nope, there was no key and he was as dead as he can get. i went back several times looking. i always use alt when looking for something but thanks for the sugestion. this happened just once. i'm hoping it was a fluke. maybe it dropped in a wall or something, but it wasnt there. oh, in response to killing him again, how am i suposed to do that without a saved game to fall back on? by the time i realised i absolutly had to have the scroll, i had saved over it several times, lol.