To your second question first, yes maybe tactical RPGs. But I would just settle for calling them RPGs with no qualifier, which is what I do even with the so-called ARPGs. I just only differentiate between cRPGs and then RPGs generally, with cRPG being a sub-genre of RPG (the only one).
As for my list of core qualities of a cRPG: deep and rich main story questline as well as secondary quests; a lore-heavy and dynamic world/setting; nonlinear world exploration; branching, and possibly mutually-exclusive dialogue; deep characters and strong character development (for the PC as well as any companions and even key NPCs); wide range of character creation and customization options, especially for the PC; meaningful leveling up options; meaningful choices with reasonable and relevant consequences including mutually-exclusive options and outcomes; at least some gameplay subsystems such as stronghold-building or crafting and the like. There may be a few other criteria that I'm not thinking of right now off the top of my head. So this list is not entirely exhaustive.
DA:O was a strange game in terms of my ability to quite classify it, because it was Bioware's transition game from making cRPGs to making non-cRPG RPGs.
I would also add that it is not just Bioware and Larian that have moved on from making true cRPGs. Both Obsidian and inXile also now appear to have done so with their future games (Avowed, and inXile's unannounced AAA RPG). True cRPGs are now being made only by a handful of small indie studios (although Obsidian's Pentiment may still be a true cRPG; I haven't investigated it much). This is why you will see in my posts in other threads in this forum that I have consistently argued that neither D:OS2 nor BG3 should be compared with games like PoE, Pathfinder, or Solasta, but rather with games like what Bioware and CDPR have been making recently. That's the correct and proper comparison, in my opinion.
Hmmmm. Can I broadly summarize your definition of a cRPG as a tactical rpg with
significant amount of deep PC+NPC (companion) character development, significant character creation & customization options, and nonlinear world (but not "open world") exploration?
- DOSII, imo, has a deep and rich (enough) main story questline and secondary quests, lore-heavy world, character creation options, and crafting. But it didn't really have non-linear world exploration, significant game choice-consequences, or strong (non-Origin) PC character development.
- DAO, however, seems to fit most if not all of your criteria. "Deep and rich story," the extent of branching, "strong character development," "meaningful leveling up options," are of course all varied in what one considers sufficient. I suppose DAO doesn't really have crafting/stronghold..?
- The Witcher has most of your criteria but not NPC companions or character creation options, and is open world - which is nonlinear, but isn't split into sub-areas of BG1&2, PoE, etc. And obviously combat is more action = skill based, rather than stat/ability based.
I disagree that CDPR games should be directly comparable to DOSII/BG3. I'd put the Witcher 3 and CP2077 much closer to Skyrim than to DOSII/BG3, and DOSII/BG3 much closer to PoE & Pathfinder than recent CRPR/Bioware games.
stuff about DOSII being hugely influential/ renaissance of the cRPG genre
Do you think there is another dev/game that can be said to be significantly more influential on the newfound popularity of the crpg genre since 2010? PoE...died, and other very popular crpgs (Disco Elysium, Wasteland 3 [is it a crpg? or just a squad-based tactical combat game like XCOM?], Solasta, Owlcat's Pathfinders) were released after DOSII.
I suppose you could also categorize crpg fans into "classical crpg fans," who possibly enjoyed & think more highly of PoE & P:Km/WotR than DOSII, and "new crpg fans." As DOSII seems to have done a lot more to bring new players into the cRPG genre than any other recent game(?), I'm giving it more points for expanding/revitalizing the cRPG genre. It's more popular in general, even if other games might be more popular within the "classical rpg fanbase."
Speaking as someone who discovered the cRPG genre through DOS2 and actually went back and played almost every cRPG associated with this so called renaissance afterwards, crediting DOS2 with said renaissance and re-emergence of the genre is incredibly revisionist at best. It basically released halfway into it, and it didn’t really revitalize the genre at all - it feels way more like it was so successful that other developers pivoted out of the genre when they failed to match up. Especially when considering many cRPGs were RTwP before DOS2 came along.
Now there are absolutely no RTwP on the horizon that I’m aware of. Even Owlcat had pivoted to full turn based, and Disco detoured into its own sub-genre of cRPG (and may not get a sequel).
You cannot argue in good faith that Larian is responsible for the revival of the cRPG genre when it’d be far more accurate to say they and Owlcat basically hijacked the genre for themselves.
I mean, I'll point directly to your quote: "...who discovered the cRPG genre through DOS2 and actually went back and played almost every cRPG associated with this so called renaissance afterwards" Doesn't that speak to the influence of DOSII right there?
Your point that DOSII might have actually co-opted the genre, essentially changing the definition of a cRPG by encouraging future developers to make less "classical BG1&2-like cRPGs" and focus more on "DOSII-like games" is interesting.....if we accept that DOSII isn't a cRPG. Kanisatha kind of addressed this, but there's arguably a broad overlap between their definition of a crpg and DOSII. Maybe DOSII is only 70% cRPG, but that's more than 50%...so it' still mostly a cRPG.?
I strongly disagree with your implication that cRPGs need to be RTwP. You might prefer those games, and BG1&2, Planescape, PoE, etc might be RTwP, but that is not a defining characteristic of the genre (imo, or apparently according to kanisatha).
...also, are you saying that Owlcat's games
aren't cRPGs??? What. If P:Km and WotR aren't cRPGs, then nothing is.
