Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General A Theory

I think the dream persona is the sentience within the artifact that Shadowheart carries.

I mentioned this in another thread. Someone replied:


This is a fair question. I was about to respond to it in the other thread when I realized that it was ultimately off topic. Thus, I'm making this thread so as to not derail the other.

To respond:

It's known that the Children of Gith eventually broke free of the illithids by developing psionic powers of their own. It's often been said in lore that they got their powers after suffering through generations of servitude to the mind flayers.

Meaning their powers resulted from the powers of the illithid.

I'd like to quote a section of a book that can be found in BG3. Specifically, a section of the Oral Histories book on the Gith and Mind Flayers.

The end portion is what I'm referencing. It reads:


I suggest that the reckoning mentioned in this passage came from the same source that powers the artifact. The unknown power that eventually gave the Gith their freedom... came from the artifact. Or rather, from the sentience within the artifact.

It allowed the Gith to develop psionic powers that gave them the strength to fight back.

I think the dream persona is using the tadpole to connect with Tav and the companions. Allowing them to use the psionic power of the illithids to their advantage. In fact, swelling the tadpole with more power than it ought to have.

I further suggest that not using the tadpole power is a mistake.

*

There's also an illithid tablet on the Nautiloid that, when read, says something like: "Images flash through your mind. A brain, a githyanki warrior, and centuries of darkness."

I think this has something to do with the sentience trapped within the artifact.

*

Anyway, just a theory.

I'm glad you made this thread as your theory was one of the best I heard so far for the Dreamer.

As far as the Illithid tadpole goes and how the Dreamer relates to it, I look at it like this:

• The tadpole is nothing more than just a regular mindflayer parasite. What makes it special is that it's enveloped in Netherese stasis to prevent it from accomplishing ceremorphosis and make the host stronger.
• The Illithid tadpole is basically acting as a transceiver sending out telepathic signals at all times, but also receiving them.
• At the start of the game this signal is incredibly weak and practically non-existent, but gets stronger through regular use.
• The Dreamer contacts us aboard the Nautiloid and is searching for this signal until it eventually manages to catch this weak signal to utter one sentence; "Where are you?".
• Eventually once the signal becomes strong enough, the Dreamer is now able to partially connect to that signal and communicate with us exclusively through dreams when our consciousness is at its lowest.
• Once that signal gets even stronger, the Dreamer is able to communicate even without the dreams, such as telling us; "We are loved" during the day.
• So the Dreamer now basically is able to hijack the tadpole signal for its own purposes of us becoming its Chosen.

If the Dreamer truly is the influence jailed within the artefact (because it is locked), it would make sense why it is able to not only communicate with us through dreams, but also overpower the tadpole and keep it at bay while allowing us to tap into its beneficial powers. Because this influence also saved us from the fall from the Nautiloid and more importantly literally came to us to repel the Absolute's overpowering influence without breaking a sweat, which is far stronger than the tadpole ever could be.

Also an interesting thing is that overusing the tadpole we get the tag [True Soul], however no matter whether or not we use the tadpole, the Absolute's influence over us is equally overpowering in both cases. The only one that gains a stronger connection with us is the Dreamer, whom the cultists and True Souls cannot hear nor see.

As far as the artefact though, the prism is locked. So the Githyanki runes are probably magical enslavement runes for the whole purpose of enslaving the presence within it to the object, which we might possibly break out in Baldur's Gate with the help of Shar followers and then get as a companion (which we customize at the start of the game).

One of the possibilities could be that the tadpole might actually never leave our head. But instead it may become a merged part of us through the help of the Dreamer and we fully become the Dreamer's Chosen, as was intended.

What we know about the artifact: It was in the possession of the Gith, it was stolen by the Sharrans, it has Gith writing on its surface, It has a will of it's own, it is referred to as a weapon by the Gith and the Absolute

What we know about Daisy: We're first asked to describe 'her' after being implanted on the Nautiloid, she wants BG and the Sword Coast to burn, our connection to her grows clearer as we use the tadpole's powers

So there does seem to be some crossover here, It's possible the Artifact is a doomsday weapon, which might be why the Sharrans are interested in it.
It does seem to be sentient...All of this talk about the origins of the Gith has me thinking about Torment, where you can create a living apocalypse weapon, but that might be a little far fetched.

That's a good point about how the true-souls can't sense the artifact, kind of like the One Ring, if its aims correlated with the Absolute's, you'd imagine it might try and sabotage you at some point.

Interesting. Not something that had occurred to me, but you could be on to something


I’m not sure this follows, though. Even if the dream persona is linked to the artifact and is opposed to the illithids, that doesn’t mean it’s benign. It could be that, in the end, the story is about us finding some sort of accommodation with the dream persona/weapon to allow us to defeat the illithids/Absolute. But welcoming its influence with open arms still isn’t necessarily a great idea.

I still think it doesn't make sense because the dream lover is trying to tempt you to become the leader of his or her army and use your powers to become truly great and take over Baldur's Gate. This seems more like the absolute. Not only that but the more you use the powers that the dream lover gives you, the more you start to do weird transformations in Camp. It just really doesn't seem like the weapon is the dream lover to me.

May or may not be relevant, but I keep forgetting to check this in the vision you get when entering the goblin camp. Is one of the three chosen you see in that vision the same fighter that you stab in one of the dream sequences?

Nah that's just a Balduran guard trying to look like an Oblivion guard

Those in the vision are the three Chosen Drows of the Absolute, one of them is known as the General and he is at Moonrise Towers. The location of the other two are unknown.

I am guessing that the vision in which we see Baldur's Gate burning may not be by our hand. I would not be surprised if the Absolute infiltrated the city to destroy it from within. For all we know, that guard that attacked us may as well be an Absolute cultist working for the Absolute. Lovely thing about the Mysterious Guest is that their visions and dream sequences are indeed mysterious. And I would really hate it if it turned out to be just a classical Disney villain that's evil just for the sake of evil.

Definitely radiates the whole "I'm mysterious and most likely evil" vibe, but I really think it will be the opposite. I am of belief that the vision is just a smokescreen that makes us think we're about to drench the city in blood and we probably may, but in Absolute's army blood. Because she is building an actual army and Kagha mentions that there is an army amassing on the Sword Coast. So we probably will be fighting in the streets of Baldur's Gate to protect it from the Absolute's army.


I highly doubt it is the Absolute as it makes her seem terribly bipolar if that was the case. We experience the Absolute's voice and her immense power over the mind on the bridge. If it truly was her, then she'd have no trouble just overpowering us from the moment we stepped onto land.

One thing that is very interesting is that when we are asleep, something keeps warning us of threats. This is seen when Astarion tries to bite us during our sleep and when Minthara tries to stab us. In both cases the Narrator mentions that something within us is warning us of danger and then wakes us up. I do not think it's the tadpole and the only other resident in our head is the Dreamer, who feels very insulted and annoyed if you imply they're trying to harm you in any way.

If anything, I'm absolutely certain that the Absolute, the tadpole and the Dreamer are three different entities. The Absolute doesn't care one bit about us nor wants us, all she wants is the weapon which is able to go against her. The Dreamer wants us to become something greater. And the tadpole just wants to transform. But all three are at each other's necks.

Yes, I wondered if the vision was meant to have been of me defeating one of the Absolute’s chosen. I’ve just checked on YouTube and you only see them in silhouette. The dream figure could at a stretch be one of them (presumably the General) as the armour shape is similar, though in the vision the helmet has a plume. Could mean that they’re not the same person, or just that the art in the vision isn’t yet perfectly matched by in-game assets.

Though possibly there’s something else about the armour that proves it’s someone from Baldur’s Gate, or something’s been data-mined? Though it would be a bit lame if it were just a random guard in the dream. I hope it’s an actual significant character you get to meet.

(Duke Ravenguard? Though would he be wearing Flaming Fist armour? I don’t think you can see the face clearly enough to draw any definitive conclusions from that.)

EDIT: Apologies that this is a bit of a tangent. I was just thinking that if we knew who that person was it might help shed some light on who the dreamer is.

I just think it's a regular Balduran guard to illustrate we are fighting the city guards and then causing the city to fall once we're the Dreamer's chosen, not meant to be anyone special. As I don't think it would be serving the story any good by showing us killing the Drows or other True Souls within the dreams, as the Dreamer sequences seem to be intentionally mysterious and misleading into making us believe they're just a classical Disney villain on the Absolute's side.

I am of belief there is more to the Dreamer than just black and white, good and evil. Especially because we get to customize the Dreamer, so it gives me belief they have a far more complex role to play than what the visions imply. Otherwise they could have just made a specific appearance for the Dreamer if their role was small or exclusive only to the evil side.

But it doesn't fit. You use tadpole powers. You dream the dream lover. She gives you greater tadpole powers. You use them. She returns in your dreams and increases your transformation. You are gaining more illilthid powers. She promises you the ability to rule at her side. All of it is illithid based. It's not gith. You are becoming a very powerful true soul.

I don't know. It would be kinda weird to be the weapon. That would mean that a gith weapon was using mind flayer powers, harnessing them and honing them. Wouldn’t that be an abomination to them?

True, by using the tadpole we also get the Dreamer. And yet the tadpole keeps trying to rip her apart from the very first dream sequence. And in the third dream we get to;

• Pass a Charisma check to resist both the Dreamer and the tadpole
• Put our trust in the Dreamer
• Give into the tadpole's rage and attack the Dreamer

One important thing to note is that we do get the first sign of ceremorphosis just before we meet the Dreamer. And then the next morning we are entirely cured and strong with new powers. Whoever the Dreamer might be is clearly powerful enough to harness the tadpole in our heads and give us powers while keeping the ceremorphosis at bay, which is why the tadpole wants to rip her apart so badly.

As for the weapon, the Githyanki box is just a magically sealed container for whatever is inside it because;

• Passing the Intelligence check makes our character sense something inside the box.
• Shadowheart keeps trying to open it all the time in the background and consistently fails
• Trying to get rid of it will make it electrify you so it shows signs of sentience and even intelligence

So whatever or whoever is inside the box strictly wants just us and nobody else, so it isn't implied that the weapon is of Githyanki origin, only the box is.

And an interesting thing Shadowheart mentions is that the voice told her she will be "a beautiful weapon".

Are all the powers necessarily illithid or tadpole related? I had always assumed that they were, and certainly the dialogue options specifically say “illithid” but perhaps it’s more complex than that. Gith also use psionics, or perhaps the sentience in the box is something else entirely that nevertheless can manipulate illithid-like powers. We don’t know that the gith created what’s inside the box, even if they did create the box itself.

I agree not everything perfectly fits the idea that the dreamer is related to the box, but we know so little about it that those could still be explained away. As could potentially the things that don’t fit about the dreamer being on the side of the Absolute, such as the fact the tone of the dreams is entirely different from the vision of the Absolute, that the box responds to that vision but not the dreams, and that in that vision the voice is asking for help finding the weapon which the dreamer doesn’t ask about.

It still feels as though there are loads of ways this can go, and it’s fun to speculate.

EDIT: By the way, I don’t think that using the tadpole, assuming that’s what we’re doing, is *necessarily* what the Absolute would want, either. There’s presumably a reason why the cult have been set to kill survivors from the ship. Perhaps they actually don’t want people going around using the powers without having completed the full process that involves forgetting about the tadpole.

EDIT 2 (ANOTHER QUESTION): By the way, do we think that the vision of the Absolute as we enter the goblin camp is targeted specifically to us, or is it being broadcast to all True Souls and we happen to get caught up?

Excellent observation.


I don't think it's off topic at all. It's a perfectly valid question that fits the theme of the thread, which is exploring theories about what's going on. Honestly, I've wondered who that individual is several times myself, and I can't help but notice the similarity in the armor design. Still, I think it's too early to tell.


Speaking of hunting down the survivors to kill them...

Something I always wonder about when I'm watching the intro--it almost looks like the red dragons attacking the ship are trying to kill the prisoners in the pods more than anything else.

Notice the way the dragon breathes fire toward Laezel in the chamber in the scene where the flames move in slow motion. Sure, maybe the dragons are just attacking any and everything, but still, it stands out to me, almost as if the dragon is targeting the companions.

And the same thing happens when the nerves of the transponder are finally connected. The dragon pokes his head in, stares at you and then lets loose with the fire. Even if the dragon is staring straight at Laezel, a githyanki.

Just a thought, but I sometimes wonder if it's not the fabled Gith inside the box.

Vlaakith only rules because Gith disappeared after going to make a deal with Tiamat. Is it possible that the lich queen has had the true githyanki leader imprisoned in the box the whole time?

Again, I think of the tablet on the illithid ship: "Images flash through your mind. A brain. A githyanki warrior. And centuries of darkness."

Is the warrior in question Gith? Are the centuries of darkness talking about being imprisoned within the box?

Ooh! I don’t know, but that’s another really fun idea to ponder on.

Kinda doubt because if it is in fact an Infernal Puzzle Box, then the box doesn't work like a Tardis (Bigger on the inside, Doctor Who), and originates from the Nine Hells. They're used to safeguard diabolical contracts between a devil and a mortal. Look up its full description if you'd like some material to enjoy speculating on. I find the more interesting question to be why does Shadowheart have it, seemingly prior to ending up on the Nautiloid? Suggests she's been to the Nine Hells before or directly/indirectly received/stolen it from someone who was.

Check this little nugget and its comments for some more speculative food for thought ☺️

I'm not sure why a contract would have a sentience of its own. The box expresses a desire to remain with the characters. It doesn't want to fall into the gith patrol hands any more than it wants to be taken by the Absolute, which the narrator tells us in the scene with the githyanki.

Regarding the infernal puzzle box possibility... maybe. I mean, it certainly seems similar'ish in nature, but it's worth noting that it's covered in gith script as opposed to infernal.

As to whether or not it's bigger on the inside: I don't know. But that aside, when we consider something like Dhourn's memory crystal, it's apparent that Larian is willing to slightly change things. In the adventure Out of the Abyss, they are called Stonespeaker Crystals and have the ability to offer visions of the past, present, and future.

I didnt want to go on with this on that another threat ...
But here i can! <3

How (im)possible it seems to you that this is only coincidence?
Things that happens on same time dont necesarily need to relate each other ...

I would say it is possible that Larian may decided to cleverly tie this events together to raise our suspicion towards this dream person.

And therefore i would like to present another (even tho really wild) theory:
There are 3 figures ... Artefact, the Absolute AND Dream person ...

Aswell as there is Dead 3
Aswell as there are 3 generals
Aswell as there are 3 basic alignments

The absolute presents path of Evil ...
Artefact (maybe?) presents path of Good ...
And our Dream Person offers Neutral (our own) path ...

Just wild speculation, have basicaly nothing to support it, except holes that are in presuming Dream Person belongs to any other side.

I can answer that!

Bcs Tiamat is evil b...(how do you call female from a dragon?) and Gith (Githyanki leader who went to negotiate with her) actualy never returned from that meeting ...
There are some wild theories that her consciousness, essence, or being in general is actualy trapped inside the box by Tiamat, as part of her pact made in fact with Vlaakith who wanted to rule instead of Gith but had no legit was to get rid of her.

The only problem with this theory is that in dataminded stuff things that seems to be reffering to the box are reffering to it as a Male ... but Gith was a female. O_o
But that can aswell be just misstake on Larian side.

Yes, I’d also assumed that the fact that the script was gith rather than infernal meant it wasn’t an infernal puzzle box, though I guess that might be explained and I can see there might be similarities.

But I agree that the sentience of the box implies there’s more in it than a contract. I’m not sure how big it would need to be to contain a consciousness or prison pocket dimension. Or possibly it is an infernal puzzle box containing a contract, but has a connection to a sentience that’s located elsewhere.

I had also assumed that Shadowheart’s secret mission was to steal the box from the gith (perhaps for Shar as a means of defeating the Absolute from whom I assume she’d not appreciate competition). But again, there are many more possibilities here!

EDIT: Of course, the box is also referred to as a “weapon” by both the Absolute and the githyanki dragon rider, at least I assume they’re referring to the box. I wonder in what sense a prison or contract could be a weapon? Of course, people who call it that might be misled or misleading, and I can think of possible ways those things *might* be weaponised.