Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General A Theory

I think the dream persona is the sentience within the artifact that Shadowheart carries.

I mentioned this in another thread. Someone replied:


This is a fair question. I was about to respond to it in the other thread when I realized that it was ultimately off topic. Thus, I'm making this thread so as to not derail the other.

To respond:

It's known that the Children of Gith eventually broke free of the illithids by developing psionic powers of their own. It's often been said in lore that they got their powers after suffering through generations of servitude to the mind flayers.

Meaning their powers resulted from the powers of the illithid.

I'd like to quote a section of a book that can be found in BG3. Specifically, a section of the Oral Histories book on the Gith and Mind Flayers.

The end portion is what I'm referencing. It reads:


I suggest that the reckoning mentioned in this passage came from the same source that powers the artifact. The unknown power that eventually gave the Gith their freedom... came from the artifact. Or rather, from the sentience within the artifact.

It allowed the Gith to develop psionic powers that gave them the strength to fight back.

I think the dream persona is using the tadpole to connect with Tav and the companions. Allowing them to use the psionic power of the illithids to their advantage. In fact, swelling the tadpole with more power than it ought to have.

I further suggest that not using the tadpole power is a mistake.

*

There's also an illithid tablet on the Nautiloid that, when read, says something like: "Images flash through your mind. A brain, a githyanki warrior, and centuries of darkness."

I think this has something to do with the sentience trapped within the artifact.

*

Anyway, just a theory.

I'm glad you made this thread as your theory was one of the best I heard so far for the Dreamer.

As far as the Illithid tadpole goes and how the Dreamer relates to it, I look at it like this:

• The tadpole is nothing more than just a regular mindflayer parasite. What makes it special is that it's enveloped in Netherese stasis to prevent it from accomplishing ceremorphosis and make the host stronger.
• The Illithid tadpole is basically acting as a transceiver sending out telepathic signals at all times, but also receiving them.
• At the start of the game this signal is incredibly weak and practically non-existent, but gets stronger through regular use.
• The Dreamer contacts us aboard the Nautiloid and is searching for this signal until it eventually manages to catch this weak signal to utter one sentence; "Where are you?".
• Eventually once the signal becomes strong enough, the Dreamer is now able to partially connect to that signal and communicate with us exclusively through dreams when our consciousness is at its lowest.
• Once that signal gets even stronger, the Dreamer is able to communicate even without the dreams, such as telling us; "We are loved" during the day.
• So the Dreamer now basically is able to hijack the tadpole signal for its own purposes of us becoming its Chosen.

If the Dreamer truly is the influence jailed within the artefact (because it is locked), it would make sense why it is able to not only communicate with us through dreams, but also overpower the tadpole and keep it at bay while allowing us to tap into its beneficial powers. Because this influence also saved us from the fall from the Nautiloid and more importantly literally came to us to repel the Absolute's overpowering influence without breaking a sweat, which is far stronger than the tadpole ever could be.

Also an interesting thing is that overusing the tadpole we get the tag [True Soul], however no matter whether or not we use the tadpole, the Absolute's influence over us is equally overpowering in both cases. The only one that gains a stronger connection with us is the Dreamer, whom the cultists and True Souls cannot hear nor see.

As far as the artefact though, the prism is locked. So the Githyanki runes are probably magical enslavement runes for the whole purpose of enslaving the presence within it to the object, which we might possibly break out in Baldur's Gate with the help of Shar followers and then get as a companion (which we customize at the start of the game).

One of the possibilities could be that the tadpole might actually never leave our head. But instead it may become a merged part of us through the help of the Dreamer and we fully become the Dreamer's Chosen, as was intended.

What we know about the artifact: It was in the possession of the Gith, it was stolen by the Sharrans, it has Gith writing on its surface, It has a will of it's own, it is referred to as a weapon by the Gith and the Absolute

What we know about Daisy: We're first asked to describe 'her' after being implanted on the Nautiloid, she wants BG and the Sword Coast to burn, our connection to her grows clearer as we use the tadpole's powers

So there does seem to be some crossover here, It's possible the Artifact is a doomsday weapon, which might be why the Sharrans are interested in it.
It does seem to be sentient...All of this talk about the origins of the Gith has me thinking about Torment, where you can create a living apocalypse weapon, but that might be a little far fetched.

That's a good point about how the true-souls can't sense the artifact, kind of like the One Ring, if its aims correlated with the Absolute's, you'd imagine it might try and sabotage you at some point.

Interesting. Not something that had occurred to me, but you could be on to something


I’m not sure this follows, though. Even if the dream persona is linked to the artifact and is opposed to the illithids, that doesn’t mean it’s benign. It could be that, in the end, the story is about us finding some sort of accommodation with the dream persona/weapon to allow us to defeat the illithids/Absolute. But welcoming its influence with open arms still isn’t necessarily a great idea.

I still think it doesn't make sense because the dream lover is trying to tempt you to become the leader of his or her army and use your powers to become truly great and take over Baldur's Gate. This seems more like the absolute. Not only that but the more you use the powers that the dream lover gives you, the more you start to do weird transformations in Camp. It just really doesn't seem like the weapon is the dream lover to me.

May or may not be relevant, but I keep forgetting to check this in the vision you get when entering the goblin camp. Is one of the three chosen you see in that vision the same fighter that you stab in one of the dream sequences?

Nah that's just a Balduran guard trying to look like an Oblivion guard

Those in the vision are the three Chosen Drows of the Absolute, one of them is known as the General and he is at Moonrise Towers. The location of the other two are unknown.

I am guessing that the vision in which we see Baldur's Gate burning may not be by our hand. I would not be surprised if the Absolute infiltrated the city to destroy it from within. For all we know, that guard that attacked us may as well be an Absolute cultist working for the Absolute. Lovely thing about the Mysterious Guest is that their visions and dream sequences are indeed mysterious. And I would really hate it if it turned out to be just a classical Disney villain that's evil just for the sake of evil.

Definitely radiates the whole "I'm mysterious and most likely evil" vibe, but I really think it will be the opposite. I am of belief that the vision is just a smokescreen that makes us think we're about to drench the city in blood and we probably may, but in Absolute's army blood. Because she is building an actual army and Kagha mentions that there is an army amassing on the Sword Coast. So we probably will be fighting in the streets of Baldur's Gate to protect it from the Absolute's army.


I highly doubt it is the Absolute as it makes her seem terribly bipolar if that was the case. We experience the Absolute's voice and her immense power over the mind on the bridge. If it truly was her, then she'd have no trouble just overpowering us from the moment we stepped onto land.

One thing that is very interesting is that when we are asleep, something keeps warning us of threats. This is seen when Astarion tries to bite us during our sleep and when Minthara tries to stab us. In both cases the Narrator mentions that something within us is warning us of danger and then wakes us up. I do not think it's the tadpole and the only other resident in our head is the Dreamer, who feels very insulted and annoyed if you imply they're trying to harm you in any way.

If anything, I'm absolutely certain that the Absolute, the tadpole and the Dreamer are three different entities. The Absolute doesn't care one bit about us nor wants us, all she wants is the weapon which is able to go against her. The Dreamer wants us to become something greater. And the tadpole just wants to transform. But all three are at each other's necks.

Yes, I wondered if the vision was meant to have been of me defeating one of the Absolute’s chosen. I’ve just checked on YouTube and you only see them in silhouette. The dream figure could at a stretch be one of them (presumably the General) as the armour shape is similar, though in the vision the helmet has a plume. Could mean that they’re not the same person, or just that the art in the vision isn’t yet perfectly matched by in-game assets.

Though possibly there’s something else about the armour that proves it’s someone from Baldur’s Gate, or something’s been data-mined? Though it would be a bit lame if it were just a random guard in the dream. I hope it’s an actual significant character you get to meet.

(Duke Ravenguard? Though would he be wearing Flaming Fist armour? I don’t think you can see the face clearly enough to draw any definitive conclusions from that.)

EDIT: Apologies that this is a bit of a tangent. I was just thinking that if we knew who that person was it might help shed some light on who the dreamer is.

I just think it's a regular Balduran guard to illustrate we are fighting the city guards and then causing the city to fall once we're the Dreamer's chosen, not meant to be anyone special. As I don't think it would be serving the story any good by showing us killing the Drows or other True Souls within the dreams, as the Dreamer sequences seem to be intentionally mysterious and misleading into making us believe they're just a classical Disney villain on the Absolute's side.

I am of belief there is more to the Dreamer than just black and white, good and evil. Especially because we get to customize the Dreamer, so it gives me belief they have a far more complex role to play than what the visions imply. Otherwise they could have just made a specific appearance for the Dreamer if their role was small or exclusive only to the evil side.

But it doesn't fit. You use tadpole powers. You dream the dream lover. She gives you greater tadpole powers. You use them. She returns in your dreams and increases your transformation. You are gaining more illilthid powers. She promises you the ability to rule at her side. All of it is illithid based. It's not gith. You are becoming a very powerful true soul.

I don't know. It would be kinda weird to be the weapon. That would mean that a gith weapon was using mind flayer powers, harnessing them and honing them. Wouldn’t that be an abomination to them?

True, by using the tadpole we also get the Dreamer. And yet the tadpole keeps trying to rip her apart from the very first dream sequence. And in the third dream we get to;

• Pass a Charisma check to resist both the Dreamer and the tadpole
• Put our trust in the Dreamer
• Give into the tadpole's rage and attack the Dreamer

One important thing to note is that we do get the first sign of ceremorphosis just before we meet the Dreamer. And then the next morning we are entirely cured and strong with new powers. Whoever the Dreamer might be is clearly powerful enough to harness the tadpole in our heads and give us powers while keeping the ceremorphosis at bay, which is why the tadpole wants to rip her apart so badly.

As for the weapon, the Githyanki box is just a magically sealed container for whatever is inside it because;

• Passing the Intelligence check makes our character sense something inside the box.
• Shadowheart keeps trying to open it all the time in the background and consistently fails
• Trying to get rid of it will make it electrify you so it shows signs of sentience and even intelligence

So whatever or whoever is inside the box strictly wants just us and nobody else, so it isn't implied that the weapon is of Githyanki origin, only the box is.

And an interesting thing Shadowheart mentions is that the voice told her she will be "a beautiful weapon".

Are all the powers necessarily illithid or tadpole related? I had always assumed that they were, and certainly the dialogue options specifically say “illithid” but perhaps it’s more complex than that. Gith also use psionics, or perhaps the sentience in the box is something else entirely that nevertheless can manipulate illithid-like powers. We don’t know that the gith created what’s inside the box, even if they did create the box itself.

I agree not everything perfectly fits the idea that the dreamer is related to the box, but we know so little about it that those could still be explained away. As could potentially the things that don’t fit about the dreamer being on the side of the Absolute, such as the fact the tone of the dreams is entirely different from the vision of the Absolute, that the box responds to that vision but not the dreams, and that in that vision the voice is asking for help finding the weapon which the dreamer doesn’t ask about.

It still feels as though there are loads of ways this can go, and it’s fun to speculate.

EDIT: By the way, I don’t think that using the tadpole, assuming that’s what we’re doing, is *necessarily* what the Absolute would want, either. There’s presumably a reason why the cult have been set to kill survivors from the ship. Perhaps they actually don’t want people going around using the powers without having completed the full process that involves forgetting about the tadpole.

EDIT 2 (ANOTHER QUESTION): By the way, do we think that the vision of the Absolute as we enter the goblin camp is targeted specifically to us, or is it being broadcast to all True Souls and we happen to get caught up?

Excellent observation.


I don't think it's off topic at all. It's a perfectly valid question that fits the theme of the thread, which is exploring theories about what's going on. Honestly, I've wondered who that individual is several times myself, and I can't help but notice the similarity in the armor design. Still, I think it's too early to tell.


Speaking of hunting down the survivors to kill them...

Something I always wonder about when I'm watching the intro--it almost looks like the red dragons attacking the ship are trying to kill the prisoners in the pods more than anything else.

Notice the way the dragon breathes fire toward Laezel in the chamber in the scene where the flames move in slow motion. Sure, maybe the dragons are just attacking any and everything, but still, it stands out to me, almost as if the dragon is targeting the companions.

And the same thing happens when the nerves of the transponder are finally connected. The dragon pokes his head in, stares at you and then lets loose with the fire. Even if the dragon is staring straight at Laezel, a githyanki.

Just a thought, but I sometimes wonder if it's not the fabled Gith inside the box.

Vlaakith only rules because Gith disappeared after going to make a deal with Tiamat. Is it possible that the lich queen has had the true githyanki leader imprisoned in the box the whole time?

Again, I think of the tablet on the illithid ship: "Images flash through your mind. A brain. A githyanki warrior. And centuries of darkness."

Is the warrior in question Gith? Are the centuries of darkness talking about being imprisoned within the box?

Ooh! I don’t know, but that’s another really fun idea to ponder on.

Kinda doubt because if it is in fact an Infernal Puzzle Box, then the box doesn't work like a Tardis (Bigger on the inside, Doctor Who), and originates from the Nine Hells. They're used to safeguard diabolical contracts between a devil and a mortal. Look up its full description if you'd like some material to enjoy speculating on. I find the more interesting question to be why does Shadowheart have it, seemingly prior to ending up on the Nautiloid? Suggests she's been to the Nine Hells before or directly/indirectly received/stolen it from someone who was.

Check this little nugget and its comments for some more speculative food for thought ☺️

I'm not sure why a contract would have a sentience of its own. The box expresses a desire to remain with the characters. It doesn't want to fall into the gith patrol hands any more than it wants to be taken by the Absolute, which the narrator tells us in the scene with the githyanki.

Regarding the infernal puzzle box possibility... maybe. I mean, it certainly seems similar'ish in nature, but it's worth noting that it's covered in gith script as opposed to infernal.

As to whether or not it's bigger on the inside: I don't know. But that aside, when we consider something like Dhourn's memory crystal, it's apparent that Larian is willing to slightly change things. In the adventure Out of the Abyss, they are called Stonespeaker Crystals and have the ability to offer visions of the past, present, and future.

I didnt want to go on with this on that another threat ...
But here i can! <3

How (im)possible it seems to you that this is only coincidence?
Things that happens on same time dont necesarily need to relate each other ...

I would say it is possible that Larian may decided to cleverly tie this events together to raise our suspicion towards this dream person.

And therefore i would like to present another (even tho really wild) theory:
There are 3 figures ... Artefact, the Absolute AND Dream person ...

Aswell as there is Dead 3
Aswell as there are 3 generals
Aswell as there are 3 basic alignments

The absolute presents path of Evil ...
Artefact (maybe?) presents path of Good ...
And our Dream Person offers Neutral (our own) path ...

Just wild speculation, have basicaly nothing to support it, except holes that are in presuming Dream Person belongs to any other side.

I can answer that!

Bcs Tiamat is evil b...(how do you call female from a dragon?) and Gith (Githyanki leader who went to negotiate with her) actualy never returned from that meeting ...
There are some wild theories that her consciousness, essence, or being in general is actualy trapped inside the box by Tiamat, as part of her pact made in fact with Vlaakith who wanted to rule instead of Gith but had no legit was to get rid of her.

The only problem with this theory is that in dataminded stuff things that seems to be reffering to the box are reffering to it as a Male ... but Gith was a female. O_o
But that can aswell be just misstake on Larian side.

Yes, I’d also assumed that the fact that the script was gith rather than infernal meant it wasn’t an infernal puzzle box, though I guess that might be explained and I can see there might be similarities.

But I agree that the sentience of the box implies there’s more in it than a contract. I’m not sure how big it would need to be to contain a consciousness or prison pocket dimension. Or possibly it is an infernal puzzle box containing a contract, but has a connection to a sentience that’s located elsewhere.

I had also assumed that Shadowheart’s secret mission was to steal the box from the gith (perhaps for Shar as a means of defeating the Absolute from whom I assume she’d not appreciate competition). But again, there are many more possibilities here!

EDIT: Of course, the box is also referred to as a “weapon” by both the Absolute and the githyanki dragon rider, at least I assume they’re referring to the box. I wonder in what sense a prison or contract could be a weapon? Of course, people who call it that might be misled or misleading, and I can think of possible ways those things *might* be weaponised.

Ok. So, if I'm understanding the theory correctly, the Gith box contains/has imprisoned the dream lover who still can influence things outside the box. S/he is triggered if you use illithid powers because s/he is attempting to help you control them - trying to use you for their own purposes and trying to turn you into a powerful weapon against his/her enemies, using the tadpole powers against those who gave them to you. The Absolute is threatened by it because s/he can actually help True Souls control their powers and rebel against the Absolute.

Hmmm. Maybe.

Here's another thought then. What if the entity in the box is Bhaal? Now wouldn't that be a twist? Bhaal was a man-whore who went around sleeping with lots of people. I'm sure he wouldn't bat an eye to use a Dream Lover persona to try to tempt someone. The Dream Lover has Baldur's Gate in mind for conquest and wants you to be a powerful weapon of mass destruction.

And if the Absolute has somehow stolen the Dead Three portfolios - using their symbol - Bhaal would certainly hate the Absolute and want to get his godhood back.

This would also explain why the box is SO vital to Larian's story.

I'm not sure it is because of what the book JAndK mentioned tells about the origins of the Githyanki:



This event occurred thousands and thousands of years before and it mentions whatever is locked inside the Githyanki box. It broke them free of the Mindflayer influence, same as it broke us free of the Absolute's influence. Meanwhile wasn't Bhaal a mortal several thousands years later who then became a God and tried to revive himself several times, so the timeline doesn't match up with the Githyanki uprising.

My theory is that whoever or whatever this being in the book was, it was not originally trapped in a Githyanki magical box. Instead after the uprising, considering how egotistic Githyanki are, they turned upon the being and entrapped it with magical Githyanki runes inside the box. To ensure if the Mindflayer threat ever arises they could always use its psyonic powers against them, which is why they value it so tremendously that they'd go against Vlaakith's own children. It's quite literally the key to their freedom as a race.

Which directly correlates to the reason why the Absolute wants the weapon so badly and why the Gith want it so badly too. And why the weapon itself wants neither the Githyanki nor the Absolute, just us. I believe Queen Vlaakith is the only one who knows exactly the true origin of the being inside the box and why she ordered her children to find it at any cost, even if it means killing her own children in the process... something that Lae'zel finds inconceivable.

Also the dead Mindflayer in the Shattered Sanctum shows us visions of thousands of Nautiloids pouring out of the void if they obtain the box, which to me implies that the Absolute's goal is to bring a new and improved Illithid Empire back into the food chain. And they may as well accomplish that if they manage to seize the only thing that defeated them thousands of years ago and kept them at bay since then.


As for why the artefact and the Dreamer seem related:

• Both seem to be handling Illithid telepathy with ease
• Both seem to be beings of pure psyonic energy
• Both are trying to protect us (the Dreamer cures us of the first stage of ceremorphosis and the box saves us from the Absolute)
• We are not able to get rid of either (the Dreamer is always there from the very beginning just like the artefact)
• We are saved from falling from the Nautiloid
• The artefact is referred to as "the weapon", but the voice itself tells Shadowheart that she will become "a beautiful weapon"

So if the Dreamer is the being locked inside the Githyanki box for thousands and thousands of years, who we then break free in Baldur's Gate, the weapon now becomes a free being who I presume would likely merge with us to share in its power. And now "the weapon" itself is gone and we become "a beautiful weapon". Would be quite poetic.

And by doing so, the dreams do not stop, but now the Dreamer is a part of us permanently and always with us. Which would then also justify why we get to customize our Dreamer. I think it is meant to be with us the whole way through the game.

I wasn't totally serious about Bhaal. I just threw that out there.

Still. You guys make some interesting points. It has me wondering now.

I think your theory is correct, and this idea is what convinced me. It totally fits with Larian's approach to things. In DOS you kept getting the source power from the gods. The powers given by the dream are similar (like many other similarities between DOS 2 and BG3 stories). I suspect in further acts characters will get more powers which also fits with Larian's habit of giving all classes magical powers. They wouldn't give you those powers and then penalize the player for using them. Its not their style.

Imagine playing through the entire game without using the Illithid believing that the Dreamer is trying to harm us, only to find ourselves then terribly outmatched and outpowered in front of the Absolute's overwhelming influence, exactly because our Dreamer is so weak and powerless.

Would be quite funny and the type of prolonged hinted switcheroo I'd expect from Larian.

At that point we wouldn't be role-playing though, they'd design an entire feature JUST around trying to trick the players. Everything we know is screaming that "tadpole = bad", and the powers are awesome, but taking away our humanity. If you play the game like that, role-playing and then in the final act "lul, j/k, the tadpole is good, you're fucked", it would make all our decisions seem completely fake, and take all control away from the player imo.

I agree, they will make it obvious well before the end that the Dreamer powers are benevolent.

I meant that mostly as a joke. Naturally they aren't making a feature just for the sake of tricking a player and doing some shallow plot twist to subvert expectations that comes out of nowhere. They however do not do black and white Disney type stories where the villain is a villain just for the sake of being a villain. The stories and outcomes are usually gray and obstructed with an incredible amount of subtle hints and clues that a player might pick up on by paying attention to all the details.

We know the tadpole is bad. We don't know whether the Dreamer is bad, though I personally think they aren't exactly because the dreams seem to be misleading into making us believe they are and the tadpole wants to murder the Dreamer at every single chance it gets. so if the murder monster that acts purely on instinct wants to kill the Dreamer so badly, then the enemy of my enemy is my friend I suppose.

And it seems likely to be due to all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

So I don't think it isn't roleplay, because it is. You're roleplaying based on what you perceive as the right thing to do in a given situation. But it may not be so black and white as it seems to be and knowing Larian games it usually isn't because hints and clues are all over the place foreshadowing such things from the very start of the game. So it is roleplay based on your own decision on how you perceive a situation.

It is incredibly important to not separate the Dreamer and the tadpole, but also to not put them in the same basket. Because the tadpole grows yes... but so does the Dreamer. Which is evident just before the first dream. We go through the first sign of ceremorphosis and then are cured immediately the next morning by none other than our Dreamer.

That right there should be proof that not everything is black and white as it seems. So it isn't like it will come out of the blue, the hints and subtle clues are all over the place and it is precisely because of them that we are having such an interesting discussion here. Without all these subtle hints and clues this discussion wouldn't exist ^^


For example, in Divinity Original Sin 2;

An issue I have is, if you don't go near the tadpole (tadpole=bad), then you NEVER have any connection with the dreamer. I've never used the tadpole and my character doesn't even know a dreamer exists. If the dreamer is going to play such a huge role, they REALLY need to find a way to have the dreamer be introduced if you're not using the tadpole. It's just bizarre that the entire first act can happen without you ever meeting something so integral to the game's plot.

Very true. That is what birthed this discussion in the first place which originated in a thread wanting to discourage people from resting, where all of these scenes are found.

I played my first story as any sane person would think they should. Avoid resting and avoid the tadpole at any costs. And I did just that and missed so much of the meaningful story and content because of it. It was terrible and I found the story awfully shallow and disappointing because of it. Only by using the tadpole and excessively resting have I then noticed how much I actually missed out on the story, it's insane.

However it isn't true that by not using the tadpole we do not have any connection with the Dreamer. We are supposed to hear the Dreamer on the Nautiloid and even have a dream sequence at the very start of the game supposedly, however it isn't implemented into the EA yet.

Because one of the lines when talking to Shadowheart is; "Is this the same voice we heard on the Nautiloid?", implying that we hear the Dreamer from the very start. And Shadowheart mentions having the same dreams as us on the Nautiloid, implying we are supposed to start the game within a dream sequence first before we get out of our pod. But it's EA currently so we can't experience it.

The Dreamer is definitely there to be with us from the start no matter what.

My theory in such a situation if the player avoids the tadpole by all means is that the Dreamer will still appear later in ACT II once we unlock the Githyanki box. We cannot get rid of the Dreamer nor the Githyanki box, which makes me believe they are one and the same. The box being a physical manifestation of the Dreamer and the dreams being the psyonic manifestation.

I did this as well thinking I should be saving resources and stuff like that. Then I rerolled a little into Act 1 and started resting more because I realized I was missing a ton of stuff. I almost feel like I should be resting after every fight or something because if I don't - I might miss something.

Exactly my issue, but that's the thread this thread came from.

Some games, like the Souls games can get away with telling more of a hint of a story, and if you completely miss it, no one will blame you, it's that hidden sometimes. But with Baldur's Gate, we're expecting a VERY obvious story, and having it hidden just cannot happen. No matter what playstyle you're doing, the story should be somewhat in your face imo. I have to believe though that this will change, and that playing a certain style won't lock you out of 90% of the story.

I'm sure at Moonrise Towers we'll be hooked up to some machine where we duke it out with Daisy and the Tadpole in the mindscape. Or maybe we'll be hooked up to a machine that let's us enter the artifact, which will be a pocket-plane prison for some Ancient Power™ that everyone wants to get their hands on.

I was thinking at Moonrise we're going to have to make a definite choice. No middle ground. Either join the Absolute or reject him/her and side with the box. The box would be the "good" path and the Absolute would be the "evil" path.

Now, if Daisy is the being in the box, it won't really be join good or bad. It'll be more like join bad or more bad and hope to somehow stay good - is you're trying to be good - when all is said and done.

In some respects, this second potential makes more sense with the overall trilogy. After all, in 1 and 2, you are Bhaalspawn doing Bhaal's will by murdering lots of people, whether good or evil. You can't help it. You're being forced constantly into situations where you have to murder lots of people.

So having to choose between 2 evils would actually be kinda cool. Of course, I'm assuming Daisy is actually evil. She might not be. We might just perceive her as evil.

She seems pretty evil though.

I kind of hope not. I’d find it disappointing to have to lock myself into a path that early in the game. Particularly if it was something as black and white as an evil or good path. Hopefully the Larian writers will pull off something greyer and twistier.


Good point, and I hope we do get something of this mood from BG3 as well. Or at least that we are forced to compromise, pick the lesser of evils, or that some of the decisions we make with good intentions turn out badly and vice versa. I’d find that kind of tale more interesting, and I think there are some promising signs in EA.

In regards to your theory, Ethel mentions that the tadpole (not sure if this needs spoiler tag, just adding it in case). Is this then part of the original box/Gith's plan and function, or are we talking about someone tampering with both tadpole AND the box?

I'm still unsure if there is a direct connection between the artifact and the Mind-Flayers. It doesn't seem like they were aware of what they took when they captured Shadowheart, otherwise why let her keep it. It's also unclear to me if the Gith are aware of the Absolute either.
Then there are the references to Netherese Shadow Magic throughout the game. I don't really know enough about it to see any lore foreshadowing going on, but I have learned on the forum that the Shadow Weave and Shar are connected, which might bring in the artifact considering it was the Sharrans who wanted to steal it from the Gith.

I guess what that leaves for this theory, has there ever been a connection between the Gith and the Netherese empire or Shar?

Omeluum will also talk a bit about the magic keeping the tadpole in check, though I think he just calls it “strange”.

I don’t have a good theory of where it comes from, though the box is one possibility. I’m not sure what that would imply about the box’s nature.

Here's an interesting bit of information from Nere regarding the Absolute. I've posted the full conversation for anyone curious to read it, but I highlighted the important bits.

This conversation is gotten by letting him kill the Deep Gnomes and then join him in killing the Duergar too:



Which is interesting as the weapon does not seem to have just protected us from the Absolute's influence in in the Goblin Camp, but seems to have incapacitated her own influence for quite some time, similarly to what it did for the Githyanki thousands of years ago. Because if we tell him that we don't hear Her either, he will outright attack us as it is completely out of the ordinary not to be able to establish a connection with Her presence.

If we tell him that we do hear Her, he will just dismiss it, thinking it's him that's the problem and send us on our way.

I assume the Absolute would sense and recognize the weapon being used against Her and probably warn every True Soul in the land. Yet neither Minthara nor Nere are able to establish a connection with Her after we enter the Goblin Camp, because She is probably weakened or temporarily incapacitated. Minthara although claims that the Absolute wants us dead, is in fact not in direct connection with Her because if she is persuaded not to kill us, she states that the Absolute must have granted her power to spare us. So she is presuming that sparing us is the Absolute's will.

Probably when we get to Moonrise Towers, the General will also not be in direct communication with Her, but my guess is that halfway through the dialogue the Absolute will regain power and that's when things start getting wild there.


As for the Dreamer and its role through all of this, it's interesting that no matter whether or not we use the tadpole, it is always with us and always using the dreams to protect us:

Astarion bite scene


Minthara backstab scene


And this is where things go crazy.

Drows do not sleep. They instead enter a meditative trance. Yet in both the Astarion and Minthara scene, a Drow player is actually sleeping and experiencing deep dreams. And a Drow player can in fact ask the Dreamer how is it possible that we are dreaming, to which the Dreamer replies; "How far is the deepest trance away from sleep? I leave that answer to you darling".

So at the very start of the game, the Dreamer is only able to do the things it does exclusively when our consciousness is at its lowest. And even pull a Drow into deep sleep to communicate with us.

Which brings another interesting theory as to how it saved us from the Nautiloid.

During our entire fall, we were completely knocked out due to the piece of debris that smacked us against the head. And the Dreamer at the very start can only communicate with us when our consciousness is at the lowest. Exactly because we were unconscious, it was able to take over and save us from the fall. But at the very moment our player regains consciousness, the magic itself dissipates.

Coincidence? I think not. I think that specific moment feels incredibly deliberate.

Githyanki and Githzerai in Dungeons & Dragons

Here's a video of Mike Mearls talking about the Gith and their mysterious pact with Tiamat reddit led me to.
From what I remember Mike was running point on Baldur's Gate 3's marketing at the beginning, so it's possible he was laying some groundwork for the game.

Those are some good points, I think it's a good bet then that the artifact is what saved us from the fall certainly. This also means the bridge scene is a pretty big anomaly, I've wondered what would happen if you continue through the rest of the EA with the buff it gives you, to see if anything changes

I feel good about the Daisy/artifact theory.

I think the tadpole is impacted by Netherese magic, but that doesn't mean the artifact necessarily is. We have to consider that all the true souls have tadpoles that also seem to be in stasis, which we can presume because they haven't changed into mind flayers yet.

So the Netherese magic isn't unique to the players. Only the free will and the overall absence of the Absolute's voice. Which Nere mentions when he comes into proximity of the artifact. Leading me to think that the artifact is, in general, blocking out the voice, at least passively most of the time, and actively when the voice is broadcast loudly, like when the characters try to cross the bridge.

*

I'm still puzzling through my thoughts about how Shar and the dead three interact with everything. Clearly the dead three are somehow influencing or in league with the mind flayers... or a faction of the mind flayers.

I suppose the best place to start is to consider what their goals might be.

The dead three are only quasi deities, I believe. Perhaps their goal is to become fully deific once again? Perhaps they want to take over a portfolio? The last time they did it they had to slay a powerful entity first, right? And then make a deal with Jergal after attacking his fortress.

Is there a deity they may be trying to get rid of? Kelemvor, maybe?

Of note: when Withers asks the player about the value of a mortal life, if you answer that it depends on the mortal, Withers will reply with something like, "I wonder how thy will judge." Notice that Withers didn't say, "I wonder how they would judge if thy were in a position to judge." But instead, "How *WILL* thy judge?" As if it's a foregone conclusion that you'll be judging at some point.

*

Then there's Shar. Yes, she's all connected to the Shadow weave in the lore. I believe she created the shadow weave.

Her goal, as far as I know, is to bring darkness to everything. That seems to be the same goal the illithids have, to darken the sun and take over the plane.

*

Regarding the Absolute. Is it an actual entity? Is it the dead three? Is it an illithid elder brain? Lot of questions. Too little to go on.

I can't help but feel like we should be able to figure this out, though.

Yes, the only definite thing I’ve come across is what the dead mindflayer by Dror Ragzlin will say. That implies it is a mindflayer conspiracy, but of course there could be something more behind it.

In fact his description of the Absolute reminded me a little of the mural at the very beginning of the game.
I'm wondering who the central mind-flayer in that mural is and what the staff they're holding might be.

Is it Ilsensine, the illithid god?

Hard to tell so far exactly because of so little to go on.

The dead mindflayer shows us a vision of other mindflayers standing in a serene circle in absolute unity. I believe there is someone or something standing in the very middle of their circle, acting as an amplifier to their psyonic powers or using the mindflayers to amplify its own power.

In any case, it shows the world ending with thousands of Nautiloids pouring out of the void, but I believe it may be a false promise made to them by the being standing in the middle. I think they may have joined the Absolute with the intent to restore the Illithid Empire, but the Absolute has a completely different plan than the ones the mindflayers imagine and is just using them for now.

I doubt it's the absolute.

Why would the absolute call you her chosen, grant you powers and awareness of your own tadpole, and then try and have you killed and turned into an unthinking drone. at the bridge. Another theory I have seen about the dream person, is that the dream person is Shar herself.

I was just thinking about the Necromancy of Thay. Doesn't it say something about how the book makes you feel like you can do anything... like even darkening the sun?

And that made me think of this. Shar's goal. And perhaps the illithid goal, as well. If the illithids can darken the sun then the whole world is like the underdark to them. I seem to recall reading that as a goal of theirs once upon a time.

Who was the necromancer in Moonhaven trying to bring back? And what happened to the necromancer? We find the apprentice's body, but not the necromancer's.

Why have some of the companions lost so much of their remembered strength? Some people just sort of roll their eyes at this, assuming it's just a way to have characters with big backstories in a level one adventure... but I suspect it's tied directly into the plot somehow.

And so much of this story is about rebirth, or more specifically, one thing being birthed from another. The mindflayers from people. The gnolls from hyenas. There's a theme there. Intentional.

Based on all the books and letters in the game, I believe that the Necromancer in Moonhaven (Blighted Village) was Balthazar.

Because Moonhaven was devoted to Selune and it's pretty much confirmed by Shadowheart that Shar's followers raided the village. And in Ancient Temple of Shar (Grymforge) there are several notes, letters and even a map detailing the pre-planned raid of Moonhaven.

So considering how incredibly planned the raid was, it looks like they did not just go there on a whim to destroy Selune statues and kidnap her followers but also to bring the Necromancer to the Ancient Temple. Which correlates as to why the General sent True Soul Nere and Z'rell (female Drow Chosen) there in the first place, exactly to find Balthazar.

For what purpose though, I have no idea as it is outside the content of Early Access so it's pure speculation. But one good guess would be... the General requires a powerful Necromancer to bring someone powerful back to life. Maybe.

It could be, but I'm not sure how closley tied the Absolute is to the events of Ketheric Thorm and the Dark Justiciars, If the General is Ketheric, then it would follow...This would also play into the, 'Ketheric was driven mad with grief over his dead daughter' theory, because we know that the apothecary was trying to discover resurrection, whatever that means in FR.
I'm wondering if everything to do with the temple is just a side project Ketheric is trying to do on the sly.

Also the first raid was unsuccessful, though it's unclear why, it's also unclear why shortly thereafter, a host from Hell came and destroyed everything in Grymforge.

That's quite an interesting connection.

It is in fact confirmed by the Ruthe (oxen looking animals in Grymforge) that Ketheric Thorm was an elf. Although it doesn't mention which kind of elf, I assume he was a Drow since they operated within the Underdark and Shar is all about shadow.

So the General could really be Ketheric Thorm, who survived the Hell's legion and left Balthazar within the temple. And since nothing in the land is done without the General's knowledge, he seems to have known exactly where to send Z'rell and True Soul Nere and for whom exactly.

Also even his nickname is quite interesting, "The General". Possibly hinting precisely towards Ketheric Thorm's glory days of being a General of the Dark Justiciars.

I used to think it was a mistake that Us supported the player even if the player attacked the mind flayer on the nautiloid.

I thought it would make more sense if Us turned against the player if the player started attacking the other intellect devourers, for example. After all, they would screech something about the player being corrupted if a conversation led to violence.

But now I'm beginning to think that Us is just as "corrupted" as the player characters. It was a newborn, just like the players. Maybe the process didn't fully take with it, either. Maybe when Us is querying an unseen advisor, Us is really talking to the sentience in the artifact... which is leading the player to the helm.

It's also interesting how Us comments if the player tells Shadowheart she has to be left behind. "Safe if she stays," is what Us says.

And Us mentions escaping a great evil.

*

Anyway. The idea that Balthazar is the necromancer from Moonhaven makes sense. It seems like an obvious connection now that I've heard it, but I admit that it never occurred to me.

I'm still left wondering whom the necromancer was trying to resurrect.

I have to say this thread is pretty damn interesting.

Jandk and Crimsonrider: you guys are some next level big brain theorists. Bravo, both! I love these theories so much, I'm actually hoping the story goes that way.

Something that occurred to me randomly regarding Astarion, his dreams and the artifact, which could further deduct that the Dreamer is indeed the being locked inside the Githyanki box.

Unlike the rest of the party, Astarion's dreams are the complete opposite. Whereas we are being attracted by our Dreamer and invited to surrender to the experience in order to become greater, Astarion on the other hand is being pushed away because the Dreamer is tormenting him by playing against his insecurities through the illusion of Cazador, which is why he has such strong emotional outbursts against us when trying to comfort him and why he is always uneasy and unable to relax.

And one may wonder why Astarion particularly, but it is quite an easy dot to connect and it is not because he acts evil or selfish.

Following everything else connected so far in this thread, the Dreamer is locked inside the box and can only directly communicate with us if we are unconscious. Outside of dreams though it can only indirectly communicate by acting as a sentient box who knows who to trust and who not to. It also protects us, while at the same time alarming us of danger when other factions looking to exploit it are close to discovering it or close to harming us, such as in the scenarios with Astarion or Minthara while we are sleeping.

It wants to stay with us because we are the only ones not looking to exploit it, so it knows that through us the box may finally be unlocked and the Dreamer that freed the Githyanki thousands of years ago may finally be freed from its shackles. Which is why it is also holding the mindflayer parasite at bay, because if the parasite kills us, the Dreamer forever remains imprisoned.

So... why is it tormenting Astarion? Precisely because Astarion is a sleeper agent of Cazador, yet another force in the world looking to exploit the artifact. Astarion was turned into a vampire spawn which enslaved him eternally to Cazador's will, something that he cannot resist mentally no matter how much he tries. And because Cazador is so powerful, the Dreamer knows if Cazador ever discovers the artifact then he may enthrall Astarion with ease and take the box, which would once again cause the Dreamer to forever remain imprisoned.

So in order to avoid this fate and ensure its freedom, it torments Astarion excessively so he does not get any bright ideas about the box since he is trying to find any sort of advantage in order to resist Cazador, which is why he is the only one advocating to overuse the tadpole's power without limits because he is constantly afraid of him and cannot resist him.

As for what happens once the Dreamer is free. I am positive the tadpole can only be removed by the Dreamer, just as it managed to free the Githyanki so many thousands of years ago. I assume that once we finally unlock the box, which will probably be linked to also freeing Astarion from Cazador and freeing Shadowheart's memories which will reveal she is a Selune follower abducted and brainwashed by Shar, the Dreamer will come forth and we will be presented by two choices.

Either we get rid of the parasite and by doing so lose our power. Or merge ourselves and transcend as the Dreamer always intended for us by becoming its champions.

It is worth noting that Us was originally planned to be a companion in this game, so this would actually make sense given that context.

That is interesting.

Is it confirmed that Us has been scrapped as a companion for full release? Or is there a chance that they just aren't a companion in Early Access?

The writing on Astarion's back is Infernal, maybe he's meant to be a vessel for something, possibly the thing in the box?

Interesting, I didn't know it was infernal as I never romanced Astarion myself ^^

This makes me think what if Cazador and Raphael are actually in league with one another and it was actually Raphael who told Cazador on how to inscribe the thing on Astarion's back. Which then could explain why Raphael literally shows up out of nowhere directly at our camp, precisely because Cazador told him that Astarion went missing.

Raphael is definitely playing an intricate game here. Because he couldn't care less about the tadpole, or us in particular for that matter. He wants something else, perhaps even the artifact. Because so far absolutely nobody cares about us, everyone wants the artifact.

Also Raphael saves us from Priestess Gut by sending the female dwarf assassin. My guess is he wants us to get somewhere in particular. It is a question of location, not time as he tried to imply.

It would then make the most sense for him to fully transform into a powerful https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vampiric_mind_flayer before this presence takes possession of his new immortal body.

Confirmed scrapped. This was one of the earliest things they talked about at the beginning of EA.

Something that got me thinking that won't really solve any burning questions outside the EA, but is quite interesting and explains the curious Shadowheart dialogue in which she and our character talk about hearing the Dreamer on the Nautiloid and her being called a beautiful weapon, implying that we're supposed to hear the Dreamer on the Nautiloid.

Until now I thought it's something outside the scope of EA that will get implemented later because both our character and Shadowheart mention hearing the Dreamer on the Nautiloid, but we never actually do during the gameplay sequence. Or so I thought until I stopped dismissing the opening cinematic and character creation. Usually intro cinematics are just there for eye candy title drop and the character creation is just a gameplay mechanic to make a character, but that is not the case with Baldur's Gate. It is very deliberate in what it does and uses these aspects to start the storytelling. So the game's actual lore does not begin the moment we gain control of our character, but in fact the moment the opening cinematic starts, as it's showing events that are happening in real time to the point we gain control of our character.

It starts with the Absolute mindflayers who already took over the Nautiloid and killed the original mindflayer crew, while Shadowheart, Lae'zel and Tav are already imprisoned, possibly Gale too, moments prior to being violated by the Absolute tadpole. And as soon as the tadpole enters our heads, the screen fades to black (character creation acting as a dream) and we immediately hear the Dreamer asking us "Who are you?" and "Who do you dream of at night?". So from the very moment of insertion, we actually dream and hear the Dreamer on the Nautiloid precisely because Shadowheart was present with the artifact, so the Dreamer was able to intervene and put the tadpoles into stasis and use them as a way to communicate with us.

Then she does the same for Astarion, Wyll and Mizora who are kidnapped in Baldur's Gate and then Karlach who gets onboard in Avernus. And this is all happening during the cinematic and prior to waking up. So I love how they are mixing actual cinematics and the character creation to tell a story cohesively, with the cinematic being the actual event happening in real time while the character creation is acting as a dream when we pass out in the middle of it, because the Dreamer can only communicate while we are unconscious. So Shadowheart is actually referencing the character creation menu and making it a piece of lore, which is pretty cool.

Now the fascinating thing is; everyone who had the tadpole inserted while Shadowheart was onboard, did not get enthralled and instead had dreams, even survived the crash. While everyone else who was already implanted prior to Shadowheart coming onboard, ended up enthralled and dead later. This leads me to believe that we were not actually specifically chosen, but were simply lucky by being at the right place at the right time thanks to Shadowheart's artifact which reaches out passively to everyone around it, but the Dreamer can only intervene and save the person if it is present during the insertion of the tadpole to permanently put it in stasis in its infancy, otherwise it becomes too late. So I find it cute that Shadowheart feels indebted to us for saving her life when she is actually the one who saved everyone by stealing the artifact, she's just not aware of it yet and I hope this comes into play later during the story, especially between her and Lae'zel to end their rivalry.

This also makes me believe that Lae'zel and Astarion will have Queen Vlaakith and Cazador speaking to them during character creation, while Shadowheart might be called a beautiful weapon if she is selected. It would be such cool little details to see.

I think the tadpoles are supposed to be in stasis, otherwise how are all the True-Souls not turning into Mind-Flayers.

I haven't been on board for the Mind-Flayer civil war part of the theory, but if the 'weapon' does block out the Absolute's control, than it might be that its arrival on the ship broke her control over one or more of the Mind-Flayers causing them to fight amongst themselves.

If you do enough of the Dreamer's scenes she'll call you a weapon too, I think Shadowheart might just have had a more involved character creation than we do. It would be an interesting wrinkle if every character in our group arrived, or was implanted, after Shadowheart, it might change around a little the sequence of events.

Are we certain Astarion and Wyll were taken from BG? That seems like it would be a significant event.

I'm pretty sure that is answered by digging into the brains of True Souls and even Flind the Gnoll Warlord, where we see visions of them all being taken to Moonrise Towers and infected with a tadpole, which then binds the individual to the Absolute through a special magical ritual and them being unaware of the tadpole. So the tadpole on its own doesn't prevent enthrallment and ceremorphosis, it needs to undergo a special magical ritual once the host is infected in order to become a True Soul. Also if you look at True Souls, none of them experience pain or discomfort from its psyonic advantages.

The Dreamer (artifact) however managed to stop this on its own without the ritual by placing it in stasis, but at the expense of us being aware of it and it hurting us if we overuse it because it is not dormant. The tadpole is also actively fighting against the Dreamer and trying to kill her, because the Dreamer is preventing it from fulfilling its purpose. Remember that it tried to ceremorphosize and made us very sick, but the Dreamer stopped it. Which is why the Dreamer is also very insulted if you act ungrateful and accuse her of trying to kill you.

As for the civil war theory, the reason why I believe it's a civil war between Absolute mindflayers and regular mindflayers is because the cinematic shows some of them already dead and the Mindflayer who infected us looking at their corpse in a dismissive sort of way, before the Githyanki even arrive. Also the enthralled people on the Nautiloid are wearing the Absolute necklace, yet they lost their minds, which leads me to believe the Absolute party invaded the Nautiloid and the psyonic skirmish between the two caused them to go insane. Because the mindflayer itself serves the Absolute (found out later during Ragzlin's interrogation) and they don't attack their own followers. So the only ones who could have done it were other mindflayers.

As for Astarion and Wyll, Astarion himself says that he was saved from Cazador by being snatched away from him. Since Cazador lives in Baldur's Gate and Astarion is a slave kept in a cellar feeding on rats, it gives me no reason to believe he was taken from anywhere else. Same for Wyll who is the legend of the Gate. The only one I don't know where he was taken from is Gale. He can be with us initially already or taken from Baldur's Gate too.

Yes, everyone being 'finished' at Moonrise is pretty clear, but I think that 'finishing' is just having their minds wiped of the implantation, maybe with some Absolute stuff put in to make them fanatics. Mind-Flayers don't have tadpoles, so whatever influence we're positing the Absolute has over the tadpoles, it follows that she might have some influence on the Illithids, one that the Dreamer can mess with. Using the Illithid powers is what starts the ceremorphosis process, and we're told pretty directly whenever we do, that the entity in our minds feels sated or content, we also loose something of ourselves. So I think that it means that the statsis isn't total, it's just slowed the process that using the tadpole accelerates, or possibly while using the tadpole, the stasis ends before being put back up.

Part of the theory, is that as we become more psionically active, our telepathic link to the entity in the box becomes stronger, leading to our more and more involved dreams.

As for the intro, to me when he looks at the bodies of the fallen Mind-Flayer, I don't read any expression, except the normal alien and unknowable one that I would expect from beings of cosmic horror.

Because I don't think that the Absolute is ready to reveal herself so dramatically, If indeed Astarion was taken from BG, it must have been done more subtly than a giant tentacle ship snatching people in the streets. This might mean that Cazador is more directly involved with the Absolute. If that writing on his back is Absolute or artifact related, then maybe he wasn't kidnapped at all and it was just a hand-off.

I'm going back over this thread to see how this theory stands up to the new information we're getting.

With the dreamer being transitioned to the guardian, I think the idea that the dreamer isn't the manifestation of the tadpole holds up.

It leaves me wondering if the guardian is actually the sentience in the artifact though. Preparing for the reckoning and all.

Hmm. If we meet the guardian on the road in act II, in the physical world, then... I'm not sure.

The guardian in the fextralife scene dream scene said she "stole" the power that was keeping the character safe. That everyone else would transform in a moment when the command was given.

So, just a few points:

1. There is actually a screenshot on one fextralife video where the guardian actually says "You will not become a mind flayer. Not while I'm around. I'll protect you". It looks like an early scene too

2. Someone definitely confirmed, though |I can't remember who, that the visions are now removed from tadpole use. I'll have a check if I can find it

3. People have datamined about the gith artefact, but I'd rather not post that stuff because none of it may even be relevant

4. A curious quote that actually *is* in Ea. If you speak with the dead illithid in the goblin camp and ask what the gith were after it says: "They want the ones from the ship, darkness and sun, barely contained". Very interesting, sounds like the Sharrans, but why sun? Or is there something else?

I've been avoiding spoilers a little, but I'm surprised we're going to be meeting our 'guardian' in the flesh now. I think that puts the possible Gith angle to rest, but it does raise some questions about why our guardian wants us free of the Absolute, but also wants us to destroy the world. So we may have another party yet to be revealed.

Theoretically the artifact may be Zariel, shes a good match for darkness and sun she also like manipulating mortals into becoming her weapons

The artifact is specified as a Githyanki artifact. How does that fit in with the various theories?

Gith are extradimesnional raiders who have connections to the hells

To the extent that they'd fashion some kind device that's directly related to Zariel?

Potentially. They have an alliance with tiamant, and there's an implication the first vlakith sacrificed gith to the hills

This is related to why the original theory had the artifact being the prison Gith is kept in after her journey into Hell. The artifact is Gith, but also seems Infernal.

The fact Lazel and shadowheart are both basically unskippable and found in the tutorial points to some connection here

This would be some truly excellent news, it would make things much more interesting (in my playthroughs, at any rate, since I tend to leave that thing alone).

A lot of good theories here. It will be fun to see first hand what clues present themselves.



As far as the parasite conundrum goes: "Am I limiting myself by not using parasite powers?".


It's completely optional "but all decisions come with consequences".

First Larian said that they wanted to to feel more like they were progressing each level.

If tour comfortable with the 5e system, then you will be just fine without the powers.


Second it really comes down to if you want a clean conscience play-through or you want a dark story.

Remember that Sven and his team desperately want you to try evil, and will reward you for doing so (your choice).

Personally I think Sven Vincke is ultimately the real antagonist of this story and I don't need his gifts (my choice).

Same with Dark Urge powers. Hard pass.

I have started dark play-throughs in other games and I quickly abort, but that's just me. Just not "fun" at all.

What I've gathered from the last PFH and everybody's reaction to it, especially those with extra info and/or content to share is that we're going to be gobsmacked on release. It will a different game than we played in EA, and all bets are off. And part of me thinks the artifact is immune from that because obviously they shared so little in EA, but I can't help but assume as the time has passed, the relationship between the artifact and the story has changed for the writers

If we didn't know it was a Gith artifact, I would have guessed from the look that it might be this artifact: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowstar

At the presentation I attended in Ghent, someone asked Swen what he considered the themes of the game to be. I didn't write this all down, so my memory might be unreliable, but iirc two things he picked out were trust and temptation, the latter of which is relevant here. And I think he said that the game would do its very best to tempt us into dark ways, but that whether we give in is up to us. Whether there will be a good payoff for turning our back on power, or whether virtue will need to be its own reward, I don't know. But I actually find this a really interesting approach, and for at least some of my character concepts am not at all sure where they'll end up, as I will need to play it by ear and see what feels right for them in the moment.

Same Zariel that litteraly pursue Karlach? O_o

And at the beginning, while we are in Avernus ... she was both in Blood War and in Shadowheart inventory? O_o

Seems unlikely.