|
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
|
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Aug 2021
|
In patches they expanded Nettie’s and Halsin’s dialogue to make it more clear Tav wasn’t going to change right away. In patch 8, Halsin told my party to slow down and enjoy life after we freed him. I don't know if it was because it only took two or three days or if it's because Tav hadn't bothered consulting Nettie or talking to Kahga. It felt like the developpers were talking to me directly, because Halsin doesn't have an in-game reason to say that... For myself in video games I am used to urgent main quests that aren’t urgent to do first, so I never thought Tav would turn into a mindflayer if not cured within a couple hours. Disco Elysium handled that quite well. Exasperated NPCs will ask you to please, for once, stay focused on the main mission. This lets the player know the main mission is important, but gives them an in-world reason to put it off : you're not exactly an exemplary cop.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
In patches they expanded Nettie’s and Halsin’s dialogue to make it more clear Tav wasn’t going to change right away. In patch 8, Halsin told my party to slow down and enjoy life after we freed him. I don't know if it was because it only took two or three days or if it's because Tav hadn't bothered consulting Nettie or talking to Kahga. It felt like the developpers were talking to me directly, because Halsin doesn't have an in-game reason to say that... Halsin has your back!🐻🐻🐻
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
In the spirit of friendly argument, there's no in-game empirical evidence that delayed ceremorphosis "can mean only one thing". I believe there are ... 4 of them actualy ... and their names are: Dror Ragzlin, priestess Gut, Minthara and Nere. I just didnt want to repeat it again, since i allready said it so many times.  But in short ... I believe that IF your character presumes that that time is of the essence ... Then meeting other True Souls should proove one of two things: A) Your ceremorphosis is stopped. B) Your ceremorphosis was slowed => they were tadpoled sooner => they should turn before you. Either way, no you are, well not "fine" ... but also, not "in danger of life" kind of hurry. Anyway, dont get me wrong here! I never said that our characters should have mindset of "hah, it does nothing ... i shall deal with it in few centuries ... if i have time" ... Even tho, in order to express my full opinion, i also believe that such character attitude is perfectly fine and should be possible ... after all, his name is Astarion. What im saying is that in my perspective, our characters have more than enough reasons to chill out a bit ... instead of rushing so far that they they die of exhaustion at finish. :-/ But again, such behaviour is also prefectly fine and if you WANT to play character that will freak out and push yourself beyond the limit ... her name is Shadowheart. The only part i dislike in this topic is that general "no person would ..." yes, they would ... Erratic behaviour in the wild is rarely a good thing. I wouldnt use that word ... what is so Erratic about its behaviour? Maybe its language barier in work here, but isnt Erratic more about someting that do several things in random pattern, rather than about simply taking a few weeks long nap? Anyway ... It should eat your brain > it dont. If that isnt good thing, i cant really imagine what is. --- You should read an entire post Why people still get so confused about this even after two years i wonder ... Once more then: I DO read whole posts ... my quotes only shows what i react to. Comprende? Now ... since you started this way: because no actual person in real life, finding themselves in this situation would simply "Trust" that they were not going to be transformed body and soul by this thing that annihilates a person's entire existence, just because ours isn't behaving in the traditional way exactly. If YOU would read entire post ... You would find out that i reacted on this with quoting a Wiki ... (i will not quote it again) That clearly states that within "few hours", "we" no longer exists ... so just the fact that "we" are still there to even wory about ceremorphosis is not matter of "trust", its a factual "proof" that this "thing" is not working for some reason. Also, now when you mentioned it and i read this statement again (bcs i again read whole post, shocking huh?) ... i cant really agree with statement "isn't behaving in the traditional way exactly" ... i mean, feel free to corect me, but as far as i know, our tadpole in fact "isn't behaving at all" ... unless we provoke it. very early on only Helsin is established as a credible solution. Is he? Halsin's people, who desperately need him back, are telling you that you should risk your life for him, bcs finding and saving him is your best option. Can you really say that you dont smell any sidemotives? O_o Lae'zel, who desperately need get back to her people, is telling you that you should risk your life for her, bcs her people are your only hope ... but only if she will be present, without her you have no chance to get their help, but with her, its asured. Can you really say that it isnt sound familiar? Sazza, who desperately need you to save her ... You get the idea, no? There is a patern! I dont really remember a single character that would offer you help with your Brainbug problem without gaining somethign out of it. which is counter intuitive if one has a potential ticking bomb in their noggins Can be ... yes. But in general, no it isnt.  Depends on lots of things like how big is that bomb, if its even armed, how long it would be ticking, if you are even smart enough to realize danger you are in. Dont throw away other scenarios as "unrealistic" just bcs *you* (and here i mean YOU not your character) would never even concider it ... if this would be universaly true, we wouldnt have Darwin Awards.  Even if this side content comes together narratively in later chapters, at this point in their story engaging it comes from meta knowledge (I know it is a game, and I know there is no timer, so there is no need to hurry). I allready presented few in game reasons ... It certainly can, and in most cases probably will come from meta knowledge ... i agree ... but there are options, if you keep your mind, eyes and ears opened. Here is an idea - what if we didn’t know we had tadpole implanted in our head (like so many other True Souls)? Interesting idea ... But wouldnt that require complete rework (or erase) of whole tutorial part and several starting conversations? O_o Even if you would erase it whole and you would wake up on the beach, blessingly unaware of your condition ... why would anyone stick with you? ... why would you be looking for a healer? ... why would you risk your life in Goblin camp? etc. etc.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
Now ... since you started this way: because no actual person in real life, finding themselves in this situation would simply "Trust" that they were not going to be transformed body and soul by this thing that annihilates a person's entire existence, just because ours isn't behaving in the traditional way exactly. If YOU would read entire post ... You would find out that i reacted on this with quoting a Wiki ... (i will not quote it again) That clearly states that within "few hours", "we" no longer exists ... so just the fact that "we" are still there to even wory about ceremorphosis is not matter of "trust", its a factual "proof" that this "thing" is not working for some reason. You are not providing argument to Niara's line of thinking though. No one claimed that it is not clear that something is off. The fact that tadpoles didn't go off as expected doesn't mean it is safe. If you step on a landmine and it doesn't go off, it doesn't mean it is safe to carry around with you. Therefore: because no actual person in real life, finding themselves in this situation would simply "Trust" that they were not going to be transformed body and soul by this thing that annihilates a person's entire existence, just because ours isn't behaving in the traditional way exactly. very early on only Helsin is established as a credible solution. Is he? I think so. He is a powerul druid, a leader of the local circle, and studied/studies tadpoled individuals before vanishing. Sounds like a good lead? Lae'zel, who desperately need get back to her people, is telling you that you should risk your life for her, bcs her people are your only hope ... Gith also seem like a possibility especially if one plays as Gith. As Mindflayers swarn enemies they could be equipped to combat mindflayers influence as she claims. That said, her being an aggressive alien, I wouldn't be slow to trust her people if roleplaying as any other race. Then of course you meet her "friends" and pursuing this avenue becomes clearly a bad idea. Friendly neighbourhood, tadpole studying elf druid seems like a safer bet (again, perhaps unless you play as Gith yourself). Gobbo pristess. She is a gobbo to start with, and works for people who want us dead. There is Auntie and comedic relief guy, but they are more accidental finds that intentional paths to pursue. which is counter intuitive if one has a potential ticking bomb in their noggins Depends on lots of things like how big is that bomb, if its even armed, how long it would be ticking, if you are even smart enough to realize danger you are in. Dont throw away other scenarios as "unrealistic" just bcs *you* (and here i mean YOU not your character) would never even concider it ... if this would be universaly true, we wouldnt have Darwin Awards. Har, har, har. Don't switch arguments, Mr. Strawman. Just second ago you claimed that it is perfectly fine to assume that tadpole doesn't present an immediate danger. In addition, it is impossible to do low inteligence runs in BG3, so it is safe to assume that your character has at least a below average inteligence, like myself. Here is an idea - what if we didn’t know we had tadpole implanted in our head (like so many other True Souls)? Interesting idea ... But wouldnt that require complete rework (or erase) of whole tutorial part and several starting conversations? O_o Even if you would erase it whole and you would wake up on the beach, blessingly unaware of your condition ... why would anyone stick with you? ... why would you be looking for a healer? ... why would you risk your life in Goblin camp? etc. etc. I thought of it more as a theoretical excercise (akin to rewriting xxxxx film videos) then an actual suggestion, that said if Larian saw it and thought it would fix all their problem I don't think it would be as difficult to implement as you suggest. The biggest obstacle is expensive CGI cinematics which would need to be cut or redone, to not include tadpole but other then some rewrites and rerecording would be enough. Perhaps it is still a lot. But maybe then Larian would write something more relatable then "tadpole this and tadpole that". I think we can wake up as prisoners on Illithyd ship. We are also experiencing strange sideeffects, such as melding our minds with brain-dog and other prisoners and future companions. That something was done to us, is I think enough of a reason to stick together and find out what happened. The fact that we have a tadpole doesn't really change much, I don't think. Finding a healer or someone with magical knowledge would be a priority still. Laez could still want to search for the Creche - something was done to her by Illythids after all. Then the encounter with dying true soul could be the indicator that we might have a tadpole as well, which could even be dismissed by some companions as we have been feeling better then ever afterall. And by time the diagnosis was made we would be pretty deep into act1, making moonlight tower a more direct objective. But as I said a thought excerciese more then anything. Difficult to say if and what it would do to the story without knowing more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
|
Ragzlin, Gut, Minthara etc: These are not reliable evidence sources for us being 'safe' enough to take our time; our tadpoles are clearly not the same a theirs, we know we have them, they don't - they all believe that theirs is a literal god talking to them. Their tadpoles leave their brains when they die, ours do not - any reason you give for this is You Making An Assumption; it might be the case, and it might not be - you don't know.. There's something different between theirs and ours - would you wager the entirety of your life and your immortal continuance of being thereafter (which in this universe you know that you have, incidentally, unlike ours) on simply "Assuming" that ours isn't going to destroy us or do something else irreversible to us, just because it seems like theirs haven't? Meeting the true souls does *Nothing* to allay our own concerns, because they are not the same as us. We also don't know where they got their tadpoles, or how, or why - they certainly weren't on the ship with us, after all. It tells us literally nothing about ourselves, and our situation, only theirs. There is nothing here to tell us, with ANY kind of reliable certainty, that we are not in life-threatening danger. It should eat your brain > it dont. If that isnt good thing, i cant really imagine what is. Yes you can, don't lie for the sake of your stance, it only undermines it. I'm sure you're not that lacking in imagination. As wormerine suggested, and it's more or less a very well fitting analogy: You stepped on a land mine. It should explode, it didn't. This is NOT a good situation, and not good news. It is most definitely not something that you should relax about and feel content to ignore and assume you're in no immediate danger - and carry around in your backpack to show to friends - just because it didn't explode already. It should have exploded already, yes - and the parallell here is that it SHOULD have turned us while we were passed out on the beach, and 'we' should not have woken up at all (recall that it we were captured inthe afternoon, spent time onthe ship, had the ship crash duringhte night, but woke up othe beach in the morning - long enough that it should have destroyed our personality already.) That we are still here is NOT 'factual proof' that it is not working - it proves only that it's not behaving as our lore books say it should. It is active and doing things though, and we don't know what, or why - the mental connection episodes, are one example, even without actively using the tadpole powers; even without them, too, it's clearly there, giving us that sensation that we cold do something, and we repeatedly are told about how terrible our characters are looking, and that we can occasionally feel it moving in our skull. Where I disagree with Wormerine is on Halsin: Halsin may be a credible source to tell us that ours is not behaving in the traditional way, but he is not a sufficient information source, as it stands currently, to reassure and take the time pressure off us, in relation to our specific situation - only someone with direct personal knowledge of exactly what has been done to us, and our/or tadpoles - our specific situation - can provide that. Halsin has studied these altered tadpoles, but again, ours are not the same as the other absolutist ones he's encountered. Even then, his only information is that "it's not transforming you when it should - it may not, but it may, and I can't tell you when or why it might, just that it might... but it seems like it probably won't" That alone is not sufficient information to remove it from doing everything we can about it as our no-distractions top priority. If his information was that "You're aware of yours, and the others aren't, but the basic effects seem to be identical otherwise, and I can say that these ones don't transform their hosts on their own - they need some kind of trigger, though I don't yet know what." That would help the situation, though as suggested, removing our knowledge of the tadpole, in universe, would be another possibility. If you need to presume that the character is ignorant, stupid or reckless (that all of them are, in fact - party leader problem) in order for your game to make in-universe sense, then your game design has failed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
Where I disagree with Wormerine is on Halsin: Halsin may be a credible source to tell us that ours is not behaving in the traditional way, but he is not a sufficient information source, as it stands currently, to reassure and take the time pressure off us Just to be pendantic, when I said From my perspective the problem is enhanced by most of he content in act1 being irrelevant to the player character - very early on only Helsin is established as a credible solution. I meant that I see finding Helsin as the only narratively reasonable objective to pursue, with other content being irrelevant to our PC or healing sources of questionable competency/goodwill. After he doesn't solve the problem, then it's straight off to moonlight tower. Even once we learn that our tadpole is magically suspended, it doesn't mean that force that suspends it is benevolent or will last for forseeable future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
After some thoughts i decided to add spoiler tags, since it get quite long. Wormerine part: The fact that tadpoles didn't go off as expected doesn't mean it is safe. I never said its "safe" ... you take that two steppes futher. I only claim that we have proof that our transformation is not imminent danger. And that is important difference. If you step on a landmine and it doesn't go off, it doesn't mean it is safe to carry around with you. Therefore: because no actual person in real life... Funny you mentioned this example ... let me tell you a short story: Bcs as it happens i actualy personaly know a person in real life, who have found a bomb (that kind Germans were droping during WWII.), when he was walking through the forest ... and what did he do you ask? Well i bet you allready know bcs of context. He indeed take it home, cleaned it and display it abowe his fireplace. Feel free to disbelieve me, but its true. Its also true that his wife (luckily for them) called Police to come and check it, and he allowed that only after they promised that they will return its empyed shell to him, so he can display is back ... but it was still armed and technicaly could explode at any moment ... he simply thought that if it was inacive for so long, it would most likely be somehow broken and therefore safe. So ... nope, i dont buy "no person would" ... yes, they would. I think so. He is a powerul druid, a leader of the local circle, and studied/studies tadpoled individuals before vanishing. Sounds like a good lead? You mean his followers claims that he is a powefull druid ... right? > So powerfull so he was captured by bunch of goblins. O_o What it even means that he "studied" the tadpole, or tadpoled individual? > Singular, there is one body ... wich btw is also dead ... by Halsin hand as we find out ... from his follower who also tryes (or plans to try) to murder us aswell, "just to be sure". It sounds like desperate lead to be honest. Aswell as any other (unless as you mentioned you are Githyanki). That said, her being an aggressive alien, I wouldn't be slow to trust her people if roleplaying as any other race. Then of course you meet her "friends" and pursuing this avenue becomes clearly a bad idea. Friendly neighbourhood, tadpole studying elf druid seems like a safer bet (again, perhaps unless you play as Gith yourself). This is actualy kinda funny ... An Elf try to slit your throat > no problem, travel with us dude. (I know you didnt say that, its more like where the game is pushing us in this case.) A Druid try to poison you, and is willing to only let you go if you promise to poison yourself, if things goes badly > no problem, lets help them, she is friendly after all and gave us solid lead. An Alien who is snarky, arogant, brutally efficient and feel no remorse for others, but also dont bother to lie or cheat > better be on our guard! No, im sorry i just cant understand how is it possble that everyone are so much willing to ignore all red flags in Druid Grove. O_o Well actualy i do ... its metaknowledge ... we know that Githyanki are Evil, so we aproach them as Evil ... we know Druids are Neutral, so we are fine around them ... What about it their previous leader left the Grove in hands of female Elvish Hitler ... what about that we were multiple times theatened with death ... what about it their leader had no problem killing a child and felt no remorse over it ... what about that most of the grove actualy supports Kagha ... and what about it what when we wipe out every-single-one of druids, Halsin dont give a shit as long as we also kill Goblin leaders? I mean COME ON! Open your eyes people! Is this "friendly neighborhood"? Hells, what warzone are you from? Gobbo pristess. She is a gobbo to start with, and works for people who want us dead. Yeah i was not talking about her credibility ... Only about how she is presented as safe bet from mouth of someone who needed something from you ... that was the simmilarity you should compare. There is Auntie and comedic relief guy, but they are more accidental finds that intentional paths to pursue. Again, you took it from wrong end. Ethel want to make a deal with you ... and for that, she was willing to offer you help you need ... funny enough, if you had regular tadpole, she would be the only one actualy able to help you as it seems. Wollo ... i presume he just wanted another exiting story. But the point is, that they all keep following their own goals ... you, and helping you, is just mean for their own end. which is counter intuitive if one has a potential ticking bomb in their noggins Depends on lots of things like how big is that bomb, if its even armed, how long it would be ticking, if you are even smart enough to realize danger you are in. Dont throw away other scenarios as "unrealistic" just bcs *you* (and here i mean YOU not your character) would never even concider it ... if this would be universaly true, we wouldnt have Darwin Awards. Har, har, har. Don't switch arguments, Mr. Strawman. Just second ago you claimed that it is perfectly fine to assume that tadpole doesn't present an immediate danger. I dont ... All this time all i say is that there is no universal rule for "what should we do" ... Just as its perfectly valid to freak out and desperaty try every single option in the game (Shadowheart as i mentioned, but also Lae'zel, maybe Gale) just bcs you have parasite in your head and you want it gone no matter how imminent danger your transformation is or isnt ... Its pefectly valid to dont really give a shit and focus on other stuff (Wyll, Astarion, possibly Karlach as it seems) bcs you are not in imminent danger of transformation ... Thats all i claim this whole time ... there is no universal answer, no argument about "nobody would" is valid here. There are 7Billions people in this world, and if you really think you can predict what each and every one would do in specific situation you are either fool, or ignorant. Im sory to say it this way, but it at least honest. In addition, it is impossible to do low inteligence runs in BG3, so it is safe to assume that your character has at least a below average inteligence, like myself. Intelligence is only one of many aspects of personality ... Smart people make dumm decisions all the time, aswell as stupid person can easily find out something brilliant. Also, i keep claiming that Intelligence as ability score in roleplaying games was poorly named ... Bcs it dont represents Intelligence as we understands it. But same goes with Wisdom and Charisma. I mean you can have Intelligence 20 (even over 20 in Sheldon's case) and still act like idiot, have you ever seen Big Bang Theory? But as I said a thought excerciese more then anything. Then i stand behind my original coment, its certainly interesting idea ... Dont have enough data to mark it as good or bad, but certainly interesting. --- Niara part: Ragzlin, Gut, Minthara etc: These are not reliable evidence sources for us being 'safe' enough to take our time; You have to take whole argument ... not just snap out that part that suits you. Let me repeat it for you whole: IF we presume we have REGULAR tadpole ... meaning until we get information that our tadpole was alterned, where we also learn that we will not turn after certain amount of time passes. OR IF we preusume that we will turn IN TIME ... meaning as long as we are "in hurry" bcs of imminent danger of transformation. THEN Ragzlin, Gut, Minthara, Nere etc. ARE reliable evidence source for us that we have time. See the difference? If you light two candles, first one will burn out sooner ... thats just how it works. If you are second candle, and you can watch first one ... you can use that observation to guess how much time you have ... as long as it burns, you are fine ... when it burns out, you are next! our tadpoles are clearly not the same a theirs, we know we have them, they don't There are differences yes ... But im not exactly sure if this bridge you made is solid enough to hold the idea. O_o I mean, there is many mind-alterning magic (or substances) in this world to be used ... Why presume they have different kind of tadpole? Especialy since our characters from the start dont even know there are different kind of tadpoles in the first place ... as far as i know, everyone presumes that our tadpoles are regular ones, and we only find out from Halsin, Omeluum or Ethel that they were alterned ... and that once again, is the exact situation we are also told that we have time. So ... back to the topic, i still see no reason to step out of the game, in order to take our time and explore. Their tadpoles leave their brains when they die, ours do not Ours do aswell ofcourse ... If you kill Astarion permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Lae'zel permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Shadowheart permanently, it leaves ... there are cutscenes for each and every one of them. The only case it dont leave is when we fall in combat, and will be ressurected afterwards. Wich (besides it being obvious game mechanic that have nothing to do with story, or lore) can be easily explained by it knowing our intention to ressurect our fallen comrade. Dont we all? There's something different between theirs and ours - would you wager the entirety of your life and your immortal continuance of being thereafter (which in this universe you know that you have, incidentally, unlike ours) on simply "Assuming" that ours isn't going to destroy us or do something else irreversible to us, just because it seems like theirs haven't? Me? Dunno ... chances are that i would not, but cant really imagine the situation properly. But my character? Yes, certainly. I can create idiot, who dont realize full extend of danger he faces. (Wyll) I can create selfish bastard, who dont give a shit what it will take to cheat this thing. (Astarion) I can create smug character, who will be so full of himself, so he would believe that he will find a way to outsmart this thing. (Gale) See? Its not impossible. There is nothing here to tell us, with ANY kind of reliable certainty, that we are not in life-threatening danger. We have saying in Czech: The drowning person grasp even straw. If your argument is really build on "oh this isnt certain enough for me to relly on" ... Then im affraid you dont concider full extend of life-threatening danger. :-/ Also keep in mind that i dont claim to say universal truth ... all i keep saying and keep repeating is that there is no such thing. That characters who would chill out and explore are exactly just as valid and possible ... as characters who will freak out ans rush towards main quest ignoring rest of the world entirely. Yes you can, don't lie for the sake of your stance, it only undermines it. No i dont, thats why i said it ... Also i dont really appreciate you puting words in my mouth ... if you really wish to talk about it with yourself, please feel free to, there is obviously no need (or reason) for my imput if you are ignoring what i say and replace it with your own words ... but keep in mind that your conclusions are your own then. You stepped on a land mine. It should explode, it didn't. This is NOT a good situation, and not good news. It is most definitely not something that you should relax about and feel content to ignore and assume you're in no immediate danger - and carry around in your backpack to show to friends - just because it didn't explode already. Exactly as Wormerine abowe ... you also took it two steppes futher than it was. :-/ For one: Yes it is good news ... you should be dead, you are not ... how can that not be good news? Unless you were trying to commit suicide ofcourse, then you failed wich is rarely seen as good news. For two: What i "should" or "should not" assume/do ... is entierly different topic! Look: You say: "Its not good idea to carry around an explosive and presume its safe bcs it just didnt explode allready." I say: "Its possible that some person will carry around an explosive and presume its safe bcs it just didnt explode allready." See the difference? I believe it should be crystal clear by now. and the parallell here is that it SHOULD have turned us while we were passed out on the beach, and 'we' should not have woken up at all (recall that it we were captured inthe afternoon, spent time onthe ship, had the ship crash duringhte night, but woke up othe beach in the morning - long enough that it should have destroyed our personality already.) Exactly my point. That we are still here is NOT 'factual proof' that it is not working - it proves only that it's not behaving as our lore books say it should. I believe the problem here lays in deffinition of "not working" ... As i read your post, it seems to me that you take it as perfectly safe, no danger at all, nothing (related to this) can go wrong ever again. Am i reading it wrong? But what i was trying to say was its "not working" the way it should. And that means that (as i stated abowe) we either have more time than people in our situation usualy have (that was when i said that our ceremorphosis is slowed) ... or time is not the aspect that bothers us at all (that was when i said that our ceremorphosis is stoped). But both only in matter of how much time is pressing our characters! Yes, you are corect in that, it dont mean that we can never ever ever turn ... but i never claimed that. Our characters even withnessed transformation via pulling the lever ... so unless we purposefully avoided that room, or that lever, we *KNOW* that we can still be in danger just bcs that little shit is still in our heads ... All im saying is that (presuming our character have the knowledge) we should by now, when we wake up on the beach, have option to realize that *time* matters to us only in a way "the sooner i get the solution, the sooner i will be save" rather than "unless i find the solution soon enough im fucked". And i see there important difference. Thats why i mentioned Pheidippides, i meaned it, litteraly ... If we would be in "regular tadpole" situation, it would make perfect sense to me that our characters would be willing to die of exhaustion in order to pursue any possible solution at hand as soon as possible. But we are not ... and we should have option to know this ... and therefore we should have option to slow down, so we dont die of exhaustion at the end of our run. Know what i mean? It is active and doing things though, and we don't know what, or why - the mental connection episodes, are one example, even without actively using the tadpole powers; even without them, too, it's clearly there, giving us that sensation that we cold do something, and we repeatedly are told about how terrible our characters are looking, and that we can occasionally feel it moving in our skull.
But this only works as reminder for us that tadpole is still there ... it dont affect amount of time we have.
Therefore im sorry, but i dont find it much relevant in topic about how much we need to rush. :-/
[quote=Niara]Halsin has studied these altered tadpoles, but again, ours are not the same as the other absolutist ones he's encountered. I didnt want to mention it before, but this is pure metaknowledge statement so i feel like i can. Bcs as far as i know, they are the same. I can say that these ones don't transform their hosts on their own - they need some kind of trigger, though You get this information exactly from Omeluum ... it seems like a shame to give it to Halsin aswell. He could theorize something like this prehaps, but i wouldnt like if he would *know* so much from studying the larva itself ... sounds too deep to me, concidering that all he likely did was to observe it and prehaps "scan" it through some magical means. Also i dunno, but i kinda like that you need to get pieces together from several sources. If you need to presume that the character is ignorant, stupid or reckless (that all of them are, in fact - party leader problem) in order for your game to make in-universe sense, then your game design has failed. Aswell as if you need to presume that your character is flawless, allways perfectly logical, and demands solid prooves for every information s/he gets. :P As i said abowe, and this i will repeat gladly: There are 7Billions people in this world, and if you really think you can predict what each and every one would do in specific situation you are either fool, or ignorant. //Edit: I meant that I see finding Helsin as the only narratively reasonable objective to pursue And that is perfectly fine ... as long as you keep it as the only reasonable way for yourself. But there are other characters, with different perspectives and priorities ... Sadly, many people around here is unable to look beyond what *they* would do.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 05/11/22 10:36 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
|
|
|
|
|
|
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2009
|
The problem with the tadpole is that they cant make it a timed thing.
You rest 20 times in act1 and in act3 you have no time? Regame 40hours?
You rest 2000 times in act1 looking for your "hidden" timer and restart ?
The only possible way is maybe a hidden Questcounter and after Number X you are 1 level above someone Rush the game and you have malus or something to normalize the Player strength but this time its a tadpole "effect".
But in general a "timed" thing without near future effect is a bad developer choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
If you step on a landmine and it doesn't go off, it doesn't mean it is safe to carry around with you. Therefore: because no actual person in real life... Funny you mentioned this example ... let me tell you a short story: All I can say is that I find this person behaviour incredibly irresposible. That said, if a game expected me to mimic such behaviour in a roleplaying game I would still find it jarring. It's fine as an option, but for a main narrative driving force of the adventure I still see it as a poor choice. I think so. He is a powerul druid, a leader of the local circle, and studied/studies tadpoled individuals before vanishing. Sounds like a good lead? You mean his followers claims that he is a powefull druid ... right? > So powerfull so he was captured by bunch of goblins. O_o I must say, it is difficult for me to distinguish what is an intentional story telling and what are just inconsistencies. Personally I have been treating the representation of high power characters and low level weaklings as just poor intertwining of narrative and gameplay then anything intentional, same as I don't think there is necessarily a difference between our tadpole and True souls tadpole, simply because ours doesn't leave the body when we die - I think it is just "plot armor".
For the record, I think we should be under control of the Absolute, but the weapon prevents it from happening. It almost happens in game, if not for the weapon. I also think that that's how our spare party members will be taken away from us - during finalle of act1 the weapon will prevent our current party to come under influence of absolute agian, but every spare companion won't be as lucky
Still he seems to command respect and power over the grove, which either speaks to his competence of family connection (if such thing exists in whimsical world of D&D). Either way it is still as good as it gets in the current area. No, im sorry i just cant understand how is it possble that everyone are so much willing to ignore all red flags in Druid Grove. O_o
Well actualy i do ... its metaknowledge ... we know that Githyanki are Evil, so we aproach them as Evil ... we know Druids are Neutral, so we are fine around them ... Here is the rub - it's not metaknowledge. It's the nature of the world. Good, Neutral, Evil aren't philosophical abstacts in D&D. Goblins, Githyanki they ARE evil, Druids ARE neutral - and that is knowledge a person living in this world will hold. It's not even a question "do you think Gobbos can be trusted", it is "is it smart to look for help among creatures who are EVIL, controled by a misterious being who instructed it's underlings to find and kill you". If Larian wants evil path to have some credibility it needs to be very tempting. That's also a reason why Astarion dies in most of my playthroughs - he is an evil monster, and I don't have a good reason not to kill him. Keeping him around is nothing more then a liability. Though I am a hypocryte right now. I always struggled to play straight evil characters in BG1&2 and early Bioware RPGs, and BG3 is no different. The issue is, I think, that unlike many other RPGs I can't really come up with my own motivation. Tadpole is too overwhelming of a driving force - nothing else matters unless you get rid of it. The game is also completely unconcerned about what my character might want to do. And as Niara pointed out in the world with afterlife, and resurection tapole is one of the most horrific threats that you could carry. That's honestly not something I even considered before. Getting killed by Helsin's apprentice it is really not a biggie - expensive setback (not in BG3 but in 5e ruleset, and especially not a biggie if we take BG3 cost of resurection literally), but it is just a setback.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
|
I meant that I see finding Helsin as the only narratively reasonable objective to pursue And that is perfectly fine ... as long as you keep it as the only reasonable way for yourself. But there are other characters, with different perspectives and priorities ... Sadly, many people around here is unable to look beyond what *they* would do. I think that part of the problem is that the story kind of breaks down if you try and take the tadpole as a serious, immintent threat. And the game does start by presenting the tadpole as an imminent threat. And if it's valid to look at the kernels of evidence suggesting that it isn't and latch onto that, then it's equally valid to misunderstand the evidence or just not trust it (I did both in my first playthrough). But if the player/character goes the latter route, what happens? It's not actually an interesting choice. You only lose out if you take the initial threat presented by the game seriously. From my perspective, all the evidence of something strange with the tadpole is just confusing and adding the mystery of what's going on with it, which only further makes me nervous of it and want it gone, it doesn't make me feel reassured. But if you try and act from that perspective, you just get less of everything. Less loot, less xp, less companion interaction, less story. So in order to enjoy what the game has to offer, I have to play in a way that I find narratively unsatisfying. Because I don't like playing characters who are dumb or smug or reckless, it feels unnatural and uncomfortable, like wearing clothes that are too small. And the game isn't giving me enough to really play a character that isn't like that. It's all just disparate hints that the tadpole is different in some way. And I will also keep harping on this; it's an unsatisfying way to resolve the tadpole threat that we're presented with at the start of the game, because it doesn't resolve it. We as players are just expected to ignore the really urgent tadpole threat that the game presents right at the beginning of the game. The game pretty much starts with us seeing the tadpole get implanted in us from first person perspective. It's a visceral, horrific scene, then as soon as we meet our first companion she's telling us about what it will do to us, and she tells us again in even more gruesome detail later. The game very effectively establishes the tadpole and threat of transformation as the main threat, and finding a healer as the main goal of the game, at least at this point. At the same time it also gives us hints to undermine that urgency and rewards us for doing stuff that doesn't present an immediate solution to the problem. Like the whole Aunt Nettie plotline. That starts with two random dudes accosting an old lady. Even playing a good character who thinks they can afford to spend a few minutes stopping that, what reason do I have to pursue that plotline further? At best she seems like maybe a wizard or something who's living in a cottage. In my first playthrough my character just moved on right past it because hey, the situation was resolved, nothing more for me to look into, and I've got pressing things and actual leads to follow up on. And what's worse is that pursuing that quest actually gives you important information about the tadpole (that's gated behind a major debuff. Yes I am still very bitter about that). If Larian wants us to take it slow, then they shouldn't have started the game so urgently. Instead they give us a big, scary ticking clock that they then have to walk back. And they're doing at best a mediocre job of that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
|
To Ragnarok, you've said before you find it easier to manage when I break things into parts with direct reference, like you do - so I'll do this, for your benefit. (maybe you could return the favour one day? ^.^) I do want to be clear, I'm not trying to be abrasive or to attack you personally, and this is written in the spirit of constructive debate; none of what I say here is directed at you, the person, or intended to imply as much - it's about the theoretical characters we're discussing, not the people behind them. Spoilered for being, in actually, quite off topic by this point. Warning: I use the phrase "an absolute f****** idiot" in the course of this as illustration of the core issue; it is not an insult directed at anyone. IF we presume we have REGULAR tadpole [...]
OR
IF we preusume that we will turn IN TIME [...]
THEN Ragzlin, Gut, Minthara, Nere etc.
ARE reliable evidence source for us that we have time.
See the difference? None of which is in any way relevant or at all related to what I wrote and to which that section of your answer claimed to respond. I'll say it again: We KNOW immediately that something is off and wrong about our tadpole. We do not know what, or why or how. Meeting the True Souls does NOTHING to allay our own concern of immediate danger because theirs are not the same as ours, and we cannot be sure that they are; they didn't come from the same source, they were not on the ship with us, and none of them know they have tadpoles and believe they are talking to a god. This does not give us tangible information that we can apply to ourselves. It simply does not. If you are an absolute f****** idiot, you can assume that what is true for them is also true for us, and wager the entirety of your life and continued existence upon this firmly enough that you Relax and Stop Rushing, and Allow yourself To Be Diverted By Other Things. If you are an absolute f****** idiot. If you light two candles, first one will burn out sooner ... thats just how it works. If you are an absolute f****** idiot, you can certainly make that bald-faced assumption about this thing which you know next to nothing at all about, and which is not even playing by the same rules that scholars and those experienced with them say they should be. If you are an absolute f****** idiot. You can assume they are all the same. You can assume they all have the same gestation/triggering time, and you can assume that, despite the minor differences, what is true of the true souls will definitely and reliably be true for you as well. IF, and only IF you are an absolute f****** idiot. There are differences yes ... But im not exactly sure if this bridge you made is solid enough to hold the idea. O_o It doesn't need to be - it needs only to be valid enough that the concern that this thing which we know next to nothing about, and which is not even acting in the same way that scholars say it should be, may not be predictable, and may not interact with everyone the same way, and may not be identical to theirs... and it very much is enough for that concern to be valid and legitimate. So, a long as you are not an absolute f****** idiot, you take that valid concern seriously, and you don't relax or allow yourself to be diverted from the main problem. On the other hand, you can ignore those concerns and possibilities, and just make the half-hearted assumption that it will be fine for now, because they seem fine enough for now, and so it might be okay to put it on the back burner and explore the region, or do some side quests first.... if you are an absolute f****** idiot. Why presume they have different kind of tadpole? You don't assume they are different. It is prudent, however, to entertain the possibility that they are not identical, given the minor differences present. Why assume that they are the same, and thus relax your guard enough to slow down and explore and side-quest... when the outcome of this problem, and whether you can solve it or not, has not only your life, but your immortal continuance as well, as the stake in the balance? Answer: Only if you are an absolute f****** idiot. Not when my life and eternal continuance are the stake on the line, no. I remain open to all possibilities, and assume nothing as given in favour of my time or safety that I cannot reliably confirm... because I'm not an absolute f****** idiot. It's a possibility that I may have plenty of time. It's also a possibility that I may not. I literally do not know, and I would not assume that I'm safer than the worst case scenario predicts, with those kinds of stakes. Someone who would is, it must be said, an absolute f****** idiot. We have saying in Czech: The drowning person grasp even straw. Nice proverb... and might I remind you that said 'Drowning Person' would Absolutely F****** Not just let themselves sink slowly under the waves and relax, because they Assume that they've probably got more time still, or that the water won't kill them 'yet'. The desperate person would not get distracted by seaweed collecting side-quests, while they are trying to swim, or duck under the water to examine the interesting coral. They SWIM... which in this proverb correlates to pursuing a cure for their tadpole. The anecdote you were probably searching for would be one about denial - the individual who sees that there is a possibility that they have more time, and out of an unwillingness to face the direness of their situation, will jump to that and treat it as iron-clad fact, because if it IS fact, then they are safe for now... so it must be fact, surely! It's certainty the action of someone in denial, but more prominently, it's the action of an absolute f****** idiot. Then im affraid you dont concider full extend of life-threatening danger. :-/ Sounds like you are describing your own stance more than mine, here, Rag. You're the one claiming that these parallels and assumptions of similarity, and instances of 'well it didn't happen yet', Are enough to reasonable relax and explore, and pursue side-quests. If anyone is not really considering the extent of the life-and-continued-immortal-existence-threatening-danger, it's the character who sets them aside to side-quest and explore, before they have a legitimate confirmation of their personal situation... aka, the absolute f****** idiot. Also i dont really appreciate you puting words in my mouth ... I didn't put words in your mouth - I suggested that you were being intellectually dishonest, or at least disingenuous with the words that you used. You stepped on a land mine. It should explode, it didn't. This is NOT a good situation, and not good news. It is most definitely not something that you should relax about and feel content to ignore and assume you're in no immediate danger - and carry around in your backpack to show to friends - just because it didn't explode already. Exactly as Wormerine abowe ... you also took it two steppes futher than it was. :-/ No I didn't... you quite openly said that it was understandable or sensible to conclude that we weren't in immediate danger. That's exactly the step you took, no further. I'm just highlighting how ridiculous a statement it is. To be clear, you said: Either way, no you are, well not "fine" ... but also, not "in danger of life" kind of hurry. [...] What im saying is that in my perspective, our characters have more than enough reasons to chill out a bit This is you having the land mine, and seeing that it didn't explode, and are saying that we can chill out about having it embedded in our forehead (let's imagine it was quite a step...), because you assume that it won't explode any time soon, based only on the idea that it hasn't yet, and that there are other unexploded land mines about here that also haven't gone off. This is Exactly the step you are taking... I'm not making you out to be more extreme than you are making yourself. Yes it is good news ... you should be dead, you are not ... how can that not be good news? Because if the land mine had exploded when you stepped on it, only you would be dead; now there's no telling when or where it will explode and thus it could be potentially endangering many, many, MANY more lives. There's one way in which it is not good news, and I don't believe for a second that you were so unimaginative as to not be able to think of that, so, my statement stands: don't lie to support your point, it only undermines it. Do not claim that you 'cannot imagine' something in order to support your point, when you could or can... it's intellectually dishonest (it is, in fact, a form of relevance fallacy, known as the argument from incredulity, if you'd like to look it up). You say: "Its not good idea to carry around an explosive and presume its safe bcs it just didnt explode allready."
I say: "Its possible that some person will carry around an explosive and presume its safe bcs it just didnt explode allready." It is possible, if and only if that person is an absolute f****** idiot. I'm not denying that, and never have. The issue is that you must be an absolute f****** idiot to make this choice. == When you say: so just the fact that "we" are still there to even wory about ceremorphosis is not matter of "trust", its a factual "proof" that this "thing" is not working for some reason. Generally speaking, what that is taken to mean, in english, is that you are claiming that this is factual proof that the process ceremorphosis is not working - not that it's behaving differently or being strange, or is more stretched out, or altered, but that it is literally not working at all. If that wasn't your intention, and what you meant to say was that it "was not working in the normal way", then yes, we agree on that and are on the same page here... it's a clear fact, but it also tells us nothing of use or value about what IS happening, so it's a largely irrelevant one. It is active and doing things though [...] But this only works as reminder for us that tadpole is still there ... it dont affect amount of time we have. Therefore im sorry, but i dont find it much relevant in topic about how much we need to rush. :-/ This was in relation to your comment about the tadpole 'not working'. Consider it moot; I think we've cleared up that particular miscommunication, and are on the same page for it, more or less. == And that means that (as i stated abowe) we either have more time than people in our situation usualy have (that was when i said that our ceremorphosis is slowed) ... or time is not the aspect that bothers us at all (that was when i said that our ceremorphosis is stoped). But both only in matter of how much time is pressing our characters! And we do not know, at all, how much time we might have, or if time is a factor or not - we do not know, and any assumption that we have time to spare is an assumption that would only be made by an absolute f****** idiot, until such a time as we get information from a suitably reliable authority source that time itself is not an issue for us. As soon as we GET that, then the time crunch comes off and it makes sense to explore and do side quests, and so on, but BEFORE we get that, diverting to explore or do side quests are actions that would only be taken by absolute f****** idiots. when we wake up on the beach, have option to realize that *time* matters to us only in a way "the sooner i get the solution, the sooner i will be save" rather than "unless i find the solution soon enough im fucked".
And i see there important difference. There is an important difference: the two thoughts are not mutually exclusive, however the person who assumes the first but dismisses the second strongly enough to allow themselves to be diverted by exploration and side quests is an absolute f****** idiot. Halsin has studied these altered tadpoles, but again, ours are not the same as the other absolutist ones he's encountered. Bcs as far as i know, they are the same. Except for that part where Halsin himself mentions that we are different from the True Souls; that we have an awareness of the tadpole, and can feel it exercising its own power, while the True Souls do not and cannot, and know nothing of Illithids. Our situation Is. Not. The. Same. Similar, defiantly, and maybe it was meant to be the same, probably... but it very much is not, however that has come about. In character, in universe, after talking with Halsin, we know that we are different from them, somehow, but we do not know why or how, or in what other ways. Anyone who walks away from this and wagers their life and immortal continuance on the assumption that they will certainly have the same amount of time as those others is an absolute f****** idiot. If you need to presume that the [entire party are absolute f****** idiots] in order for your game to make in-universe sense, then your game design has failed. Aswell as if you need to presume that your character is flawless, allways perfectly logical, and demands solid prooves for every information s/he gets. :P I am not asking for that - no-one is. This is where you're missing the point, I think. No-one is saying that characters must necessarily be flawlessly logical, collected or deeply interrogative. Just that the game must not require them to be absolute f****** idiots in order to make sense. There are 7Billions people in this world, and if you really think you can predict what each and every one would do in specific situation you are either fool, or ignorant. I don't need to. The friend you know of who carried home that bomb is an absolute f****** idiot for doing so... and a majority of sane people will agree with that assessment. The majority of people in the world are NOT absolute f****** idiots. As you conveniently mention, the Darwin Awards are a thing because absolute f******* idiots of that magnitude are generally quite rare. If they were more common, we wouldn't have awards for them, because it would be nothing unusual. One Darwin Award in particular is compelling here - There was a man who burned to death on the roof of his house, while sitting in a deck chair, drinking a beer and eating a cheese platter; the fire was all around him, but it wasn't on his section of the roof yet, and the firemen were trying to get him down while they were trying to deal with the fire. He would not heed them, because he wanted to finish his wine and his cheese first, and didn't want to be interrupted; he would come down when he was done, the fire could wait (he shouted this to the firemen, I believe). The fire did not wait, part of the roof gave in, and he fell, and was burned to death in the guts of the house. This man won a Darwin Award because he was an absolute f****** idiot. There is a particularly strong parallel between this Darwin, and the character who decides they have time to side-quest and explore, before they have authoritative information that the time they take to do so is not a problem. Any character who wakes up with the knowledge that they have a situation which, if it eventuates, will not only kill them, but also obliterate their immortal soul and their hope of continuance after death (which, in the realms, people know they have, and it's not a matter of uncertain faith but is tangible knowledge), and who does not know the details of this situation, or how, or what, or when, or why it might trigger and occur, when by all current knowledge it should have done so already... and who decides, based on loose similarity to other situations, that they have time to divert, do side quests and explore, while putting the immediate search for a solution on the back burner... Is An Absolute F****** Idiot. In order to do the contents of Act 1 in a sensible or expected way, and not miss great gulfs of content, it requires us to do this, substantially, before it begins to provide anything close to a strong enough source of information about our condition to warrant it... in short, it requires not only us, but also all of our companions, who go along with us, to be Absolute F****** Idiots. If Your Game Requires The PC To Be An Absolute F****** Idiot in order to make sense, then your game design has FAILED. == If we get that information in a timely fashion, this hole problem disappears entirely. We need to be Rushed, right up until we get information that is certain and authoritative enough to take the time crunch off our shoulders. This means no side quests and no chances to explore until we have that information, and it makes more sense for us to 'chill', as you say, and do so. In turn, this means that information needs to come early enough that it doesn't interfere with our exploration of Act 1, OR we must not have a chance to explore Act 1, do side quests, or miss content, until we DO get that information. For the information to be authoritative enough, it needs to come from someone who can see and understand our Particular situation, not just general principles - either someone versed in the issue itself and able to examine us in relation to it, who can tell us more clearly what our stance is (even just as little as being confirmed that time alone won't destroy us... or it needs to come from someone who knows exactly what happened to us, but in a channel or method that we can reasonably trust, whether we like it or not. Halsin's anecdotal examination is not enough, as it stands; it's inconclusive about whether our situation is the same as theirs, and he makes it clear that he can't tell how much time we might have. Ormellum's examination DOES satisfy, since he discerns that it is contained and requires a trigger, and that time alone will not turn us in our present state... but Ormellum is deep, deep in the back end of the Act. There are a handful of different ways this could be fixed to solve the issue and make everyone (most people...) content; as long as they fix it somehow. == If you kill Astarion permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Lae'zel permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Shadowheart permanently, it leaves ... there are cutscenes for each and every one of them. Ah, well, that's new to me, and I've not seen that. It's good to know, thank you. I'll take your word for it and redact that line. == To bring it back to the main topic, if the introduction were set up differently, the juxtaposition of the narrative need for haste, and the design need to breadth of explorations and pacing could be resolved smoothly without making sweeping changes to the contents of Act 1 itself... but it would require Larian to do something different with their intro, rather than copy-paste-painting D:OS2's intro ^.^
Last edited by Niara; 05/11/22 01:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
If you kill Astarion permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Lae'zel permanently, it leaves ... if you kill Shadowheart permanently, it leaves ... there are cutscenes for each and every one of them. Ah, well, that's new to me, and I've not seen that. That’s interesting. I have never seen that happen either. May I inquire what does it take to kill a companion permanently? The closest I got was stabbing Astarion with a pole and his body would just lie in the camp till the end of time. I assumed it is impossible to permanently kill a companion. Is it tied to sequences when they are not accepted into the party?
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
If they made more clear, early on, the connection between the tadpole and Moonrise Towers, then the connections between Halsin, and the Goblins to our main quest might be better realized. Maybe if we learned that the Nautiloid was headed there before being attacked, we'd have a better reason to quest for someone who knows more about it.
Right now, piecing it together is an unintended outcome of getting involved with the local trouble. Which as we've talked about, is the logical paradox of wanting us to put the locals ahead of our impending doom.
Last edited by Sozz; 05/11/22 04:14 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
|
I have to wonder how the story will seem to the majority of players who only play through the story once. Most people here have played through every scene multiple times, have read a ton about what is going on, watched other videos, playthroughs, datamined everything, etc. But what of those who experience the story for the first time as their only time?
I've had a playthrough where I didn't activate really any of the story cutscenes and the whole time it felt like I was just randomly getting involved in some unrelated conflict, just because. No dreamer, no devil coming to camp, I didn't recruit SH so the box wasn't a thing, etc. If that had been my only time playing through that section I can't imagine how terrible the story would seem.
I really hope they get better at telling the story and making it a bit more obvious what the connections are, because right now, it feels like a coop themepark for most people, and a deep engaging rpg for very, VERY few. Hell, maybe that's what Larian is going for.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Let me remind everyone that in the full game, you ARE free to pursue whatever path would lead the fastest to getting rid of the pole. You can go after the creche, or anything else, but you seem to be hitting a roadblock everywhere. So whether or not you will feel the urgency or not, based on your roleplay of intelligence or perceived threat, you can't do anything more than what you're doing. Theoritically we don't know if you can pursue this until you find out from credible source that you are not in imminent danger, and then come back to do the sidequests.
The game lets you assume at first you are in imminent danger, but as time passes, it becomes even more hinted that the danger is not imminent.
I agree, and i think that in the final release we should be presented with actual credible source for this soon enough, so we can explain swashbuckling around better. In the end however, the same thing happened later in the game in BG2. You had your soul taken from you, and told you where going to die, but not when. You still could do whateeeeeever else you wanted from side quests, and leave claiming it back until the very end, with the possibility also of becoming the Slayer without able to control it and killing everyone. It's a narrative form of hinting you the though of impending doom that will happen if you don't deal with it, but not telling you to do it in a timed fashion. Like you learn of a gang setting an ambush, and the gang is there WHEN you decide to enter the alley. It happens in a lot of games, and when Owlcat did something different, no one liked it and they had to let you have like, 90 days, which was more than you would ever even need.
It's a lore-gameplay segregation that will inevitably happen.
Also, i am really interested in knowing how all these level 1 super characters know SO much about what ceremorphosis even is, barring Lae'zel. The knowledge about mind flayers and how they reproduce, is not the most mundane, and the only one that would actually know much about it, is someone who has read actual lore of it, or even seen it. A level 1 gith would know so much about it? Ok let's assume she would know something. Why didn't they do it while you were unconscious? You wouldn't even know what's happening. It always irked me that level 1 chars know everything there is to know, and they didn't even need to be educated by someone, except your main character of course. They have to be the idiot every time.
Still, supposedly, a tadpole should take you under its control within hours, and in 1 week you transform.
Last edited by Krom; 05/11/22 06:22 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
|
I think my issue here is that the gameplay and story segregation has the potential to totally unravel the game. Because of how camp scenes work, if you take the imediate threat seriously and act upon it, then just like Boblawblah described, you'll end up missing swaths of story because you're resting as little as possible, which will make the game demonstrably worse. The game starts by yelling "you're in urgent danger" and then starts to whisper "not really though" and if you don't properly process those whispers, then you're just gonna have an inferior time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Yeah we'll have to see how that works out in the released game, we might see something different all together.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Part of the reason for my Long Rest Poll was to get at that Boblawblah, because I knew from my first playthrough I had done everything in my power to take as few long rests as possible, I blew through who knows how many flags, and really messed with the pacing of the story. Based on that, not necessarily helpful, poll, a large portion of people on their first playthrough will do the same. I think Larian, has been adding stuff to signpost for players that the narrative thrust of the prologue doesn't need to dictate their playthrough of the first area, whether or not it's enough I can't say. For instance, Shadowheart's dialogue about whether or not resting is a good idea, in order to get that scene you already have to be comfortable enough to take a rest, and take one early enough on that the trigger isn't overridden by something else. I didn't know that scene existed until someone mentioned it here, who knows how long into the EA, and that was already after I stopped trying to put off resting.
As for whether or not the story will loop us back to the grove-goblin quest after following leads elsewhere, is taking for granted a lot about how the game maps will work. I'm not sure we'll ever return to the EA map after this act concludes, and if we do, I'm not sure any of the quests will still be there. It's possible after going to the creche we'll be put back on Halsin's trail, but I think it's more likely we'll just be put onto the Moonrise path. Also, ticking clocks don't need to actually follow through for them to set the pace of your adventure, we're talking about a dissonance between character and player motivation, good storytelling should make it so our characters aren't acting illogically just because the person playing them knows they're just in a silly video game. It's a separate conversation but I wish video games did play with time and sequences more, considering unlike most mediums, it can actually do interesting things with them.
And to be fair based on the first conversation with Lae'zel, most Tavs don't seem to know what ceremorphosis is, neither do Astarion and I think Wyll; Gale, and even SH, I can believe it of.
Last edited by Sozz; 05/11/22 07:12 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
All I can say is that I find this person behaviour incredibly irresposible. No arguments here ... But that was not a point, was it? The question was if it is "possible" ... and that it certainly is! I would still find it jarring. It's fine as an option, but for a main narrative driving force of the adventure I still see it as a poor choice. Dunno ... it seems like an option to me. O_o You can concider the tadpole as dangerous as it please you ... and rush as much as it please you ... Larian simply didnt set everything in stone and leave us enough room for interpretation. As far as im concerned, its a good thing. same as I don't think there is necessarily a difference between our tadpole and True souls tadpole, simply because ours doesn't leave the body when we die - I think it is just "plot armor". Agreed. (and that spoiler part also seemed quite likely ... but i hope it will go different route) Still he seems to command respect and power over the grove, which either speaks to his competence of family connection (if such thing exists in whimsical world of D&D). Either way it is still as good as it gets in the current area. There is old saying: In the land of blind, one eyed is the King. It's the nature of the world. Good, Neutral, Evil aren't philosophical abstacts in D&D. Im affraid, they are ... in context of sentient beings with free will ... But we allready discused this in another topic. O_o Yes, there are "good" or "evil" beings who have no choice in their behaviour, bcs its part of them ... and yes there are "good" or "evil" supernatural forces that influences mortal behaviour ... But beyond that? For people who are physicaly able to do both good and evil deeds, those therms are just as philosophical abstracts as they are for you and me, unless there is some supernatural force included. It other words: Githyanki are capable of being Good ... it would be rare sight, as rare as meeting friendly mind flayer ... but hey, we met friendly mind flayer. Goblins, Githyanki they ARE evil, Druids ARE neutral - and that is knowledge a person living in this world will hold. I would argue that Githyanki are actualy "unknown" to most people, since they are quite rare sight. Also i would certainly argue that Druids hates aberrations ... and are openly hostile to anything unnatural. As is that little thing inside our heads. So if we really wish to play this on safe bet ... are Druids still your first choice? Even after everything you seen in the Grove? O_o Well i mean, okey why not ... but i wouldnt pretend that i understand that. "is it smart to look for help among creatures who are EVIL, controled by a misterious being who instructed it's underlings to find and kill you". The problem with this questions is that you are looking at Evil path, through Good sights. Did we indeed "look for help" among Goblins? I dunno how about your characters, but i can say with absolute certainity, that mine didnt ... i allways come to the Goblin camp seeking for the way they are protecting themselves from the tadpole ... ready and willing to stab them in the back once they get that. If Larian wants evil path to have some credibility it needs to be very tempting. Nope ... full disagree here. I like the evil path as it is, all temptation i need is there for people who notice it, and those who dont ... well, they wouldnt take it anyway. The problem i have with temption in games is that many people dont really think about their decisions ... just see reward and go there ... dont care about what it means. :-/ I can't really come up with my own motivation. Tadpole is too overwhelming of a driving force - nothing else matters unless you get rid of it. I for one think this is perfectly valid approach ... Just not the only one. The game is also completely unconcerned about what my character might want to do. I cant really imagine how would the game even recognize it ... Doesnt really matter what you want, important is what you do.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
|
The game is also completely unconcerned about what my character might want to do. I cant really imagine how would the game even recognize it ... Doesnt really matter what you want, important is what you do. Give our PC an opportunity to express their viewpoints through dialogue choices. A wonderful example of it I would point to the opening of PoE1, where we get to further define our character background and reason to moving to Dyrwood - some of it even gets reactivity down the line. Even in simpler ways - no one really asks about our PCs viewpoint. The most I can think of is Shadowheart asking for your take on Rafael after the conversation, but it is more of a test then an opportunity to flesh out your character. I think that's one of the reason why BG3 protagonist feels like such a nothing - but then again, there is little to discuss in BG3. Game's story and conflict so far is untainted by any philosophical or moral dilemma. Edit. @Rag, could you please let me know how one kills companion permanently as to see the tadpole leaving? I want to try it out in my next playthrough. Edit2. I can’t find anything about the above online. You didn’t make shit up, did you Rag? That would be a new low even for you 
Last edited by Wormerine; 06/11/22 11:35 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
