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Okay. I'm now hoping for Yuan-ti Pureblood for BG3. Come on, Larian. I got a couple of characters I want to create with that race in mind.
I know it's a bit of a long shot, but... Gotta at least try.
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What would be the reason to say no to any race?  The more the better! Allways and every single time.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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What would be the reason to say no to any race? The more the better! Allways and every single time. The reason is simple... some among us, like me, don't like to see monsters become player races. And yes, for me even Drow and Duergar are already pushing it. Why can't people just play an ordinary elf, halfling, gnome, dwarf or human? Why does it have to be something outlandish like Tieflings or Dragonborn or even worse, a monster race? Yuan-Ti are monsters for a reason, same as goblins, kobolds and every other monster race someone may ask to play.
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some among us, like me, don't like to see monsters become player races. And yes, for me even Drow and Duergar are already pushing it.
Why can't people just play an ordinary elf, halfling, gnome, dwarf or human? Why does it have to be something outlandish like Tieflings or Dragonborn or even worse, a monster race?
Yuan-Ti are monsters for a reason, same as goblins, kobolds and every other monster race someone may ask to play. That's pretty much how I felt about this stuff when I first encountered it in NWN2. That said, BG3 already lacks any kind of wonder with most outlandish monster and races feeling very pedestrian. They might allow me at this point to play as an Observer and I don't think it would make a noticable difference.
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old hand
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The limit of what people find relatable as a character varies a lot between individuals. For some, something that deviate from human is pushing it. For others anything goes as long as it has a stat sheet. I think the current selection is an acceptable compromise that has a pretty good variety and doesn't make the plot a nightmare to work with.
Last edited by snowram; 12/10/22 09:47 AM.
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Why can't people just play an ordinary elf, halfling, gnome, dwarf or human? Oh thats simple ... Same reason Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes were even invented ... Humans are common, therefore they are boring for many people ... So we get someting rare, something exotic ... Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes ... But in time, they become so common, so they get boring. :P And the wheel of time keep turning. Yuan-Ti are monsters for a reason, same as goblins, kobolds and every other monster race someone may ask to play. I highly doubt we would be able to agree on what that reason even is. Or what it even mean to "be a monster" ... But i dont think that would change anything. :-/ Look at Drizzt Do'Urden ... he was (as it seems to me) to be the only Good (or at least not-Evil) Drow ... We all know that in fact he was just first one, that was inevidable. But Drows as a race are still concidered Evil ... so what actualy changed? And i mean in setting, not in particular games.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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The reason is simple... some among us, like me, don't like to see monsters become player races. And yes, for me even Drow and Duergar are already pushing it.
Why can't people just play an ordinary elf, halfling, gnome, dwarf or human? Why does it have to be something outlandish like Tieflings or Dragonborn or even worse, a monster race?
Yuan-Ti are monsters for a reason, same as goblins, kobolds and every other monster race someone may ask to play. You say it's for a reason... but then you don't actually give that reason. What is the 'reason' you're referring to? Care to explain? Why should monstrous races be an option available to Dms and potentially players? Because, for mortal races, evil is cultural not in-born; individual exceptions, through fluke of circumstance and opportunity, can and do exist, and it's important that they are allowed to. The part where most attention to this falls down is that it takes these exceptions and makes them bland and generic, because everyone and their dog just generally and immediately treats these rare and exceptional individuals as 'just the same' as all the other adventurers, right off the bat. There should be hesitation ,trepidation nad mistrust from at least a large portion of people; they are likely to have trouble being allowed in some towns (not everywhere, and a good DM ensures that it's never an absolute lock out or debilitation that party, as a whole, cannot overcome, but is should be a present issue that acts as a force upon the character, and lets them express themselves in how they deal with it). In the case of yuan-ti, 'purebloods' is a derogative, insulting term, and purebloods are the lowest of the low, in yuan-ti society, because they are basically human (or whatever other 'normal' humanoid race they owe part of their lineage to), with virtually no snake-like elements at all; they are very close to being an offence to all that it is to be yuan-ti, at least in the eyes of their own society. They can be successful if they're useful - as spies and infiltrators, often, but otherwise, they're the lowest and worst-treated caste of all and are taught to loath and hate themselves for the 'purity' of their blood, and to seek other ways to snake up a bit more... So, occasionally, you do indeed find cases of purebloods to look on other civilisations, and think it seems like a better choice. They *tend* to still carry a lot of the values and lessons of their society with them, even so - they very often still have incorporated a lot of the ruthless, selfish and emotion-minimising traits and values that yuan-ti society teaches into their own world view... but not always, and nevertheless if so, these individuals, rare as they are meant to be, can still find places amongst adventuring folks. But it is not easy for them - and that's an important part of what it's meant to be, to play a monstrous race character trying to be different. The important point to be made is that this doesn't risk the 'we still need evil things to fight' problem, as long as the player characters that do this are noted to be unusual exceptions to their otherwise still very much evilly-inclined cultures and societies; those are still there, or they should be... Unfortunately that crucial element is also the bit that modern day Wizards seems determined to erase... so... *shrugs*
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You say it's for a reason... but then you don't actually give that reason. What is the 'reason' you're referring to? Care to explain?
Why should monstrous races be an option available to Dms and potentially players? Because, for mortal races, evil is cultural not in-born; individual exceptions, through fluke of circumstance and opportunity, can and do exist, and it's important that they are allowed to. That's where our opinions differ, I take a deterministic approach and therefore believe that monsters are inherently evil without any choice. Basically like orcs and trolls in Middle-Earth, they are evil because they were created by evil and are incapable of being anything else. It's a matter of personal preference, I just happen to like my fantasy black and white and not in shades of grey.
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The important point to be made is that this doesn't risk the 'we still need evil things to fight' problem Is that a problem though? That we need "evil" things to fight? Can't our opponents simply have another perspective than ourselves without being tagged evil for the race or culture they come from? I still agree with you that a main character Yuan-ti pureblood would face prejudice and fear from many populations based on history etc but I don't agree with you that the fear and hate based on prejudice or general conception of a race is a crucial element. I don't know the general age demographic for dnd players but surely the majority should be old enough to understand moral and philosophical concepts that goes deeper than "me-good you-bad because someone says so". What is an evil-inclined society? From who's perspective and do members of that society share that?
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old hand
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Seems like this is a debate of nature vs nurture. The thing is, this isn't real life. RPG can have defined rules, so the moral compass can be defined as well. Some systems stick very closely to the alignment chart : morality isn't societal there, it is divine and transcend the life of the characters in it. DnD is part of those manichean role play games.
Last edited by snowram; 12/10/22 12:28 PM.
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It's a matter of personal preference, I just happen to like my fantasy black and white and not in shades of grey. Exactly, it's personal preference. So, if they were to add more "exotic races" to the CC, you could just choose to not pick it. Seems like a win-win to me. You get to pick more conservative/common races, and those who want the other ones can pick them. Is that a problem though? That we need "evil" things to fight? Can't our opponents simply have another perspective than ourselves without being tagged evil for the race or culture they come from?
I still agree with you that a main character Yuan-ti pureblood would face prejudice and fear from many populations based on history etc but I don't agree with you that the fear and hate based on prejudice or general conception of a race is a crucial element. I don't know the general age demographic for dnd players but surely the majority should be old enough to understand moral and philosophical concepts that goes deeper than "me-good you-bad because someone says so". What is an evil-inclined society? From who's perspective and do members of that society share that? +1! I actually like, for instance, what they did with Drows (controversial I know). Some NPCs would attack on sight or be extra agressive (Damays, Nymessa, Jeorna, an ox...), other would be more open minded (like Tieflings who might know better since they are often seen as just fiend/evil), some are cautious but might welcome good deeds (Zevlor, Arabella's parents, Barcus Wroot đź’ś...) and some even appreciate them just for being a Drow (Kagha, Goblins, Duegars and fellow Drows...more or less). I prefer that instead of everyone attacking you on sight or not talking to you...just cause. That would be seeing NPCs as a boring monolith. Seems like this is a debate of nature vs nurture. The thing is, this isn't real life. RPG can have defined rules, so the moral compass can be defined as well. Some systems stick very closely to the alignment chart : morality isn't societal there, it is divine and transcend the life of the characters in it. DnD is part of those manichean role play games. DnD used to be like that, not as much anymore.
Last edited by MelivySilverRoot; 12/10/22 12:45 PM.
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I was thinking about this little more ... And maybe i have found single reason that would be acceptable to me for why not implement Yuan-ti Pureblood specificaly ... and that is lack of proper reaction on evil races. :-/ I know we were talking about this elsewhere, but i feel like it fits here aswell ... I was quite exited when i created my Githyanki, or Lolthsworn Drow ... And also quite disapointed when NPCs simply said "i usualy dont thrust your kind, but ..." and then regular talking started. I mean ... I dont say its unbareable, i get used to it ... but it sucks to create super rare, extremely gated race in general ... just to get litteraly exactly the same experience as every single boring and common Human. So maybe ... just maaaaaaaaaaaybe ... it would be better to not go into really super exotic, super evil, super hated race ... bcs it would suck in the end anyway. Seems like a win-win to me. It is ... But thats not how it works in games.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/10/22 02:53 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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I want Goblins to be playable, I have so many ideas and plans for one.
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I was thinking about this little more ... And maybe i have found single reason that would be acceptable to me for why not implement Yuan-ti Pureblood specificaly ... and that is lack of proper reaction on evil races. :-/ I know we were talking about this elsewhere, but i feel like it fits here aswell ... I was quite exited when i created my Githyanki, or Lolthsworn Drow ... And also quite disapointed when NPCs simply said "i usualy dont thrust your kind, but ..." and then regular talking started. I mean ... I dont say its unbareable, i get used to it ... but it sucks to create super rare, extremely gated race in general ... just to get litteraly exactly the same experience as every single boring and common Human. So maybe ... just maaaaaaaaaaaybe ... it would be better to not go into really super exotic, super evil, super hated race ... bcs it would suck in the end anyway. Seems like a win-win to me. It is ... But thats not how it works in games. In this actually hits on why I created the post as just a yes or no. If they create a new race and add it, that means they have to add various dialogue options or choices based on the tag for that race. Otherwise it's just a cosmetic addition with a few minor mechanical tweaks. To do the race right, they would need to add more than just a one-liner. Still, I think it would be worth it, just as I think it would be worth it if they developed more dialogue options for each race that already exists. As for why more exotic races, that is more for people who have been playing D&D forever. After you've played the same three or four races over and over and over again, you really do start looking for something new and maybe a little different that catches the eye and draws attention. It's about adding flavor, just like Ragnarok was saying. The same old races get pretty boring after a while.
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My base line is that I'm for more playable races, all the time – but I want the more unusual ones to be handled well, and for the player to get a decent amount of crunch pay-off that acknowledges the unusual choice they've made. It's a let down, and bland besides, if everyone acts like everyone is human, without out any kind of acknowledgement of difference. I even get a little annoyed when text or dialogue is written in a way that supposes my height to be average sized (“As you pull the book down from the top shelf, you notice...”, "The mire is about two feet deep, and it slows your progress; as you wade through, water sloshing at your knees, you feel..", etc.), when I'm a halfling, because the game is nullifying my choice when it does so. I'm going to drop my other responses into spoilers because I feel like it's getting a little off-topic. There are lots of threads that discuss this matter elsewhere. Because, for mortal races, evil is cultural not in-born; individual exceptions, through fluke of circumstance and opportunity, can and do exist, and it's important that they are allowed to. That's where our opinions differ, I take a deterministic approach and therefore believe that monsters are inherently evil without any choice. You're free and welcome to have a preference in your fantasy for how you'd like to imagine things... but as long as we're talking about D&D in the established realm spaces that we currently have, I'm sorry, but you're just simply incorrect here. There's no subjective opinion about it – there is simply a fact of how the realms are set up, and you're wrong. You can set up your world that way at your own table, absolutely – but canonically, that's not how it is. I'll note again that you still didn't actually give a 'reason' after the bold and strong claim that they were that way for a reason... what is the reason you insisted existed before? As I said though... understanding this does not actually run afoul of the problem that you yourself seem to be a good example of; you like and want simple black and white to fight, and that's fine, that's great... mortal races don't need to be inherently evil for that to still be a comfortable space you can occupy, though, because the evil in mortal races in cultural, and inherent also still evil exists beyond that in other entities across the planes and even on the material. The important point to be made is that this doesn't risk the 'we still need evil things to fight' problem Is that a problem though? That we need "evil" things to fight? Can't our opponents simply have another perspective than ourselves without being tagged evil for the race or culture they come from? It does become a problem if taken too far. Yes, it can be exciting and interesting to work with the myriad of grey-shaded morality and deal with difficult questions of right and wrong, morality and ethical action, and all of that... but if every conflict becomes a moral quandary, that very quickly stops being fun for most players. We still need 'simple' evil, that's black and white and easy to fight, without internal conflict or greyness. Remember that evil in the realms is nuanced; it is defined predominately by Selfishness. Evil characters put their own needs ahead of others, and give less value to the needs or rights of others; they view their goals, their rights, their safety and their property as more important, more valuable and more worthwhile than other peoples'. This is the core outlook that creates the knock on effect that we see creating the myriad different types of evil action that villains tend to take. An evil society is one that is underpinned by a similar destructive selfishness – a society that is internally ruthless, and which values other peoples and other societies less than their own; generally one which places little value on the lives, comforts or safeties of its individual members, save as behind what they can secure for themselves at the cost of others, to get ahead. Yuan-ti society is an evil society, and yuan-ti who live within it, shape their lives by it, and view it as the 'right' way to exist, are by extension evil characters – but they are not 'inherently' evil, and individuals that buck this social construct can and do exist. Most don't live long unless they get out. Just to be clear... I still agree with you that a main character Yuan-ti pureblood would face prejudice and fear from many populations based on history etc but I don't agree with you that the fear and hate based on prejudice or general conception of a race is a crucial element. I did not say they were. Please do not characterise me as saying that. I said hesitation, trepidation and mistrust; caution and reservation based on known elements of the majority of that society from which they come, even if they are no longer a part of it. Decent people don't hate irrationally, and decent people would not... but they could be expected to show mistrust initially, hesitation, trepidation and caution that is motivated by the evidence known of every other member of that culture that they have encountered or known of previously – and again, as I said, this is not an everyone-always thing, this is just a common occurrence; off-setting it, you will have many who will simply take at face value that a yuan-ti apart from her people and working as an adventurer with others is different, and will treat them just as fairly as they would anyone else... but it won't always be the case, and it shouldn't be. The fight to redefine other people's understanding, and to show them who you are, different from who they worry you may be, is and should remain an element that players of monstrous races work with – and how they, as characters, deal with that is a juicy bit of personal definition and development. = If you want inherent evil, the realms has plenty of that too; fiends and celestials are the most prominent example, but numerous other entities and creature types exist that have external, objective, good or evil baked into their very essence. Despite what some have said about Wizard's latest actions, that aspect isn't going anywhere. There exists it the realms tangible, objective, very real good and evil as literal things... it's just that mortal races and individual members of mortal sapient creatures are not considered to be in that bundle any more.
Last edited by Niara; 13/10/22 01:25 PM.
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that means they have to add various dialogue options or choices based on the tag for that race. They certainly should ... The question is: Will they? You say that one-liner wouldnt be sufficient ... And i agree it wouldnt ... but it isnt even for allready existing races. I mean maybe i got something wrong but i dont think common people of Faerun makes difference between "evil", "eviler" and "evilest" ... In my opinion it dont really matter if you were caught by Drow, Duergar, Githyanki, or Yuan-ti ... either way you will be enslaved or killed (not necesarily in this order tho*). So since Larian made it quite clear if you ask me that they concider one-liner to be enough for everyone else ... What if anything makes you think that they wouldnt follow the same path here? //Edit: Therefore i believe that THE REAL QUESTION here is: Would you accept Yuan-ti Pureblood if reactions on them would be as poor as dissatisfying as they are for any other evil race? I must admit that i would. Wouldnt love it obviously but i gues i would get used to that. --- *i just realized something not exactly related to topic: Nere was right those Dwarves are incompetent ... They had one Necromancer but send him out to track a Gnome ... instead of having him in camp raising dead bodies to clear that cavein faster ... One could argue that he was their only tracker ... except he wasnt there is also that spider trainer sitting on his ass in Grymforge doing nothing Meanwhile two another Duergars were pushing perfectly good corpses into the water ...
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 13/10/22 08:45 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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There's an interesting point that just came to me regarding the Yuan-Ti and Gith. Would the average person in faerun even know what they are? The sense I get from them is that unless you're schooled in planar lore, you probablyhave no idea what they even are. Hell, I'm sure there are plenty of people who could be convinced that a githyanki is just a particularly human-looking dragonborn. They'd have little to no reason to know that gith are evil as a rule and wouldn't be likely to react to them based on that knowledge. Unlike Drow, who at least live in the material plane and do stuff that harms regular people consistently.
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In general you are probably right ...
But the only settlement we in fact visit (at least in EA) that would actualy care about our Githyanki origin, is the Grove, full of Tieflings ... where certain "Zoru" told everyone about those weird people who murdered his friends in cold blood.
And yet, nobody seems to care. O_o
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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I voted no, but that is not because I wouldn't want it.
Adding exotic races requires a special approach and probably a campaign suited for it. A DM would need to create a believeble way to intruduce such a character. BG3, I believe, won't have a suitable setting for adding such a race and thus I would prefer it not added if it would be cosmetic only (a few reactions here and there aren't enough for a monster race, like Kendaric already said - even drow and duergar are pushing it in that regard).
And I would prefer Larian to focus on other things than adding a monster race, at least for now.
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old hand
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old hand
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I voted no, but that is not because I wouldn't want it.
Adding exotic races requires a special approach and probably a campaign suited for it. A DM would need to create a believeble way to intruduce such a character. BG3, I believe, won't have a suitable setting for adding such a race and thus I would prefer it not added if it would be cosmetic only (a few reactions here and there aren't enough for a monster race, like Kendaric already said - even drow and duergar are pushing it in that regard).
And I would prefer Larian to focus on other things than adding a monster race, at least for now. That is very true, I feel like the only exotic races that make sense here are Giths since the plot is centered around them.
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