. This is just an appeal to corporate authority veiled as "But they're like the devs," except they're not, Larian is. I don't know how to explain to you that taking pleasure in heroin and kicking cats is not comparable to enjoying a mechanic in a video game. And that it's really hard to frame a coherent argument in which you can prove that someone's opinion or taste of cRPG/TTRPG is "BAD" or "WRONG" or "HARMFUL TO EVERYONE WHO BOUGHT THE GAME." Icelyn's money is worth just as much as your money. Icelyn paid just as much as you did. Icelyn probably plays the game as much as you do. I don't know what world that you live in where you imagine someone's idiosyncratic, taste-based opinion of a multifaceted piece of media being voiced is comparable in harming a group to crossing a picket line, or comparable to the danger of heroin. It's hyperbolic and hysterical. It also erroneously imagines that Larian developers don't have their own brain and their own tastes and that they are somehow incapable of parsing through many people's tastes to make a product. Because God forbid our feedback be too "wrong" or "bad" or confusing for them. You know, the people who have been making video games for decades. You have noticed that Larian can still actively ignore the things the community gives heavy feedback to, right? They're in the drivers seat, not the forum posters. Finally, finding Tuco's passion about the chain system to be endearing so that I sometimes mention it as a joke is not being a troll. It's called being human. You should try it. I did find the "no u" part of the post to be amusing though. Clearly touched an emotional nerve without touching the intellectual one. Edit: On the matter of suicide because it somehow entered the discussion above... I am against anyone harming themselves in any capacity. I can't believe I have to write that out. Edit 2: I'M NOT EVEN IN FAVOR OF THE MULTI-CASTING IN A TURN, I just think the discourse surrounding someone else's idiosyncratic taste-based opinion veered into the realm of the unreasonable and unarguable. Edit 3: My statement in the previous post wasn't, "I hate Tuco and his opinions and talk about something he hates to get him riled up." My statement was designed to say, "Tuco frustrates me sometimes, but I still value his opinions on this forum and agree with his game philosophy for the most part. Also, I find his strong passion about the chain system to be so endearing that I mentioned it once as a joke." Edit 4: When I say I am trying to respect the context and relevance of the initial thread in using spoiler tags, what I mean is that I am voluntarily collapsing my posts because they are off-topic and I do not want to take up space or time from the people here for the thread. It is also my hope that by containing my forum-complaints within spoiler tags that I can keep the thread from getting locked for bickering. Because I respect the importance of the topic and people's interest in it. And right to contribute to it.
Last edited by Zerubbabel; 25/08/22 02:24 PM.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
|
It's so factually NOT true. First because we had a bunch of walls of text that were all about defending Icelyn's right to be the forum's titular airhead and I was (deservingly?) the target of the criticsm, so the very premise of the claim you are agreeing with is bullshit. Second, because she wasn't "criticized" (mostly by me) because of "positivity", to begin with, but for being scarily consistent across the years in her being in favor of ANY terrible idea a game designer may come up with. And consistently against anything that may add depth, immersion or a bit of challenge, too. I never made a secret to her that I think she's my personal ANTICHRIST of good game design, for the record. You guys are just slow to catch up with what the conversation was actually about, while conversely quick to make baseless assumptions on the untold implications. P.S. And how the fuck is snowram even blabbing about "positivity" to begin with? The almost totality of his post history is made out of "witty" poisonous one-liners against what other people wrote. Get the fuck out of here with the condescending tone, please.
Last edited by Tuco; 25/08/22 11:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
It's so factually NOT true. First because we had a bunch of walls of text that were all about defending Icelyn's right to be the forum's titular airhead and I was (deservingly?) the target of the criticsm, so the very premise of the claim you are agreeing with is bullshit. Second, because she wasn't "criticized" (mostly by me) because of "positivity", to begin with, but for being scarily consistent across the years in her being in favor of ANY terrible idea a game designer may come up with. And consistently against anything that may add depth, immersion or a bit of challenge, too. Man you really think you are a centre of the universe! I wasn't even thinking about you or any other user when I made this reply! I was agreeing with this part: Someone voicing a one line postive opinion leading to an entiere page of encyclopedic posts ...didn't even notice the second part, because the first was so true - it made me reply almost instantly! Sorry if I confused you! Second, because she wasn't "criticized" (mostly by me) because of "positivity", to begin with, but for being scarily consistent across the years in her being in favor of ANY terrible idea a game designer may come up with. You know those discussions where one flings a poop at the wall and one guy considers it a modern expressive art and the other says its just a piece of dung? And they both make this cry baby performance to prove something to each other? Except Icelyn didn't try to prove anything, so...
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
Get the fuck out of here with the condescending tone, please. Man, this is just extra. No need to be that rude.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
|
Man you really think you are a centre of the universe! I wasn't even thinking about you or any other user when I made this reply! I was agreeing with this part: ...didn't even notice the second part, because the first was so true - it made me reply almost instantly! Sorry if I confused you! So it's not about "me thinking I'm the center of the universe" (???). It's about how you struggle to keep up with the context of what was actually said. Ok.
Last edited by Tuco; 25/08/22 11:38 PM.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2022
|
So it's not about "me thinking I'm the center of the universe" (???). It's about how you struggle to keep up with the context of what was actually said. Ok. Well, no struggle to be honest, I didn't pay attention because I am not interested in drama and I am not interesting at belittling anyone Therefore I am not interested in prolonging a conversation with you either! I wasn't clear enough with my reply and you grabbed your opportunity to perform, as usual! That was a fine performance and I'll sleep better for it! Have a good night!
|
|
|
|
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
|
being scarily consistent across the years in her being in favor of ANY terrible idea a game designer may come up with. Tuco has a point; while I can't speak on the "years" bit, I have been here for close to a year and in that time I have noticed praise for virtually everything...even when a mechanic impedes the implementation of intuitive gameplay.
|
|
|
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
|
For the record, Tuco and Ragitsu,
I am in no way, shape, or form against your right to criticize Icelyn. Nine times out of ten, when it comes to qualitative mechanics in RPG systems, I am on your side of the argument. If you hate her approach to game philosophy, rip into it, please, by all means. If you think her views trivialize difficulty, say that. If you think her views encourage easy exploitation of any given mechanic, say that. I am completely in favor of qualitative debate, even the harshest and most vicious and most passionate kinds. I am not in favor of insults or namecalling based on people's opinions. That's it. If Icelyn is the Antichrist of your game philosophy, that's valid. But I would much rather a hundred posts explaining why you think that she's an Antichrist instead of a hundred posts (exaggerating for effect here) simply calling her the devil. And I would be happy to openly agree with either of you in the forum if you raised such points.
On people coming late to the discussion: Yes. I've been on the forum as a lurker for about a year, poster for about half. If it's been going on for longer than that, I imagine disagreeing with Icelyn all the time and thinking her points are harmful for the game would be very frustrating over time. I admit, I don't know the full history here, only what I assume to be most of it. That part's on me. I don't want everyone to be positive sunshine and rainbows. People who are mad that they aren't getting the experience they paid for in advance are allowed to voice their opinions. But insults (and really, specifically just the insults) get us nowhere and end up locking threads. I don't know about you guys, but I DON'T want this thread to be locked because I think people's most significant anxieties about the full release represent a VITAL FORM OF FEEDBACK. Perhaps some of the most important feedback as we reach late stages of development.
Edit: Added spoiler tags in response to Boblaw's correct concerns about drama getting the thread shut down. My goal is to say my two cents without derailing the thread. This is actually an important topic and I am not specifically trying to derail it. While I stand by what I said, I somewhat regret getting involved in the first place at this point and will certainly regret it if the thread gets shut down.
Last edited by Zerubbabel; 26/08/22 02:44 AM.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
|
Good lord people, stop the drama. The mods are going to close this good thread. (please just remove the off-topic posts instead of nuking the whole thing)
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
|
Good lord people, stop the drama. The mods are going to close this good thread. (please just remove the off-topic posts instead of nuking the whole thing) 100% agree. Icelyn made a comment and the whole thing blew up. Go fight on Steam or Reddit please. Icelyn is legit afraid of Larian ruining BG3 by changing the game. In some respects, I understand where she's coming from. Too harsh of restrictions and the game would suck. So her posting is actually legit part of the thread. She has said her biggest fear is that they'll basically screw up spellcasting based on the way she likes it - as is. I don't agree with her sentiments. I fear the opposite, but there's no need to fight about it or attack people on either side.
|
|
|
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
|
Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
|
A Broader Comment on Why this Thread is Important (And an Attempt to Return to Topic):
We are rapidly approaching release date. Much of the feedback in the early and middle stages concerned the removal and addition of features, the polishing of already established mechanics, and face-value feedback. We have been playing this game for two years. The people who have been playing this unfinished game for two years deserve to have their deepest anxieties about full release heard because it implicitly summarizes our greatest frustrations with the game experience while also providing feedback from the most devoted, critical, and gameplaying part of the fanbase. This group is most acquainted with the game while also having deep reservations on what it is going to take for the game to feel satisfying on release. This is what makes it important (and why drama ought not to be the end of this discussion).
You could preface the thread with, "After 2 years of playing the first Act, the playerbase finds the most significant obstacles or potential obstacles to enjoyment to be..." If that makes it more clear how important long-term anxieties are. I've noticed in this thread that when people talk about greatest fears (and the reddit thread!!!) that they don't list all the absurd and out-there ways the game could be bad. I think if Baldur's Gate 3 turned into a giant spider and ate my mother... that would be my literal greatest fear about the game. But people are really listing the deepest held anxieties about the game they've been playing for 2 years. This is like, "What is Larian doing that you think is almost inevitable, but completely ruins the game for you?" And getting that from the 2-year playerbase is essential. I don't know how Larian handles feedback, and I only know how to give feedback in academia, but if I were a game developer, I would be paying attention to the concerns in this thread specifically.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Sep 2017
|
Thanks for self-moderating guys. I appreciate your efforts in keeping things civil for everyone. Problem-users have been dealt with. I champion criticisms and concerns about BG3, just as much as all other preferences and opinions are valid in isolation as well. It's ok to have differing opinions without guns loaded and have some manners around discussing those disagreements. And echo chambers are bad, in either extreme direction - So hostility towards other people's opinions is generally not welcomed. Disagree and make points of why you disagree, but do so in a respectable manner and meet with some level of understanding. General basic social manners.
Edit: Just wanted to add my ball into the pool of fears:
The lack of "under the hood" ability to travel backwards across levels. "Reversal traversal", as I call it. Coming from the modding community, but also just for the average player, the ability to actually leave for example Baldur's Gate and come back to it later is... Well the lack of it is something that I think will feel sour to a lot of people - because of the nature of being a city and a place people are / will get attached to. Without reversal traversal, there's no reason to get invested in the city's anythings, player housing is out of the window, etc.
But more importantly, this being possible opens up a lot of doors for the modding community to add their own individual modules, campaigns and what not and attach it onto the main game if wanting to. This never really took off in Dos2 because of (apart from being a lot of work) having to compete with other creators due to how the engine works, so two different creators couldn't really both add new world content (land masses, areas) without closely collaborating and artificially expanding their mod's size, and a whole other basket of side-effects.
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I'll try to stay on topic too because this thread contains valuable feedback, it would be a shame to close it My single biggest fear with BG3 is if the party control system stays the same. I absolutely loathe the chain thing. I understand why it's there, that it's better for people who play with a controller or for multi-player. What I don't understand is why there's no alternative. I grew up playing BG2 and Starcraft and it's just much easier, less cumbersome, whatever synonym you wanna find to select your party by "boxing" with the mouse. I can deal with a lot of slightly disappointing things regarding story and combat but if the game just doesn't *play* well for 80+ hours, it' s a huge no. Another one is that they will keep all the junk that there is in the game right now. I feel it's improved when they introduced the "you need to eat food at camp" update but there still so many useless stuff lying around: knives, forks, plates, empty chests, etc. With the inventory management being what it is, I fear it's going to be really tedious the more you progress in the game. I also fear that they will give in to some easy and out of place fan service. I really really really don't want to see Minsc in BG3 or any BG2 companion for that matter. Let them stay dead as they should, they are still available in those games. Unless they come up with a well thought out, coherent, that makes sense within the lore justification but I fail to see how that's possible.
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: May 2019
|
But more importantly, this being possible opens up a lot of doors for the modding community to add their own individual modules, campaigns and what not and attach it onto the main game if wanting to. This never really took off in Dos2 because of (apart from being a lot of work) having to compete with other creators due to how the engine works, so two different creators couldn't really both add new world content (land masses, areas) without closely collaborating and artificially expanding their mod's size, and a whole other basket of side-effects. Well for me, a huge *fear* about the game has to do with precisely this: leaving so much of the game to modders to "fix." I am not at all modding-savvy, and don't even have a Nexus Mods account. For me, first of all finding the mods, then downloading them, then adding them to the game using some third-party mod-manager, and then getting everything to work together without any problems or conflicts ... this is extremely daunting and quite frankly scary. So if mods are how things are going to get addressed in BG3, and it absolutely should *not* be that way to begin with for any game, then the #1 thing I want and need in BG3 is a built-in mod-managing system.
|
|
|
|
|