Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General What else do you think Larian is keeping a secret?

That was, what I meant. Depending on what your character does, he can swing either way. You mentioned His very selfish behavior to get backbinto Mystras good graces. That alone shows, that he has some not so good tendencies in him. On the other hand, he is really happy, when the party does good. So I guess we can be the deciding factor here. We already can see a glimpse, when he deals with Rafael, when he doesn't get feed magical items.
And yes, I guess most companions can go either way later on. I don't see that in Astarion though, I rather see him becoming an antagonist later on. He seems to be as evil as they come. And I'm not sure with Lae'zel, she would really have to change her whole personality.

I do not see Astarion as necessarily a bad person, as his actions are mostly driven out of fear of Cazador rather than his ambitions. His search for power, not liking wasting time on helping peasantry and such are all the result of his fears because he under no circumstances wants to return to him as a slave again. It's why he is so jumpy all the time and has outbursts.

He did afterall spend the last 200 years being tortured and starved on a daily basis. That kind of mental and physical torture would mentally break people, so if anything I admire Astarion for keeping his sanity and remaining semi-decent. No denying he is changed slightly for the worse and self-centered, but realistically that kind of torture would create a murder hobo who would never trust anyone again. Like a badly mishandled dog that bares its teeth at anyone who tries to approach it with love and care because it no longer trusts humans. Yet with time they grow to trust once again.

So I see him just as I saw Sebille. An innocent elf taken against their own will through clever machinations and enslaved to be used as a tool to do inhumane things. Who naturally end up broken, jumpy and untrustful because of it, but they slowly start to open up more and get to show their true selves to the world eventually once the emotional wounds are healed. Sebille went from cold and distanced deadly assassin to an affectionate good-willed puppy by the end of the story.

Or just like Visas Marr in Star Wars KOTOR 2. A pure force user and only survivor of her race, taken and corrupted by Darth Nihilus who Meetra Surik later saves. Visas becomes once again a pure force user with proper hope and ideals and after the story she brings back her dead wasteland of a planet back to life with the force.

I also do not see Lae'zel as bad either. Considering her teachings and culture, she is actually doing splendidly all things considering. Like her remarks about her cutting our tongue out for interrupting her or skewering Zorru. People might think of these as shallow jokes or threats or think it is her personality speaking, but they in fact show her morals by breaking protocol and Githyanki customs. By Githyanki standards she is quite merciful, respectful and nice and gives us leniency when it comes to not understanding her. She even grows to like us and admire us as time goes by, especially if we take interest into her culture. Not to mention she already in Act 1 starts seeing Faerun slightly different than when she first arrives.

So yeah I honestly do not think any companion so far is evil or bad. Neutral at best, but they are so misunderstood and judged way too quickly. Minthara might be the only evil one, but I doubt she might be fully because she is afterall controlled by the Absolute and doesn't know it. I assume we might save her from the Absolute later and show her the way.

What I am trying to say is; people can change and it's too early to judge them. In Larian games some start as douchebags and slowly become fantastic likeable people that are like family by the end of the game. I absolutely loved Sebille and Red Prince stories for example. Very well written and quite memorable moments with them.

Honestly, I think the real problem is the idea of evil itself. I think it is better to think of "selfishness" than literally "does the character murder cute puppies". Whenever we think about evil in the real world as truly unmotivated, I think that is mainly us not understanding deeply enough what need it serves for the person. Maybe they kill for a sense of control, maybe out of greed, maybe out of a sense of inferiority, maybe...

But almost nobody irl really hurts others just for the sake of it, without getting anything from it. Rather, real evil shows itself in the disregard towards the feelings of others when your desires and theirs come into conflict. There, an actual good person might actively work against their own personal goals in order to protect others.

Take finance for example. Nobody really WANTS to screw people over. I am sure that every single person in the 08 crash would have been happier if it did not happen. But it did, despite some people realizing beforehand that there was a problem. And for some people, seeing that instability was enough to opt out, loosing profits themselves, to not hurt others, for others, it was not.

So basically:
good vs evil = selflessness vs selfishness
law vs chaos = principles vs pragmatism

All companions apart from ironically enough Laezel (who acts in the interest of her people and queen, not her own, she is willing to die to not turn!), Gale (maybe, not sure yet) and Shadowheart act very selfishly.

This can best be seen in Wyll, who yes, like everyone, wants other people not to suffer as long as it comes at no cost to him. But as soon as he has something to gain (Mizoras location), he is perfectly willing to do the most evil acts you could do (torture, imo arguably worse than even murder) without a second thought.

Astarion similarily does not WANT others to be hurt or be enslaved. But I mean, who would?
Would he risk his own freedom and safety so that others can escape that fate though? Would he still do good things if it came at a cost? I am not so sure...

We've deviated from the original topic, yet still, the whole discussion is quite interesting. I've also noticed that those who try to divide things in good and evil are usually the type to find a convenient foe as well. This person is good, this person is bad. To this one I'll sing praises and on that one I'll focus all my bad emotions. Also I wonder, how would this "cartoony allgood" party play itself? I mean, would it look like some judgemental fest? Or a reload fest, to make 0 mistakes and please everyone...

This is from Minsc and Boo's journal of villainy. Not official TSR material but still published work

That's how I view things as well. Well put (although, I wouldn't compare people to animals but at the end of the day, the comparison works 😅).
I do like to have my Tavs being inspired by Astarion, for the reasons that you've pointed out. You can even find an agreement with him after the infamous bite scene. So, he's not without reason. After that, he stays on his best behavior (unless the player controls him to not to do that, of course). That, and, I find him fun to have around. I really like this type of eccentric characters ^^

Plus, DAO and DA2 taught me to give a pass or two to murderous elf boys. Their stories are worth it 😅 (I guess the same could be said about Sebille in DOS2 but I haven't finished the game yet).

Same for Laez'el. Her beliefs are rooted in her culture but she's not that monochrome either. I wholeheartedly love how she's perplexed/confused when she finds herself agreeing with us. And I will always respect honest/truthful characters. Evil or not, at the end of the day, you know what's she's thinking and where she stands because she's very blunt about it.



This. A 100% this!



Agree, but also, technically we are talking about the potential fates of the companions, which is something being kept secret by Larian 😈

Oh those poor misunderstood companions. None of them are evil. They're actually all good! Really!!

LOL. Love all the spinning and rationalizing about evil not really being evil. Great way to justify doing evil things and being allowed to get away with it, I imagine.

Hah, he's found a new convenient foe! Larian is not the primary target now, we are! Logic spinners, of evil dreamers!! Haha, never leaving the character, do you? Guess thinking of evil and good like a 5-year old must have some charming allure

The game is designed so players have to compromise. Unless Larian changed things from stuff I datamined a few patches ago, but back then I really doubted it was possible to bring everyone to act 2 because of the disposition system, some camp cutscenes where someone can dies/leave and some personal stories clashing with other quests.

Also, some people have this idea that an evil character would follow the path of joining the Absolute because it is the evil path. But this isn't an organization, it's a religious cult. Joining them means converting to the Absolute as a god. Not every evil characters would want to do that. Faithful evil clerics/paladins should be all over the plans to destroy the cult.

And since now we have non-origin companions, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a few more available past act 1, especially if you follow the path of joining the Absolute cult (which is something that is hinted at being more than goblins vs grove) since most known companions will be against the idea. But I do not expect that many more. Probably two, who slot in for Jaheira and Minsc.

But that is if the Absolute doesn't try last minute temptations. Take Wyll, what happens if the Absolute propose to break his contract with his Patron and give him power instead? Gale and his chest problem? Astarion and his sunlight?
I think Shadowheart and Lae'zel are the only incorruptible there + Jaheira and Minsc.

Other things that Larian is keeping secret:
- a building in Baldur's Gate for resting in instead of an outdoor camp once we get access to the city.
- more custom Tav VO (there are actually more in the games file already).

Good and evil were explained very well in 1969 by Captain Kirk to Yarnek the Lava Creature in the episode, "The Savage Curtain". Although the battle tactics of both the "good" and "evil" sides of the contest were similar, the real difference lay in the nature of the prizes promised to the winner ..., uh, well, that is if you ignore the fact that Yarnek was forcing them to fight and so in reality they had no choice, and thus simple survival was really more of the motivation regardless of any moral direction. So I guess the bottom line is really that the Lava People were sort of evil, even though they did not understand the concept, and in the end they let the Enterprise go in peace and everybody was happy, which was really nice, so uh, hmmm ... by Leira's misty heart, I really don't know anything!

According to James Ohlen's original D&D character sheet (you can see it on Wikipedia!), Minsc has a sister. That's the secret I hope Larian is going to pull out of the hat ... er, helmet.

When it comes to alignment and morality, the companions are all fairly complex.

Lae'zel and Astarion are the most clearly evil. Lae'zael is pretty heavily influenced by LE Githyanki society and doesn't really stray from their morals (she doesn't like acts of kindness or mercy etc.) Her arc will probably have her questioning her own beliefs and upbringing. For the time being though she's a pretty clear LE like most other Githyanki.

Astarion is also definitely evil. He's a huge asshole to everyone, enjoys acts of cruelty, and doesn't like when you help people out. He's not too bothered by taking the evil path with the druid grove, in fact he's pretty happy with how it all turned out. While he's sympathetic in some aspects, he's still not a great guy to be around. The only thing he really seems to care about is himself and his own freedom. He's a pretty clear CE.

Shadowheart is where things start to get complex. While she does worship Shar, she has a pretty surprising amount of depth. Her main deal is that she's very "anti-intervention", in the sense that she doesn't like when the player starts fights or intervenes in situations that they don't need to. Instead she definitely likes when the player tries to talk things out and resolve situations peacefully without violence. Unlike Lae'zel and Astarion, she doesn't really have a problem with the player helping people out or being kind so long as they're not wasting time. Her reaction to the evil path is also pretty interesting; she gets shit-faced drunk in order to try and drown out her guilt. She's very obviously not okay with what happened to the tieflings, which is in pretty stark contrast to how much happier she is in the good path. I'd put her currently as a neutral evil leaning heavily towards true neutral.

Wyll is definitely good. While he may be kind of a blowhard who loves personal glory, he's still ultimately a fairly heroic person who wants to help people and enjoys when the player does so. He's not a perfect person though since aside from his arrogance he's slightly obsessed with revenge and shows no mercy towards goblins. At the same time, he's still has a moral code and is the only companion that will always leave the party if you ally with the goblins. I'd put him as a LG leaning towards LN. He reminds me of Anomen from BG2 in a lot of ways, albeit he's not nearly as much of an asshole as Anomen was.

Gale is a lot like Wyll when it comes to morals. However he's also fairly reckless, foolhardy, and arrogant. While he does show kindness and is a fairly altruistic person with how he likes the player helping people and doing good deeds, his morals are not as strong as someone like Wyll. If the player takes the evil path, Gale is pretty horrified by the party's actions and will also try to leave the party. However, unlike Wyll, the player can convince him to stay by essentially saying that he'd never survive on his own. I'd put him as a true neutral character leaning towards neutral good.

Actually the comparison to animals is quite important when it comes to Astarion as the whole point of what Cazador was doing to him was to dehumanize him. By treating him like he's a chained savage beast that needs to be beat down through physical and mental torture, starvation and isolation, while obeying orders which he cannot refuse. He talks about this a lot in the game and his tone completely shifts when he does, especially when talking about the way he was treated daily which is quite important to his essence as a character.

Which is why I felt important to compare him to a mistreated dog who bares its fangs, because that is pretty much the essence of who Astarion is now until his emotional wounds heal. He is extremely damaged, uneasy, fearful and jumpy along with extreme emotional outbursts. One scene I really love with him that shows this beautifully is the one where you can persuade him to talk in detail about his dreams. And if you succeed, you can offer to comfort him about it, which will cause him to burst in anger towards you, which is simply his defensive mechanism born out of what Cazador did to him. I personally really like his complex character since he is not so simple black and white as other people deem him to be. He has layers upon layers of mental and emotional issues as a result of Cazador's torture, that it is a miracle he is who he is.

And just like you said, he is actually quite reasonable as a person and not even bad because he does nothing bad in my playthroughs. He himself says that he won't feed on any innocents and begs us to at least let him feed on enemies, but respects our choice on the matter if we tell him not to feed on humanoids. Even when he is starving for blood, he respects our wishes if we don't let him bite us (I do let him bite me though, feel sorry for him ). That does not sound to me like an evil douchebag devoid of any morals as people try to portray him.

My expectation of Astarion is that he will grow more trusting along the way throughout the game and show us a charming noble that he was prior to meeting Cazador, eventually becoming a character that plenty of people will love and enjoy having in the party. And I believe Astarion will either be freed as a vampire in the end of the game or become a true vampire thus create his own covenant and rule it with compassion and restriction that we taught him. And I expect him to make jokes about it along the way as he has been so far

Such a brilliant character really and Neil Newbown did an amazing job with him. Also liked his work in Resident Evil 3 Remake.

Well none of them are say Joffrey or that other psychopath who tortured Theon Greyjoy in game of thrones
Now that’s evil 👿…

As we escaped Irenicus's dungeon with a group of 3 companions of whom were both Jaheira and Minsc, Larian may keep secret the presence of Imoen.
For sure, she might be dead 100 years after ToB but as we know she decided to abandon Bhaal's essence at the end of ToB (that means she doesn't have to die for Bhaal's resurection, does she?),  and start her new life by reading everything she could at Candlekeep, traveling with Elminster and Khelben, building a powerfull guild of thiefs, for sure she has been able to collect a lot of knowledges and powerfull items, perhaps something big enough to beat Bhaal. So I might like to see her connected to BG3, maybe not physically but at lest as the form of her heritage, something she left behind. Whould it be through a descendant of her? / through her guil? / through her tomb? her in person? (She might have found a way to preserve herself from age after all). If i'm right, does this heritage linked to Shadowheart and her mysterious artifact?
I'm pretty excited to see if Larian decided to use her or include her in some way but in my opinion, if someone possess the key to solve the Absolute quest or a bigger problem, she has to be part of it somehow.

I don't know how anyone could see Astarion as anything more the pure evil. He is sadistic, cruel and deceptive. He finds joy in others suffering. That is not a self defence mechanism. Whatever cruelty he experience doesn't remotely excuse his behaviour. I can't think of more dispicable and a less trustworthy companion. I doubt he wouldn't kill or sell out Tav if it benefited/amused him.

I don't see him as pure evil because of compassion and understanding. I played with Astarion in my party multiple times and he doesn't do a single bad thing in my playthroughs nor do I have any issue getting his attitude high primarily making good decisions. Sure he has his opinions on certain matters, but that's pretty much all he does. He's pretty much harmless as long as he's with me and he's behaving himself.

If he was pure evil, then he would gut Gandrel on the spot without a moment of hesitation. He'd feed on the innocents and he'd try biting us even after saying no. But he's being a good boy instead, despite his issues. Maybe if people gave him a chance and actually took him along for a playthrough, they'd see he ain't so bad as they thought ^^

He has to kill to live. Heck, he can even kill Tav but what does death really mean in a world where you carry around ressurection scrolls

He doesn't outright attack Gandrel because he would probably stand no chances with him, weakened from living off animals and the whole tadpole business. I don't think he would think twice if he felt a bit stronger.

We have no way of knowing his true intentions but everything he does seems like playing it nice and keeping with the group for as long as they protect him. Nobody from the companions we know right now would willingly stick around if they didn't personally need it.

I don't think anyone see Astarion as not evil but at the very least he can be viewed with sympathy. The guy used to be a normal guy but got turned against his will, captured and tortured for more that hundred of years. The first time you see him is his first moment of freedom in a very long time. Of course his world view is twisted by his past.

Edit : also worth noting he is still hunted by Cazador, so he might be paranoid and rightfully so.

I don't think Astarion is pure evil, but he's still evil. As Wormerine said, he's sadistic, cruel, petty, etc. But I do think that considering he was, until we met him, undergoing centuries of torture, humiliation and enslavement, he deserves a little compassion. He had literally no agency for 200 years or so. He went from Cazador to the nautiloid and Wwhen we meet him, he can probably count the HOURS he's been free on one hand. Because of that, I don't think we can really make a judgement on him being pure evil or not. That sort of thing would twist anybody into the worst version of themselves. It can't be overstated that he physically could not resist Cazador's instructions, so its not even a case of "he could have chosen to disobey." He literally was not in control of his actions, and

At the same time, I don't think calling him harmless is accurate either. Firstly we have the gameplay issue of Larian probably not wanting the companions to act entirely outside our control as the players. So I think that on a meta level, some of his "good behaviour" is down to that. Also there is the fact that, again, he has not been able to act with his own agency for literal centuries and was not freed until literally when we meet him. So part of it is likely also that he's just...spineless, for lack of a better word. He does what we say because he doesn't want to get on our bad side and doesn't want to burn bridges with potentially valuable allies. He did very clearly try and feed on us without our knowing, so when he does take his own initiative, he's hardly faultless.

Ultimately, I think Astarion is redeemable and deserves some grace, but any redemption he might gain would require a combination of genuine compassion yes, but also someone firm enough to not indulge his worse aspects or let him go crazy with his freedom. Someone who can empathise with how much of his attitude and outlook is probably a trauma response, but who will still hold him accountable for what he does now that he's free and able to choose for himself.

I'm calling it now that by the end of the game, Astarion will be a good boy and like family to us with a very heartwarming ending. If I'm wrong, feel free to come here in one year and tell me I was wrong

To me the current companions are not below neutral at all. Since the world itself isn't black and white, neither are they. Just shades of gray pretty much and quite likeable. I also personally quite like how Larian does companions because relationships with them do not start nicely. Instead they gradually and naturally grow and blossom into something beautiful, which is why I appreciate it so much. To me it's a reward all of its own and a reason why I adored so much Sebille and Red Prince in DOS2. It was beautiful and magical what they did with them.