Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;)

"My examples are right! Other examples are wrong!"

lol okay

For what it's worth, I hope you get some faces you like.

I mean, honestly, it doesn't matter whether the almond shaped eyes and elongated faces are right. The fact remains that I don't want them to remove faces but make it so all faces for all races are able to be accessible regardless of race, making Gith models human and human models Gith, etc. And then, add more faces that are "elvish", more that are dwarvish, halflingish, etc

I refer back to my earlier observation ->


By your logic, a rendition of a D&D elf that is entirely human is equally valid. Do you see how ridiculous acceptance is when taken to an extreme?

Anyhow, despite my general disinterest in 5e, I'll give Wizards of the Coast credit when it comes to that edition's depiction of elves: it's finally consistent across the board. To be fair, they may have gotten it right with 4e; however, I completely skipped that edition of D&D and have only rarely viewed its art. As for Larian...they're doing their own thing, but not in a good way.


It does matter. Wait a second: why did you exclude "pointy ears"?


However, the default face upon first selecting "Elf" should be unmistakably elfin and so should any randomly generated faces; significant deviations/customizations from that point would involve a deliberate choice on the part of the player. Also, the Elf NPCs should also adhere to that baseline, but I'm not holding my breath; Larian apparently decided to play it safe in addition to chucking system/setting orthodoxy out the window. They've decided to pursue that which is easier/more marketable/more mainstream.

+1

I think a good approach would be to show something like this, when the player first enters the character creation field to choose a fantasy Race...



Not that they need to be all silhouetted out as skiagrams like that (although I really do like that approach, because it simplifies the overall visual) but just the idea that the player is shown an exemplar of each fantasy racial type, all presented together in a single image. That way one can see the differences in phenotype (basic body shape or height) along with some of the major distinguishing features that are easy to recognize at a glance, like the pointy ears and whatnot.

Unlike what we'd probably find in a nicely polished illustration, where things like hairstyle or fashion/clothing or the surrounding background environment can all be used together to help differentiate the various fantasy races in more specific contexts, in a D&D game (where this stuff is more setting/culture neutral or undefined) I think it would help to strip away all the minor detailing to really highlight what's unique about each in general terms - or general visual forms in this case.

So, just like sketching things out in a drawing, where you want to start with the big stuff first and get that dialed before you start detailing, you'd begin with the full body like that.

I'd use the example of the black mirror

The black mirror is an old artist's tool, which compresses/eliminates extraneous visual information, so the artist can focus on what's truly important - things like basic shape or basic tone/contrast. It simplifies the color 'values' to eliminate the midtones and plays up the basic forms. Sort of the opposite of a traditional photograph in that way. In a photograph, say a BW photo on film, the camera captures a ton of detail automatically, and does much of the work of rendering the subject flat and where we can see all the very fine gradients. The black mirror flips that on its head, by just forcibly removing a lot of that information. We are all probably carrying a black mirror in our pocket right now actually. If you don't power on your smartphone it can work in exactly the same way! When you observe a subject or an image reflected on that black surface you can see what I mean with how it works. The same can be achieved simply by squinting your eyes in most cases, but the black mirror makes it even easier.

So the idea in this case would be to do the same for fantasy race, i.e. make sure I can tell the difference between an Elf and a Human, in the black mirror. And if I can't then you go back to the drawing board a bit, until I can! hehe

Much of the conversation in this thread has been about faces. What specifically makes for a good Elven face or a good Elven head, but instead of hanging up on the minutia there, I'd try to go more black mirror with it. Start with the body phenotypes, so that they're actually distinct, then move to the faces.

Any human face/head should be able to morph into an idealized Elf face/head, after it's run through a couple simple permutations. In previous posts I mentioned larger eyes, or larger pupils relative to the size of the iris (where the Elf pupil could be significantly larger compared to a Humans pupil) as something that works beyond just the pointy ears. I think the eyebrows might work in a similar sort of way, with Elf brows being more angular say. But again really focusing on making those features pretty easy to distinguish from the standard Human versions of the same. I should be able to see the same "face" change from Human to Elf (or Dwarf or Halfling or Tief etc) with the various forms morphing to give the fantasy race version of the base face. Same deal with the body phenotype, where it makes sense. Like if I choose a very skinny body, I should still be able to tell the difference between a skinny human and a skinny elf, if that makes sense. Because they'd have that different base 'silhouette' to build from.

I mention the body type silhouette thing mainly because, even if they wanted to have Elf and Human faces remain virtually identical aside from the ears, they could still convey a distinction by having the bodies be somewhat different in scale or things like that. In the movies and shows or cosplay that doesn't work as well, where the differences are conveyed mainly through makeup and wardrobe choices, but because this is a computer game I think it's a bit simpler to execute here. That was basically the approach in BG1/2 with the avatars and paper dolls, which could still convey the differences in type regardless of the chosen portrait, or the chosen "head/face" in the case of BG3. I'd go with height as the big one, and probably do more differentiation in standard height than that image above would suggest (I just snapped it up from a quick google search). In BG3 we get that neck-up view in cutscene, which makes things tricky, but I think they could still do something there with camera angle and things like pupil size or eyebrows or cheekbone flare etc for their closeups.

In closeup I think Spock eyebrows for Elves would be an easy one. I mean where the arch of the brow at the supercilium continues to flare upwards rather than returning back down again towards the ears. Essentially shaving off the down brow or making it just very faint like an aspect of their complexion rather than eyebrow hair. I don't mean just like a gentle plucking to keep things tidy here, but actually giving them a more consistent sweep/shape throughout. Just like when you see a Vulcan or Romulan wearing a hood, you can still tell what's up, from the Spock eyebrows alone hehe. Stuff like that is more detailing oriented though, they still need to get the body stuff dialed first. The difference between Elves and Humans should be fairly easy to pick out. Half-Elves complicate the situation a bit, so I'd just have them default to the Humans body proportions (rather than defaulting to Elf body proportions like they did in BG1/2), but for the full Elves go a bit more extreme with it. Even if Lae'zel can't tell really the difference, I'd like to be able to lol.

Also, thanks for the kind words there Ragitsu! haha! Since these boards have no feedback reactions, it can be pretty hard to tell what people think of a given thought or idea sometimes. Like I'll spend an hour trying to write something, only to wonder if anyone ever even read it lol. So that was nice to catch a nod there. Take care and see ya on the next round!

Best
Elk

ps. here this is what I'm talkin about... In BG3 the Elf body phenotype is indistinguishable from that of the Human or the Half-Elf, since the bodies are actually identical, just with a different head tacked on.



I think it's helpful to see the images together, since the cycler (only showing 1 selection at a time) obfuscates what's going on and makes some of this stuff appear to be a lot more variable than it actually is.

Nothing has really changed much for the heads, since the patch where I put em all together, so again here are the Elf heads in BG3...


Even if these are all "too Human" for one's taste, perhaps if combined with a unique body/racial phenotype, they could still get something going for an overall presentation that would carry a bit better than it does currently. Sure it's a little more work for the animators to give us a unique phenotype for Elves, but I think it would be worth it. Because unlike say Tieflings, where the horns and tails are a dead give away, Elves are just a lot easier to confuse with Humans. With Half-Elves that seems fine, but for the full Elves not so much. Right now, if someone was wearing a Helmet or a Hood you wouldn't be able to tell the difference at all. I think that's a bit of an issue. I should be able to pick out an Elf the same way I can pick out a Dwarf or an Orc. They could do some of that with selective dress, sure, but not quite to the same extent that can be done in a movie or a show - where the Elves can all look and dress in a particular art nouveau or Roman-esque style, or where all the Humans can be like Monty Python peasants or dressed like Vikings or whatever, with different hair trends and fashions and such to set them apart. Here clothing and hair etc is all much more interchangeable, so you'd need a bit more at the base. I'd like to think this is something they'd probably do, or already be working on, since it seems obvious enough, but because it's not in there now and perhaps might not be unless someone asks, that's why I'd be asking for it.

pps. I wish the character creator could load more than one visual at a time. Here's a kind of concept where once you'd select the main silhouette for fantasy race you'd branch from that general category to a subrace view first, before actually entering into the details with all facial variety and whatnot...



That one is just a quick rescale to show Elves downscaled at like 95% of the current Human frame.

I should respond more often . Alas, energy is one commodity I have in short supply these days.


It truly is shocking how - once they are placed abreast for the purposes of comparison - all of the traditional D&D races in Larian's attempt reveal uniform builds among the sexes. Too bad Goldberry can't amend the first post in this thread to show your work! Each successive effort (by yourself or anyone else similarly dedicated) strengthens the case that much more.


This is what I was banging on about earlier: the ease with which you can eradicate a Larian BG3 Elf's features to make them human. All it takes is two fingers held up to an Elf's head (one finger for one ear) and the lack of artistic effort is immediately revealed. Magic aside, the only occasions where an Elf can meaningfully obscure their anatomical distinctiveness (i.e., their build) involve darkness and/or distance; their physiognomy is a dead giveaway once they are viewed up close.

Since we are discussing Ye Olde Humans with Pointeth Ears, I thought I should take the time to bring up one of my favorite Half-Elves in Forgotten Realms fiction (courtesy of author Lisa Smedman).

SPOILERS AHEAD for Heirs of Prophecy!


--- --- ---

Also, here's another example of a non-D&D Elf that fits the bill when it comes to germane examples, from a rendition by artist Michael Whelan.


It can be difficult to discern - as the piece isn't focused on her in particular - but that female Elf's (okay, Sithi's) face looks properly otherworldly and angular.

Do you just keep on re-posting this until someone answers x) ?

It keeps "being up" again and again and the post date is changing.

Much appreciated, MelivySilverRoot.

"Sweet water and light laughter till next we meet", as they say in The Realms.

lol, what is going on? Why do your posts keep showing up as new?

Omg again? This is some advanced spamming 😅

If the "doppelganger effect" is intentional, that would be strangely amusing.

Recently, I glanced at the "Who is your Dream Lover ? (Appearance/RP choices)" thread and was shocked to see what passes for a Drow as of the latest early access version.


How does anyone at Larian HQ look at that mug and think "Yes: that is an elf."? Then, there's the issue of skin color.

Ugh... This looks bad. He looks like human with gray skin and pointy ears. What's with that black eyebrows? Aren't drow with white hair shouldn't have white eyebrows as well? And that human-like facial features? Is that drow, or half drow?

Its up to player ...
You can create white eyebrow Drow, aswell as black one ... depends only on wich hair collor you pick.
I believe its a full Drow.

Original Drow description: They are described as black-skinned and pale haired in appearance, around 5-feet tall and slight of build with somewhat sharp features, with large eyes and large pointed ears.

Forgotten Realms Drow Description: Both sexes varied in height from 4 feet and ​7 inches​ to ​5 feet and ​5 inches (140​ to ​170 centimeters), averaging at 5 feet (150 centimeters). Males weighed between 87​ to ​157 pounds (39​ to ​71.2 kilograms), averaging 109.5 pounds (49.67 kilograms), while females were a bit lighter, weighing between 82​ to ​152 pounds (37​ to ​68.9 kilograms) and averaging 104.5 pounds (47.4 kilograms).

Coloration
Drow skin tones ranged from dark grey, jet-black, and obsidian, (with various shades of blue), the albino drow known as the Szarkai being an exception. Drow had white, black, or purple teeth, while their gums, tongues, and throats could be red, pink, or purple.

Drow eyes could be of any color, with bright red being the most common. Pale shades that appeared nearly white of blue, lilac, pink, or silver were also frequent. Drow with green, brown, black, amber, or rose-hued eyes existed, but they were rare. Purple or blue eyes indicated surface elves and/or human ancestry. The color of a drow's eyes could also be indicative of their current mental or physical state; drow eyes reddened when they were angry, and turned yellow when they were sick, poisoned, or under some negative magical influence.

Hair
Drow hair could be stark white, pale yellow and, more rarely, silver or copper in color. It thinned and changed color with age, turning pale yellow for women, and silver or grey for men. Due to the Eilistraeen ritual of The Run, drow of other faiths would often say that silver hair was a sign of mental handicap.

Drow generally kept their hair long, and decorated it with pins and webbing made of precious metals. They were incapable of growing proper beards, but some males managed to grow long sideburns or even tufts of wispy hair on the cheek or chin.


So, it is understandable that some might not think the image is very drow-like. He has light gray skin, looks human, dark brows, etc.

But it is also understandable that some might argue, "This Drow is the exception. Not the rule."

Also remember, the image was meant to be a Dream Lover. Right?

What's my point?

It's a perfectly fine Drow. However, more traditional Drow faces, body types, etc. are desperately needed because although it's perfectly fine to create a Drow like that as an exception, it is not fine that players have NO ability to actually create traditional Drow or traditional elves period. The issue is that ALL elves in BG3 look like exceptions to the race.

We just need more.

+1

+1 ❤️


+1 😊


I dont' mind more. Obviously that would be awesome!


However, I would like to add something about how elves/drows are supposed to look like. Then I'll drop it. This thread is uber-long and I think most people have made their points.

So here it is.

First, in my opinion, there isn't really any official clear description about the physiognomy of elves (not including "colorisation" here). None that aren't susceptible to interpretation anyway. At least not in the 5th Edition of D&D.

Which brings me to my second point : Baldur's Gate 3 (Larian Studios) seems to clearly draw inspiration from a more recent version of D&D, namely the 5th edition.
And the 5th Edition (with official books such as Mordenkainen's Monsters of the Universe or Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and Xanathar's Guide to Everything) truly extends on the elves and the drows. Lore wise and appearance wise. What we know about them and how they are depicted.

Here's what Jeremy Crawford has to said about this : youtube video (I highly recommend it, it's a very interesting one).

Here are two screenshots from the PHB and a couple of photos taken from other books (so pardon the quality) :

Player's Handbook : Drizzt Do'Urden (left) 💚 and a Rogue Drow (right) Not only has the drow a lighter skin (I'd say medium gray) but they have dark eyebrows too! *minds blown*


TCoE and XGtE : Various depictions of drows with various shades of gray skin. Even one with dark eyebrows!


MMoM : Same and there is even one with full on dark hair 😀(looks handsome as well if you ask me).


Reminder : I absolutely support the idea of adding more face models for elves and drows (even other races).
However, I'm just not a fan of bashing people's head with "It's not an elf!" or "It's not a drow" when artists (this include video game developers) or players share their own elven/drow characters. People can accept some homebrewing here and there, I think that's also valid when it comes the appearances of races/characters.


On that note, I officially exit this thread (unless I notice some typos and feel the compulsion to edit my mistakes)!
Like I said earlier, people have made their cases. At that point, Larian Studios has heard you all. Whether they take it into consideration or not is another story.


See yall!

+1

Hmmm. Y'all missed a HUGE part of what I said.

It's a perfectly fine Drow. HOWEVER, more traditional Drow faces, body types, etc. are desperately needed because although it's perfectly fine to create a Drow like that as an EXCEPTION, it is NOT FINE that players have NO ability to actually create traditional Drow or traditional elves period. The issue is that ALL elves in BG3 look like exceptions to the race.

Y'all made it sound like I support absolutely no addition to what we have currently.

But Melivy does have a point. Everything that needs to be said has been said. So...