Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General The One D&D project. Thoughts?

A Dm could take it upon themselves to do that, yes (to Dwig), and any DM running a custom campaign in their own world space absolutely would, if they're a conscientious DM, absolutely - or at least to define the way certain cultures exist and how the history of their world ha affected the various races of creature that re found there. However, a default still needs to exist that has enough flavour and soul to play with, for those who aren't ready or able enough to do that, but who still wish to play or run a game with their friends. We don't have a FR campaign setting book; SCAG covered a few cities on the sword coast, but it's not a campaign setting, not like the eberron book, for example. FR takes its cues from the default books - the PHB, DMG and Monster Manuel; those books provide a workable amount of background lore and flavour for the things they describe, and they are then treated as the default for Forgotten Realms spaces (no, it's not the other way around, despite what some people want to claim).

If all of that is removed, then there won't be any lore for the FR to use - so a campaign book for FR itself will then need to be published in its place, and the PHB, MM and DMG will become incredibly dry, soulless books that, on their own, are no longer sufficient for a group to pick-up-and-play with a reasonable setting and background to work in. This was the original intention of the way those initial books were written; technically setting agnostic, but with enough flavour to inform a world space for people just picking up the game; that was a strong thrust of the design. Maybe wizards are intending to do this, so they can sell more book - who knows - but there's been no word of such as yet.

Here's an example:


This block is about halflings in general; it gives a feeling and flavour for what sort of a people they are, by default; it's a setting agnostic description, as it does not mention any locations of world-identifying events... but it provides enough of a picture of this people for new players to get their teeth into and run with. It's not about adventurers, so much as it's about the general baseline for everyday halflings, which an adventurer may be a prime representative of, or an outlier from, as the player decides.

Compare this to a more recent publication, in the 'new' style:


That's it. That's all there is. I can't play to or against that, because there's nothing there to play to or against... I could go to other books (which new players may not own or have access to), and try to build up a picture of this people's default culture and place in the world, but none of them will talk about these fairy people; they're not mentioned anywhere else, at all, because every other source will only speak of other groups of fey, whom this playable race is specifically called out as not being. This one is empty, soulless and dry; there's nothing to really get your teeth into here, and a new player hasn't been given anything to work with to ground this race in a setting.

I do not want this to be the norm going forward, thank you - I would much rather have race introduction pages like the top one; I already know that if they aren't quite that way in my custom campaign space, I'll note that fact, and describe it... but the original block by default has a wealth of flavour for players who do not have something like that in mind beforehand, and that's important. It's not something we should lose.

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Anyhow... I said I'd give my comments/perspective on Rogue and ranger, so, let's see...

I'm going to jump over ranger for today and go to rogue.. ranger has a lot of other considerations, while rogue has been fairly solid, so I'll do the simpler one first ^.^

Basics:

- Rogues are losing performance as a base skill option, without replacement; no real reason for this and it denies rogues who wish to play face and fake it, or run cons.
- Rogues would lose longswords (which is not finesse), but gain scimitars and whips; this is the result of them gaining proficiency in all finesse weapons regardless of their simple or martial category, and it's also future-proofed such that any new finesse weapons will also be automatically included. This is a pretty decent update.

1st level, we get expertise as usual, thieves' cant and sneak attack.

Sneak attack is... not good. They've restricted it to being specifically an attack that you make with the attack action, on your turn. What this means is that you literally cannot lie in wait for someone, ready to spring down on top of them by surprise with a sneak attack - the very definition of what a sneak attack usually is, and you cannot do it. If you ready yourself, and surprise someone who doesn't know you are there, when they enter the room... no sneak attack, and that's just plain stupid. I understand what the attempt was here - but it would be better done if they limited sneak attack to once Per Round when you hit a creature with an attack. This would still limit you from getting multiple sneak attacks in a round, which is what they want to do, but still allow you to actually sneak attack from ambush, which is what the players often want to do.

They've clarified the conditions but subtly changed the mechanic in the process as well - in the current version of rogue, the alternate condition if you don't have advantage is that our target must be occupied/distracted by something else - i.e. that they have a creature hostile to them within 5 feet. This meant that if your sneak attack target was being harried by a wild animal in the woods, then that would be a perfect opportunity to get a quick sneak attack in. this would no longer work in the new document, as the harrying creature must specifically be your ally, not just something hostile to your target. I disagree with this change too; the point is that your target has more to consider and pay attention to, not that you have a friend near them. It shouldn't be restricted in this way.

Thieves Cant has been... blandified. It's just treated as a basic language here, and we've lost any description for what it actually is. I'd have preferred more flavour for using thieves' cant, not less. It was always a niche ability, and I could see it being entirely reworked to be more accessible and more useful more often - just removing its flavour and side mechanics doesn't actually do that, in my opinion. More should be done with this.

At level 2, cunning action is more or less unchanged, but the small changes to hide will have a knock-on effect here. One change that has crept in here is that the existing stipulation that you can only use your cunning action in combat has been removed. I'm fairly certain that most tables ignored or weren't aware of that to being with, though. I'm on the fence; cunning action is supposed to represent quick burst and sly shifts - using cunning action to sprint faster than the barbarian across long distances wasn't ever is intended purpose... but I'd be lying if I tried to say I haven't used cunning action for extra dashing in non-combat situations before.

5th level, Uncanny dodge is largely unchanged too, saving only differences in the terminology as they change it. No improvement, no detriment.

Our next shot of expertise has moved up to 7th level, from originally being at 6th - though this is to make way for a change in subclass features, so the value of that change will depend on your subclass.

Shuffling down, Evasion has been moved from 7th level out to 9th level, which honestly hurts a bit. They've update the wording to specify that you can't use your evasion if you're incapacitated. This makes sense, and I approve of the definition restriction, but the level shift hurts.

The shuffling of levels has meant that you're now getting a subclass feature, and an ASI/Feat, at the same level - this is something that they've usually tried to avoid, so as to never swamp or overwhelm the player with too much at once, and to make sure they always get something nice each level. I'd caution against them doing this here - of finding another way to arrange things that doesn't give two big things at the same time - but they've created extra features to the point that there isn't anywhere else to shuffle this anyway.

Reliable Talent, at 11, has had its wording tightened up, which results in a small restriction - it's not one that's liable to come up often, but it can do in the case of multiclassing, and in terms of future-proofing, so I'm not entirely sure I agree. Currently, Reliable talent lets you treat any roll of less than 10 on the die as a 10 on the die, if it's an ability check you add your proficiency to. The new document narrows this down to skill and tool checks that you are proficient with - which knocks out any other ability check that isn't a tool or skill check, and there are some side cases that grant you the use of proficiency for those. This is niche, and it likely won't be noticed too much either way... but supposing a new feature from somewhere grants a class or subclass proficiency on initiative checks, or on flat ability score checks in particular circumstances, reliable talent will no longer work for those.

We get a new feature at 13th level, which is replacing Blindsense, the existing 14th level feature, which has been entirely removed. the new feature that replaces it is Subtle Strikes - it's not anything new or interesting, and doesn't really add any flavour tot he class - it's just a mechanical improvement on what you already have, namely that if the alternate conditions for your sneak attack are met, you also now get advantage anyway. More notable is that this means that you can always have your sneak attack as long as you're attacking something next to an ally, regardless of your own condition, since this auto-advantage will cancel out any disadvantage you have, and the secondary sneak attack condition will be met regardless. This is a powerful perk, but it's also, to me at least, a very boring one. I don't like it, thematically, despite its potency. I'm also not happy about losing blindsense; the existing perk is another way to negate disadvantages and ensure you can get your sneak attack, but it's more interesting, and has more flavour to it than this one, even if it's not quite as powerful.

Slippery Mind at 15th has been buffed to include Charisma saving throws as well as Wisdom. I'm not sure of the justification, but I won't say no to an extra saving throw proficiency. This gives rogues proficiency in all mental saves, and a rogue that uses a feat to pick up resilient will have 5 out of 6 saves proficient, which isn't half bad.

Elusive comes in earlier, at 17th, now, instead of 18th level in the current rules. It's unchanged, however. The earlier level here is to make room for the capstone changes.

Similarly, Stroke of Luck now comes in at 18 instead of 20, and it's received a substantial buff! Currently, stroke of luck lets you turn a miss into a hit, or a failed ability check into a 20 roll (which should be a success, since your DM shouldn't generally be asking for a check from you if success isn't possible to begin with). the new wording uses their new terminology for a 'd20 test', which means by proxy that this perk now also includes Saving Throws, which it does not currently do. An even bigger buff here is that it lets you turn the roll into a 20 on the die, and the new 'test' terminology includes attack rolls... so this ability functionally lets you turn a missed attack into a critical hit, at will, once per short rest. This is a MASSIVE buff to an already strong capstone feature... it's a buff so great that I'm actually quite leery of it... other classes have exceptionally weak and underwhelming capstone features (like bard, for example), and they haven't buffed those or made them even particularly satisfying... so I'm leery about them buffing one of the already very strong capstone even further.

Finally, at 20, we get an epic boon now, as part of the new push they're making to try to make epic boons more visible and potentially more used at high levels. I'm pretty okay with this, honestly. I like the idea.

So, all up, core Rogue hasn't changed too much. It's mostly restriction and reductions, though, with a few dangerously over-strong buffs in specific places. They've shifted perks around, and in most cases this means getting familiar perks later, and new ones sooner.

The subclass we have to look at is Thief, and I'm genuinely quite unhappy about what they're doing here. Thief is a subclass close to my heart, for its flexibility and interesting applications that don't require a major character investment in its aesthetic unless you want it to. It's always been a subtle but reliable subclass with a lot of flavour hooks. So, what have we got?

Fast Hands: The new document gives Fast Hands the Search action, which is an extra thing it couldn't do before, however, it's had its other elements heavily restricted to compensate, and I'm not convinced the trade is worth it. In the current rules, you can use your cunning action to make any kind of slight of hand check that may suit (including picking pockets, but also including many other possibilities), and also to use objects - this includes environmental things, like pulling levers and so on, but also includes using other items from your kit, such as ball-bearings, alchemist's fire, caltrops, or any other non-magical item that would otherwise take your action to use.

The new document restricts this; using items is gone entirely, and the slight of hand check is exclusively for picking pockets now, and nothing else. It also doesn't allow for alternate ability checks as the current feature does - if, for example, it's a simple but stiff lock, and the DM would ask you to make a Strength check with your thieves tools to open it, you cannot do that with the new Fast Hands, but you can with the current one. Giving Fast Hands the Search action does not, in my opinion, make up for this spread of utility nerfs to the feature.

Second Story Work: They've formalised the first section as giving you a climbing speed - this is effectively what the current ability does, so clarifying this into formal terms is a positive thing. The other part of this is dependant upon their ridiculous jump-as-an-action rule, in the same document, and we've already covered that that is stupid as balls. I disagree with replacing the strength in jumping entirely, that said - no amount of acrobatic flips is going to help you jump across that thirty foot chasm any better. Making long and high jumps is athletic and requires strength. A Dm might rule that Dex is appropriate if the specific circumstance allows for it (such as there being walls and other structures for you to utilise in place of raw force of leaping), but that's circumstantial and cannot be placed into the universal base rule. I felt the same about the feature in the current rules too, but it's a much more subtle effect there, and can be folded into the art of good body movement, since it's not replacing using your strength for the jump. Adding is better than replacing in this case, and I think they should stay to that principle.

Supreme Sneak has been brought down to 6th level, from 9th, and it's been buffed - or rather, the restriction it currently has has been lifted. Currently you gain its benefit as long as you don't use more than half your movement; this did get a little bit hairy to be sure about with different movement speeds (If I have a land speed of 30 and a swim speed of 60, and I run 20 feet to the water and dive in... do I have advantage on my hide check? I've used more than half of my land speed, but less than half of my swim speed, and I'm now swimming... It's not entirely clear). The new version removes that caveat, and adds in a different one (can't be wearing medium or heavy armour) - which literally no 6th level rogue is EVER going to have to think about anyway, so it may as well functionally not exist. It's an odd stipulation - I'd rather they remove it, or put in a stipulation that's more of a clear trade, one way or the other. No-one with six levels in rogue will be wearing medium or heavy armour, and the odd cases where you do find t, it'll be a character choice, and presumably somethig that that specific character is practised in, so... it probably shouldn't apply to them either. Something more tangibly rogue appropriate that is an actual choice the rogue might make turn to turn would be better here, I think.

Now here's the bad one:

Use Magic Device.13th level UMD for thief rogues is, for many players, the real meat of why they want to play a thief rogue - the ability to attune or use magic items with race/class/level restrictions opens up a world of interesting and fun possibilities and options, and entrenches thief rogue as the versatile, use-what-you-have rogue archetype - found that very rare staff of fire, but don't have a druid, sorcerer, warlock or wizard in your party (or have a wizard who is full on attunement and doesn't want to swap it)? Rogue can make use of it. Or a rogue who found a staff of healing, and has unwittingly gone from charlatan faith healer into actually legitimate healer and is pondering their life choices now... Loads of fascinating possibilities here.

That's all gone.

The main feature, the sell point poster feature of Thief rogue has been removed.

Instead we can attune one extra magic item, and we're better at spending item charges more efficiently. These are useful, but ultimately boring and dry buffs - it's not giving us an interesting new feature to play around with, or anything with any actual flavour... just mechanical utility in a bland wrapper. the only other concession that we get here is the ability to use scrolls - something covered in full already by the existing UMD - and have to make a check to do so for any scroll past 1st level. It's certainly no replacement for being able to trick and fake magic item requirements. Niara is a very unhappy girl. Hmph. So mad.

Lastly, Thief Reflexes: the current version for this lets you take two turns on the first round of combat, provided you're not surprised - This feature sort of assumes your rogue tends to be good with initiative, which as a dex character they generally will be, but short of extra feats and features, that strong base modifier won't stop you rolling bottom of the barrel sometimes. It's an interesting feature all the same, as it lets you convert the flexibility and utility of the class into real combat effectiveness.

The new document gives a much different feature; proficiency bonus times per long rest, you can take a second cunning action on your turn. Hey, Larian! Pay attention! This is a way that you can give our a second bonus action in a balanced, restricted, yet still useful way. This change likely came hand in hand with their desire to lock down hard on rogues only getting one sneak attack per round, and I can understand that. As it is, it's not bad... but it's also not interesting; it's just giving you more of what you already do, and it's very dry.

In fact, I'm going to make that my take-away criticism of the current direction these class updates have been taking so far: They're Boring!! Numerous restrictions nerfs and reductions aside, they're bland and dry, mechanically noteworthy but completely devoid of soul. They often just give you flat mechanical buffs and extensions on the things you start with, giving you 'more of the same', rather than 'something interesting and new' to play with. I consider this a heavy criticism of the reworks as they are currently presented.

Anyhow, that's my twenty cents on Rogue... what are other folks' thoughts?