Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General No middle ground?

There was something that bothered me about dialogues ... and it bothered me a lot, even tho i wasnt exactly sure what was it ... but i believe i finaly cracked the nut, even tho i must admit it took me a while.

There is no middle ground, we are moving from extreme to extreme, never stop in the middle ...

Few examples:

- Arabella (yup, this again) ...
> shes basicaly sentenced to death ... i mean Kagha clearly said that she want her locked up until ritual is compelted, and anyone who will be inside the Grove and not a Druid after ritual will be finished, will be killed.
> or she can go without any punishment.

Suggested middle ground:
Spank her ... or demand her parents to do so, and refuse to leave until they do ... or demand that they punish her somehow ... since concidering her tone while she say "mom please, im allright" she didnt seem to take any lesson of this experience. :-/
Feel free to let her parents get angry on us, in other words include consequences ... for us, and for her.

- Meli (the Tiefling kid who stole the idol from one of Aradin's companions)
This one isnt actualy *that bad* bcs there are possible satisfying outcomes ... if you play your cards right ... but if you dont ...
> you can support the child right from the start, Barth get nothing, child is prefectly safe and his crime remain hidden ... the problem is, the child starts roast Barth quite too much, so our Tav would need to be blind, deaf, stupid and ignorant all together to still believe he just helped the inocent child ...
That isnt necesarily a bad thing ... i can imagine several of my characters who would either not care if the child is guilty, or would took his side anyway ... but what if you wish to play Lawfull Good Paladin? Striking a child is bad ... but leave thief without a punishment is potentialy even worse ...

Suggested middle ground:
Add there some option to say that we still want to know whats going on, and that we meerely were trying to avoid the violence ...
Of course, if we will find out that the child indeed stole the locked, there should be consequences ... again.

- Marina Brothers.
> This example belongs more to that topic about choices and consequences ...
But same as it is with Arka ... no matter what we do, they allways end up dead ... even if we rush into swamp before them and kill every-single-being there before they even enter it, Hag included, once we get out, we find their corpses.
I mean, technicaly they may have trigger some trap ... but still. :-/

- Astarion ... first encounter.
> When you first meet him you have 3 dialogue option ... wich all leads to same outcome > you accepted his apology. The only existing alternative is attacking him with other party member before you accept it, or attack him yourself after.

Suggested middle ground:
Allow us to attack astarion back ... or at the very least punch him in the face ...
In ideal world, when he bow and apology, we would have option to atempt to break his nose and then mockingly bow and apolgy, just as he did ... wouldnt even mind to start with negative attitude from him honestly.

- True soul Nere.
This one is quite weird, bcs as far as i remember (and yes, maybe i should have replayed it again before start writing this topic) your options are either side with Nere and betray Duergars ... or let him side with Duergars and betray you ...
Again, not exactly against his character ... basicaly i like he acts this way, it fits him well ...

But some middle ground is once again missing here ...
Several of them actualy:

I mean Nere is True Soul ... and Duergars we are talking about are loayal to to the Absolute ...
But we are True Soul aswell ... and therefore we should have option to Persuate their comander to follow us instead, bcs the Absolute allready showed that Nere have lost her favour, when he ended up behind that cave in ...

Then there is that Duergar elder who dont give a shit about the Absolute and all he wants is Gold ...
Nere promises him to pay after he kills us ...
Why cant we point out that all Nere give him so far was empty promises ... or even better counter that offer? We can offer him all Nere Gold, instead of just their payment ... we could even outbid Nere offer, and offer them double instead ...
And we KNOW that he would accept that, bcs that is exactly what he do, if we agreed on this betrayal before we saved Nere ...


You start seeing the patern here?
You can allways ignore what is happening to you or kill the one who is reponsible, no matter how extreme that would be ... nothing in between.

Please tell me, is that all just my imagination?
Or Larian indeed forget that there should be option C? (And sometimes even B.)
Have you encountered any other situations where you felt like you have no actual choice?

+1

I wouldn't consider "spanking" Arabella or some other suggestions you've made to be middle ground but I think I get what you're trying to say xD

And I agree. I've also felt some missing options here and there. I've mentioned this in the thread Thoughts after year away from EA but since it fits this thread, I'll copy-paste some parts that are pertinent here, paraphrase others. I hope that's ok.

Indeed, we are sometimes prompted with options that are very black and white.

Here are two examples of this occurring in dialogues with Astarion.


All options feel invasive to me.
How about adding at least one option that respects boundaries by just saying something like "Alright. As you wish/prefer/like."
It's possible to do so with the others. Why not here?


1. and 2. are the type of response an overly-eager hero or a walking-teddybear would give. That's too much even for my good characters.
3. It's just too sadistic for me to pick this. Although sometimes in my head I change the word "funny" to "fun", so it makes it ok to pick...Because adventuring is fun. Idk. I don't like those prompts ok x) ?

I would love
- More neutral/gray answers (not talking about the alignement) : it would be nice to have options that don't show all our cards, or turn us into an open book, or force us to choose between being a doormat or a sadistic prick.
- More humorous answers (think Purple Hawke in DA2) : it would be nice to have sarcastic/quippy/funny options that aren't necessarily mean, sadistic or belittling.

With that in mind, one alternative for the second example : "True. Although, she did put the romance in necromance I guess".

The point is that she should be punished somehow ... doesnt really matter how ...
To me, slap her ass few times is quite suitable punishment, concidering she could have provoked genocide ... luckily enough i was there to make it happen ... eh i mean to prevent it! O:)

Even tho i must say for this matter that lack of physical punishments in modern media seems quite disturbing to me ... many childern then come to false asumption that no matter what they do, nobody can harm them ...
And that is dangerous mindset for countless reasons.

That and the fact that every single time i say this, mamy people around starts to imagine childern almost beaten to death (i was going to give more specific description, but this should surfice) ... while nobody imagine childern stuck in 1x1m box thrown into darkness for several days, when i mention grounding.
Odd ...
It seems there are some unhealthy presumtions in our society. :-/

This is actualy great and quite funny example ...
Since all they needed to do was:
4) *Nod and leave.*

No futher interaction, no futher comentaries ... just one regular person accepting wish of another for silence.

This seems like matter of taste ...
To me, second option seems grey enough ... even tho they could have left the second part and leave with just: "At least we tryed."

That would sound better.

Agreed ...
+ it would be nice to have more often options that ARE mean, sadistic, or belittling ... whatever the last thing is.
(Ok i googled, it ... and yes it would.)

Larian should understand that IF they want to give us option to be cruel sadistic asshole ... we need option to be cruel sadistic asshole all the time!
Aswell as if we dont wish to be cruel sadistic asshole, we should have option not to be.

Oh boy. I'm going to go ahead and nope/ignore the first section because I strongly disagree with you but there is no point in starting that debate here. I hope that's ok with you.


Yes! I forgot to mention that!

I would love to see more often the option to just "*Nod*" or "*Shake heads no*"!!!


Oh yes, of course. I've only specified "not necessarily mean[...]" because I remember thinking that the only quippy options I was prompted with were quite mean.
I don't remember any specific one at the minute (Sorry). I think it was mostly with Gale?

What a twisted and disturbing viewpoint.

@MelivySilverRoot
Totally okey, maybe its for the best ... some things require lots of time to be represented properly. :-/

Anyway ...
I was thinking about this futher and i though about if Larian isnt shy with dialogue options to not end up in permutation hell as they did with Shadowheart.
(Swens words not mine ... ok, they are mine, but im still paraphrasing him.)

Personaly i certainly wouldnt mind if several options would lead to same outcome ... just to add flavour, or nuances ...

Take this again as an example:
Outcome A - i have no idea where to put this.
1) *Give his shoulder a reassuring squeeze.*

Outcome B - Acceptance:
2) We dont need to, but we can ... prehaps later.
3) As you wish. > Leave.
4) *You nod and leave.*
5) You know what? I dont think i care anymore.

Outcome C - Denial:
6) Yes we do. We need to know what the parasite's up to.
7) I dont want to push on you, but we need to be sure we didnt miss anything.
8) Just quit whining and tell me.
9) So you'd rather just tremple in fear like a coward?

You still have basicaly 3 outcomes from that conversation ... but by adding another flavoured responces, wider variety of Tavs is possible to play.

Mostly agree with the OP. I guess there are only so many dialogue options you can give the player before they become too difficult to manage in the game world. A lot of the scenes we are involved in are just there to set the tone for the player I feel. If you agree with Kaga and condemn Arabella, you are essentially taking an evil path. Save her and make her promise to think about her actions before doing anything like that again, you are taking the good path. So yeah, I agree there is not much in the way of middle ground but there is enough to keep the story flowing. Besides, being fed to a bugbear would probably be a more effective deterrent than a sore bum.

I also agree with the basic point of the OP. But this is something I've noticed in several other RPGs as well. The dialogue and quest resolution options are all always the two extremes - do something utterly drastic and dramatic or have a very mild response or just walk away. And as with other similar issues I have, I attribute this to the poor quality of the writers and their complete lack of imagination.

I mean this 'extremism' is often a result of dumb alignment systems (light/dark side, paragon/renegade, good/evil etc.) or the writers developing only two (or just a few) generic 'paths' for the player to take. In a twisted way, it is becoming reminiscent of contemporary polarization (especially in regards of anything political)...

But +1, please add more "Witcher" options and be less like KotOR or Mass Effect - to be fair, those games sometimes had neutral/centric options, but players were actively discouraged from them due to stupid alignment/reward mechanisms.

Witcher might have an opposite problem - most options are close to the center - but in those games it makes perfect sense given the character we're playing. BG3 needs to have a wider spectrum.

Especially in my 1st (and possibly only) playthrough, I would like to role play myself as much as I can, and BG3 makes it hard sometimes given the lack of 'rational' choices (although it is FAR from being the worst in this regard). I would be more than willing to sacrifice the ability to play as an origin character for that...

+1!

Another moment that bugs me a bit :
In the dark crypt, after defeating the skeletons. We have those dialogue options with Shadowheart (screen from a youtube vid):

On my first/blind playthrough, I immediately wanted to point out that there probably was something valuable about. But no such option was presented. In fact, I find that no option fitted my character 🫤.

Option 1) Technically, I don't "fully" agree. I thought at that point that there might be more than just "dusty baubles". This option matches a little too much with SH's tone. I was not that triggered by the event 😅
Option 2) There is some truth here. We did intrude. But I would not have said "We should have left this place untouched". We have nothing. We have to find artefacts/goods that might help us in our perils. Plus, adventuring and dungeon delving is fun 💛

I would love an option that says something like "Well…Where there are angry walking skeletons, there's bond to be some valuable artefacts.

But that's not all!
If we pick the first option, SH does point out that there might be some valuables about…
So...was I not allow to have that option because of that 🙁?
That was my first thought after she said that. So, I can't help but wonder.
That might not be why but I would like to say I would not be a fan of missing options because they want to force companions to be "characterized" before us.

One related point :
At the beginning of the Beta, it was advertised that we would have FULL flexibility during dialogues, including attacking NPCs when we first meet them. I even remember some cinematics.
And I really liked that the option to attack someone before or during dialogues, was not abusing the system but an inherent part of the game that could be roleplayed.

At the moment, all the main characters are now protected from such action and i dont think it adds anything to the game because the story has already proven that it does not suffer any premature death from main characters.
Would love to see the option to kill NPCs when first meeting them back at the release

Saying "We should have left this place untouched" is especially funny because you'll probably go on looting everything you see.

Another thing that bothers me about this scene, I really wanted to bring it up later on when she tells you to avoid looting chest protected by Selune.
You can't bring up how she's all gung ho about looting some temple crypt in one instance, but is suddenly leery of this particular chest.

She also calls Selune 'moon witch' which is strange to go without comment.

*Said Tav while trying to put even their bones and skulls to his backpack.*

Hilarious. My thoughts exactly!

But thats what im talking about ...
I dont really need to have thousand outcomes, let Larian create only two or three if thats the way they want to put it ... BUT allow us to have more dialogue options.

There is no problem if two, three, or even ten as the matter of fact ... will lead to same outcome ... the point is for us to have as much options to express OUR character as possible!

Give there 3-5 options to say something ... wich will lead to sneak biting the girl.
Give there 3-5 options to say something ... wich will lead to Arabella being free.
And voila!
Still just 2 outcomes ... but 10 dialogue choices! Chance that we will find something that will fit us is sudently 5 times as big!
And the best part? Its cheap!
Since it require no reaction, no voiceacting, no cinematic ... bcs conversation go on the same way ... it costs almost nothing, jut adding few more text lines.

---

It pisses me off about those Tiefling kids (yes i know im complaining a lot about them) ...
That you can either cower for their illegal behaviour ...
Or let them being punished inaproprietly harsh ...

What is my Paladin supposed to do?
Let Arabella die is unacceptable, since im Lawfull Good and she is ... kinda "inocent" child ...
But let Arabella just go is also unacceptable, since she IS a thief no matter how old, and if she will not get her lesson, she might end up it really bad ...

There is litteraly no option fitting my character and that is a problem for me ... especialy since i play the most archetypical Paladin you can imagine. :-/

When Withers asks about the value of a life I wish I had a reply option that said: "I don't know."

For some reason all of the reply choices force me to pretend like I know the value of a life. Why can't I admit that I don't know?

True haha


+1! That is such a good remark!

Edit: I kinda wish this post was in "suggestions". I don't know the visibility of threads posted in "general" in terms of feedbacks.

I heared that our Comunity Managers are reading whole forum.
Should be fine i hope ...

Also i allready have topic for missing dialogue choices:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=741085#Post741085

This was supposed to be more general debate about how people feel about options as a whole.

Ooooh ok ok. I missed that one. I posted a link to this thread there just to be sure.

My thoughts on this are two-fold: One, I think this is a natural progression of the "everything must be fully voice-acted forever" trend that started with Bioware's ME. Since VA is expensive from a time/effort/resources (in-game/out-of-game) standpoint you're going to end up limiting the amount of options. That then often leads to your first thought as a developer being "how can we cut this down to fit while still giving distinct options" instead of "how can I add depth, richness, texture to this experience (BEFORE the editing/content elimination process starts)." It comes with the territory of needing to provide VO for every reaction/response. Less "bloat" but often can make the story (character's and overarching) railroad-y and, in the worst case, tonally all over the map.

Larian's choice unfortunately kind of locked in this state-of-affairs unless they were to get extremely creative or have a team the size of CD Projekt. It's one of those decisions you make at the beginning of development that simply cannot be undone once you get far enough into the process.

Two, I think this is kind of par for the course on the tone of the game itself. A lot of things are simply overdone (e.g. That Intro and most of the companion stories) because the general design philosophy seems to hew closer to the "big set pieces and explosions" similar to what you might get with an action genre pastiche. Things are more exciting when the stakes are all or nothing, black and white, whereas nuance would be too banal* or lacking in hooks. Honestly, it's a typical failing within fantasy writing (esp. in video games) because "illustrating" your world with charcoal has a higher learning curve than just doing the line art. If that metaphor makes any sort of sense.


*Not my opinion, but my general feeling from having played BG3 at the start of EA and then sparingly since then.

That's just me dusting off the old "literary analysis" hat, though, and I might be overlooking or misreading something that someone else can see.

Quoting to second. I know we don't agree often, Jand, but I'm with you on this one, 100%

==
In general, I agree that the dialogue choices as written are all written as extreme-end reactions, and are often far too lacking in nuance or moderation, and that's a real flaw in the design of the social elements of the game. Talking to others, and how we say things, is one of the main ways that we have of consistently, ambiently, characterising ourselves and defining our player character; we can't do that when Larian writes the lines to match specific, hard-locked, over-the-top and over-blown personalities (one of which is the one that they've internally decided represents our character, based on the class we picked) that mostly one favour extremes.

In previous D&D games of this sort, this is usually handled at least part way by there being more than a few ways to functionally push for the same outcome, with various nuanced differences, even though the result may be the same overall; it's far more common in BG3 right now that, if you want to achieve a particular outcome, of push for a particular course, you've got to do it the, usually extremist-phrased, way Larian have decided is 'the way' that result is achieved... and I know I for one have found it off-putting on many occasions, just in act one, and a hindrance to really feeling like I'm playing the character I imagine.

I would very much appreciate more nuance in our dialogue options.