Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;)

Larian's interpretation of Jaheira looks like a young Jennifer Coolidge.

You've just sent me back looking at those old portraits and comparing them properly with the new BG3 model. I do think her BG1 portrait was as (or perhaps more) human looking than the new version, but I agree that the BG2 portrait from which her BG3 hairstyle is of course taken had bigger, more slanted eyes that I think of as more characteristic of elves. In terms of the human-ness/elfiness of her new model I think it strikes a reasonable balance.

But now you say it, and now I actually look at the old portraits, you're of course completely correct that she is paler and more northern European-looking than fits well with the possibly Mediterranean look of her old BG portraits and probably, as you say, her origins in Tethyr though I don't know much about FR lore on that point.

Fixed the link.
My point is that if you brought her up as an example of Larian making good elven features, it may be not really that. It's possible that they didn't think about her tilted eyes, narrow nose and chin as elven features, but they could think about all that as her own features, while looking at the picture done by Bioware years ago.
So her looking elven is not much of appeasement for those who want elves to look elven.
And that's how I feel about her face.

No ...

I simply wanted to know if people like her or not ...
And if people concider her to be "elvish enough" or not ...

To me, both yes.
Nothing else, nothing deeper, nothing more.

No, yes.

And I really like Shadowheart.

BTW beauty is related to the average. Most people questioned in scientific researches (aka not on a forum, more than 3 per study ...) name faces beautyful which don't deviate too much from the average of human face structures put together. There is of course room for a lot of personal taste on the finer details.

Not the most accurate rendition of Aerie, but at least it's in the ballpark as far as an Elfin physiognomy goes; Jaheira, on the other hand...she leans too Human (compared to her BG2 portrayal, to be specific).

I don't know how the hell I missed this development . The BG3 take on Jaheira is based on her BG2 portrait, yes?

Yes, she has the same hair ornaments and eye color.

But they did noticeably 'de-elfify' her eyes(smaller, different shape) and face shape a bit from that portrait, and perhaps more disappointing IMO, they seem to made her pretty unambiguously caucasian , which isn't really something I would expect to see happen in a modern game coming out in 2023...

"Caucasian" Human or "Caucasian" Elf? The reason I ask is because - unique features aside (e.g., the eyes and ears) - the overwhelming majority of Elves are modeled after real-world humans of European descent. Anyhow, I wonder if this attempt by L was designed to incorporate elements of her Baldur's Gate depiction.

Well, Jaheira is a half elf, and her human half is presumably Tethyran (if that’s the right adjective), so even if her elven parent were pale that could explain her more olive complexion in her BG1&2 pics. Assuming she has one elven and one human parent, and not two half elves. I’m not sure if we know?

Is there something wrong with Jaheira being unambiguously caucasian? Sorry I’m trying to understand the context of your statement, would you mind clarifying?

Does her background state her human heritage wasn’t caucasian?

The four most common elven varieties don't quite fall into categories that can neatly be described as 'Caucasian' Moon/Silver elves are probably the closest, though they also trend towards extremely albino-like paleness like Asterion. Sun/Gold Elves like Kahga are described as 'Bronze-skinned' which is not usually a descriptor applied to Caucasian skin, and Wood Elves have a wide range, including what could be described as Caucasian and darker complexions that probably would not. likely because of their ancestry IIRC coming from Sylvan/Green elves and Moon/Silver elves. Drow of course are Drow.

Well, IIRC Tethyr's elves are mostly Wood Elves, which often have darker complexions themselves, so someone with Tethyrian/Wood Elven descent being darker skinned would be quite plausible.


She's from Tethyr. Tethyr is the country between Calimshan and Amn and is somewhat analogous to Moorish Spain. As to what Thethyrians look like, 'blue eyes, dusky skin and brown hair' is the description of what the average Thethyrian looks like. Which accurately describes her BG II portrait which Larian based her BG III appearance off of. I guess Larian saw her blue eyes in her old portrait and just thought 'She must be Caucasian'?

Funny how looks are in the eyes of the beholder. I've always seen her Bg2 portrait as a fair skinned (albeit it with a mild tan) blye eyed blonde. Her Bg1 portrait on the other hand looks more mediterranean to me.

Do any of you folks know of any reference in D&D canon/lore concerning how - if at all - Half-Elves change in appearance as they age? I don't want to give Larian any undue credit, because the design choices made while they were crafting their interpretation of Jaheira likely included "Must be conventionally appealing to a certain audience.". All the same, I am interested in finding out if even one D&D writer covered this aspect of Half-Elf physiology.

There is no "Caucasus" region in The Forgotten Realms.

I'm not sure where you are going with your comment? I think both of us clearly understand that from our comments...that there is no such thing as a literal 'Caucasian' in the Realms....but there are analogues to various RL ethnicities and cultures, even if those associations are somewhat loose in places.

As to elven aging, from what I have gathered from some author's writings, Elves very much embody youthful vigor and energy physically. They don't get bowed with age or wrinkles on their face etc until they are very close to death, and elven 'death by old age' is almost as much a matter of willpower as it is physical limits. That is to say, Ennui invites the call of Avandor.

Physical effects if/and when they manifest are similar to humans. Though in drow there's some mention of sexual dimorphism with women's hair yellowing and men's greying with extreme age.

In anticipation of this game's upcoming release, I would like to bring this thread back to the forefront; the perspectives of folks that haven't been constantly kept apprised of Larian's development are going to be especially interesting .

Most BG2 portraits ranged from meh to eww ... piercings, rat-tails, dreadlocks EVERYWHERE ... in my eye very, very few were as good as the BG1 ones, let alone improvements (here Viconia comes to mind).
As to the Bg3 Jaheira - I like the facial features and colouring, the hairdo is still stupid. Unless all those dumb, stupid, disgusting, idiotic, have I said I dislike the rings in the hair? - give her +1 armour or at least protect from Critical Hits to the noggin ...

I like all the rings, twists, feathers, beads, etc in the hair and beards in the BG2 portraits (I think only Mazzy and Valygar actually have what look like proper dreadlocks?). If all you've got to bring a unique character to life is a face shot, then I figure you may as well add some detail and interest. Plus I had a similar beaded, semi-dreaded hairstyle myself in the earlier 90s, so perhaps it was all the rage when the artist was forming their aesthetic sensibilities ... or just the fashion in Faerun in the late 1300s!

As to the elven look in BG3, and with apologies if I already said this earlier in this thread, I never really agreed with the posters who objected to the elven male pics. I think the full-elf males look rather odd, sure, but in a way that feels plausible for elves. Even the big-jawed one in the original post, which is the one I like least, can sort of work with the right hairstyle. The male half-elves are generally prettier, I agree, except for the one that I think looks more like a half-orc, but isn't that the lore and some of the rationale for the +2 charisma, ie that the combination of elves and humans is more attractive than each race separately?

I do have problems with the female elves, who I agree mainly don't look particularly elven to me. But since they added one new face that I like in a later patch, the situation has improved somewhat. I like the female half-elves even less, and while I've found a hair/face combo for most of my BG3 character concepts I can't get a female half-elf I'm happy with. I do think that part of my problem with the female half-elves is that I find too many of the hairstyles I'd otherwise like to use for them clip through the ears which I find unbearable. Sometimes I think I don't like a face on my character then see it with a particular hairdo and change my mind, but when so many of the hairstyles are unusable that's far less likely to happen.

Though of course choices for all elven subraces and genders wouldn't be welcome. And I do hope that at the very least Larian will make (slightly morphed for racial appropriateness) versions of more of the existing faces available for different races. I think the KT faces mod that has a number of tweaked versions of various faces show this is a relatively low cost way for Larian to give us more choice. Though I hope they'll not only do that!

I suppose that
De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est

applies as to LS' elven mugs ... or BG2 hairstyling accessories :P

As to hairstyles- in the early 90s I had a mullet ...