Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Bard Feedback

Couldn't see a thread for this so made one!

Subclass: College of Lore
Progress: Did all the content I could find in EA

Bard is one of my favourite classes in 5e and in my experience (as DM much more than player) at the table one of the strongest. But I think BG3's version is actually a bit behind the power curve compared to other classes. Not being as useful as they are in pen and paper is sort of inevitable because of less emphasis on what they do well, but not only do they not really have anything to bolster them in a combat role in compensation for missing utility, they are weaker in and out of combat than they should be.

Going through specifics-

Viscous Mockery: The piddling damage is always sort of a downside but against inflated health pools and large numbers of enemies in encounters this spell sucked. It didn't help my luck with getting it to stick seemed to be cursed, but there's not a lot of soft targets for wis saves either. In context it doesn't really compete with a crossbow, let alone a crossbow that's been dipped in a candle.

Dissonant Whispers: I'll chalk this one up as unfinished but it's kind of the bread and butter of Bards' spells at low levels and one their very few worth while damaging spells. Missing half its utility is a significant nerf to the class. In fairness it's a spell that is about swinging the reaction economy in a context where major changes are coming to that but this spell need to do what it's meant to do (deny reactions to target, trigger useful reactions in allies)

Cutting Words: This is another victim of how reactions are implemented but it does get a buff to compensate. But it's too much of an exercise in precognition on the player's part, it's clearly overall a nerf still. If you got the inspiration back if it was never used that would help a little. I get there might be some concern with this one that even if there was pop-up system for reaction it might trigger too often, limiting it to attacks, checks where the degree of success was within the range of the inspiration dice, along with hits it would probably be fine. It's a turn based game and the amount of opportunities to use this feature is its strength.

Friends: This cantrip was the cause of so much frustration for me. It is kind of worthless as implemented. The spell as written is kind of vague on down side but how its been converted into mechanical consequences makes it unusable. You don't really know if the consequence will trigger, if it will be disapproval conversation, which in itself makes the spell a net negative (you've traded a check without advantage for check with advantage followed by a check without advantage, or it's a cantrip with a ridiculously high material component cost), or straight to hostile. The best example I found of this not making the slightest sense was using it at Waukeen's rest with the Bard option to encourage the guards to knock down the door, going immediately to combat... in the middle of a burning building. Even from a simulation point of view it should be specific checks with friends that trigger consequence not any check with an NPC. If you aren't willing to role back the consequences by reloading then this cantrip is far too risky to use, and if you are then why not reload on failure. Either be upfront about what the consequence of using it will be and moderate those down a bit, remove the downside if it can't be implemented sensibly, or remove Friends as a trap spell choice.

Level 2 spell selection: It kind of needs acknowledging that Suggestion not being there kind of guts this spell level for bards and makes them worse at what they do. It does open up the possibility of taking a combat spell but the one recommended, Phantasmal Force is abysmal. Heat Metal is situationally great and buffed massively by the Fire Circlet, but even in BG3 it's a bit too situational. I guess there's also hold person but that has a lot of overlap with Hideous Laughter. I personally didn't take Enhance Ability as my second spell and ended up regretting it massively. But whatever spell choice a bard makes for their level 2 spell it's going to end up as a major part of their kit for a few levels.

College of Lore fixed skill selection: Not sure if this a bug or not, if not this is horrible and pointless nerf. Either way it was a nasty surprise.

Itemisation: not really a whole lot that's synergistic let alone anything that's bard specific. Finding the barbarian clothes made me a little sad.


Overall: I love Bard and will probably Bard in full release (multiclass into Life Cleric or a couple of levels of Warlock offsets a lot of their problems in this game's context) but in combat it kind of felt like a weaker control Sorcerer, no twinned Hold Person but also (and mainly) no choice not to be a control Sorcerer. The stand out part of their kit in my play through was Faerie Fire. But drop Faerie Fire hide at the back and spam dipped hand crossbows, occasionally throw out a cutting words which might or might not do anything isn't really the most exciting. A couple of skill Expertise doesn't really make up for that.

Little s suggestions: The thing Bard sort of needs ASAP is a synergistic item. A baby Instrument of the Bard with no spells but takes the more generous (and better) interpretation of inflicting disadvantage on saves against all their spells would do a lot to emphasise what's good about their combat kit. Dissonant Whispers desperately needs something in place of the big fat nothing it got to replace its utility. Lore bards need their skill selection.

Also there needs to be more opportunities for group jams with their instruments.

Good feedback.
An additional nerf is that you can buff Attack Rolls via High Ground (+2) but you can't similarly buff ST spells. Plus, some enemies (Gith patrol mainly, I think) have inflated stats = inflated STs.

It's interesting because BG3 originally implemented Frightened as "must use your turn to run away," which would have swung the other way for BG3 Bards' Dissonant Whispers, making it more powerful than 5e RAW.

I agree that the consequences of this spell should be more clear. A reasonable implementation could be similar to the stealing mechanic; after the spell ends, the NPC comes up to you and you have to persuade/intimidate them not to be hostile. Regardless, the NPC gets -100 attitude towards you. As for surrounding NPCs who witness this...idk, maybe any within 20 ft take a -30 attitude hit..?

In your example, are you saying that the guard you cast Friends on immediately became hostile, or only the surrounding guards? If the latter...then I think that makes sense, if maybe a bit extreme. You did just use magic to influence the mind of their ally; they don't know your full intentions. The casting of Friends is inherently problematic, in addition to any specific things you ask a target to do while Friendly.

They were inside trying to get the next door open and the spell expired after a minute as I was rescuing some one. It took me a while to figure out why they'd gone hostile at all.

Bard is fine as is but the thing is, you need a second bard in the party after that they become broken... Edit: OP

A little late coming back to this, but realised why Bardic Inspiration felt a bit underwhelming compared to table top. It applies to the next role, where as in pen and paper you can see what the role is before deciding to use it. As written each use has a good chance of turning a failure into a success, but in BG3's implementation there's a high chance of it being wasted. It kind of needs smart usage, as simple as it was only used when the degree of failure was within the inspiration dice's range. That would make it better and much closer to how it runs in P&P in practice. I think this feature underperforming is a major factor in why Bard felt a bit meh to me. Even as implemented it can still be strong with the right setup (like pushing through GWM hits along with a spell like Faerie Fire or Hold Person). But it should be a feature that it's a bit easier to get value out of.

Annoyingly I found some bard items while playing a Sorcerer as comparison (Cap of Curing in a chest tucked behind a pillar near Alfira in Druid Grove, Blazer of Benevolence from talking to Volo after rescuing him). The Bless from Whispering Promise doesn't seem to trigger on the Cap's healing which is kind of a pity.

All this things stacking: NO REST LIMITS, no cover system. high ground, bless, archery, Bardic Inspiration, items and how easy you get advantages in bg 3 all means you can hit anything anywhere anytime you want... if you have a bard around. IF it worked like in table top it would be even more broken but ok...

Quantifying it Bardic Inspiration isn't helping that much and in the best case scenario it's about 1/3 as impactful as implemented vs being rolled only when it has a chance to make a difference.

Just considering non-advantage attacks for now for simplicity, on a non advantage role assuming it's possible for 1-6 to be the range of failure (favourable assumption for BG3's implementation) the odds of it turning a failure into a success is about 17%. But the odds of turning a failure into a success if you only rolled is about 58%. There's the issue of if it's used but after 6 attacks it would be about 88% chance it's used, giving an expected about 51% chance of having turned a miss into a hit. Six attacks might sound like a lot but even in EA it's possible for a fighter to make 4 on their turn and possibly one as a reaction, the most I can think of Sorcerer making nine (3 x Scorching Ray). Without the rounding that's just about 1/3. If for example you are using it on Great Weapon Master attacks, realistically they will have an average damage of at least 20 on a great sword (10 GWM, 3 ability, 7 from 2d6). The bardic inspiration is contributing about expected 3.5 damage in this case, versus the 11 it "should" be contributing. That's pretty bad for a feature that takes a long rest resource and a bonus action.

Taking into account saving throws, quantifying its impact numerically is difficult, but assuming you would have wanted to avoid the effect it's more opportunity for the inspiration to work, which in practice makes it better, and more of a pity if it's wasted on an unnecessary role.

A quick side note if instead of rolling on a degree of failure from 1-6 you rolled it on a degree of failure from 1-5 it would have 80% chance of turning a failure to a success at the cost of a slightly lower chance of being rolled. After six attacks it would be about 66% chance to have turned a failure to a success. So it's more like four times better.

As for high ground and advantage, they make its loss in effectiveness worse. High ground makes it more likely the required roll range is such that inspiration will be wasted, advantage slightly pushed up the chance of turning a failure into a success but increases the chances of being rolled when not needed. And this is far from the biggest beneficiary from the lack of long meaningful long rest restrictions, that's kind of a whole different can of worms as far as balance goes.

A 1/3 effectiveness nerf to a feature is absolutely brutal.

Stacking was and always will be op as any video game player knows so i'll not go into it.

IF we had Emboldening Bond you would see that even more, but luckily we don't.

Anyway, we can wait for the next patch not long now, i guess. We will see what they did with reactions. Wish you luck! I'm ok with bard, It's op either way in my opinion.

The numbers just don't support that. If it seems good that's kind of placebo effect.

Stacking isn't automatically good, the actual expected damage contribution is super low. Any video game player knows how important action economy is. Even assuming the base 65% accuracy 5E is built around it's extremely situational that it's better than taking a pot shot with an off-hand hand crossbow. And pretty much impossible that it's better than the pot shot if the cross bow is dipped (and by extension dipping in a candle is much better expected damage contribution). Not even being worth a bonus action to use is appalling for a long rest resource. Contrast that with superiority dice for example: they are a separate resource a subclass gets on top of their class features, come back on a short rest, aren't used on a miss so will reliably get close to their 4.5 expected damage, deliver a secondary effect, don't take any action to apply to an attack.

I really can't see how Bardic inspiration is anything other than just bad at the moment. Even taking into account the hat it's still bad. At the moment a sorcerer can deal over 30 damage on a bonus action with the right equipment, admittedly at the expense of a first level spell slot and most of their unique resource. Or they can use a second level spell slot and get a bonus action back as well. Take away the busted items and the only real difference is you need a second level spell slot and better than 65% accuracy. That's where power curve is at right now, nerfing Bard's signature feature down to a fraction of it's effectiveness makes no sense.

You typing that means we have nothing to talk about at all, sorry. I guess we are playing different games in different way.

Like i said i like my way it turns every fight into a walkover you do you.