Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Exhaustion and Berserker Balance

In other threads, it has been suggested that Larian is going to reintroduce an exhaustion mechanic. This is of course most interesting for Berserker Barbarians, who right now, because of the lack of exhaustion, are the strongest subclass in the game.

I am not sure if they will stay the strongest or if this is an artifact of the game currently stopping at level 4 (at lv 5, they go from 2x the attacks of a fighter to 1.5x, and at 11, fighters also have 3, in addition to Riposte, extra feats/ ASIs, other maneuvers etc), but I am sure that Berserkers in 5e are really, really terrible, specifically because of the exhaustion mechanic.

Barbarians will have 3-5 rages per day in the full game. That means, if you actually use your class features and do not rest after every little fight (which, again, goes against the narrative of the game, with us trying to QUICKLY remove the parasite before we turn, time is not on our side), you will either quickly gain multiple levels of exhaustion, or simply not get to use your main subclass feature.

Now, frenzy is not just a little ribbon feature for Berserkers, it IS the subclass.
At later levels, they can not be charmed or frightened when raging, and gain a TERRIBLE intimidation feature, based on their charisma, which is likely a dump stat.
(Sidenote: Please change Intimidating Presence, so that it is based on str. My Barbarian is not trying to threaten the enemy with their wit, he is flexing his muslces)

And I think people might not appreciate just how terrible exhaustion levels are.
Level Effect
1 Disadvantage on ability checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 Death

Yes, you read that right, 6 levels of exhaustion, and you simply die. And even 3 levels make you more or less unplayable.

So either, you basically play without subclass features (why pick a berserker then?) or you have to rest after every time you use frenzy, so probably every combat. Sure, that is the optimal way to play anyways because of wizards, but is it fun? And is it how you would roleplay these characters in this situation? Again, time is running out!

Now, there are three ways to possibly fix the problem.

1) Do not include exhaustion
This means, that spells like Sickening Radiance can not be included at all, and possibly makes Berserkers too strong, especially at level 3 and 4.

2) Reduce the consequences of exhaustion
This would again make Sickening Radiance useless, but would at least allow for some overworld mechanics etc that also include exhaustion.
Berserkers would still gain more and more exhaustion though. So you have to remove the death mechanic from exhaustion, as well as the more brutal consequences. Even if you add more intermediary levels of exhaustion, so that you only die at lv 10 etc, eventually Berserkers will reach those levels of exhaustion! You simply gain them faster than you can long rest. Kind of defeats the purpose of the feature...

3) Only change Berserkers
It seems to me the problem is not exhaustion itself, but just how quickly Berserkers can gain levels of exhaustion, and how hard it is to remove them. Instead of changing the exhaustion mechanic itself, I would suggest changing the actually problematic feature, that being the Berserker subclass.

I think, Berserkers specifically (not other classes or even other Barbarians) should have the ability to remove a level of exhaustion with short or long rests, not just long rests. That still means you are limited in how often you can use frenzy (2 shor rests per long rest, but up to 5 uses of frenzy), and especially limits how often you can use it consecutively in dungeon crawls. So the idea behind the subclass feature is still intact, it is just not as crippling for the subclass.

And it DOES let the player experience the consequences of overexhausting themselves.
But it does no longer punish the player for simply playing the game as intended.
It also does not interfere with other exhaustion features, in particular the spell Sickening Radiance.

So TL;DR:
- include exhaustion like in the PHB
- add a feature to Berserkers, that lets them remove one level of exhaustion per SHORT OR LONG rest

+1

Especially for

Overall I think adding a limiting factor to barbarian is necessary. Maybe even include the threat of being downed by misusing it too much. Case and point is well, Solasta. Rage does not have any downsides there either, which leads to barbarian being a better tank at times than fighters lol. As for needing to get rid of tadpole as fast as possible, that is not entirely a thing though. Barbarians do need their counterbalance to the rage. If the threat of dying is too much for the average player, I suggest having each level of exhaustion adding a debuff to either to hit chance or movement radius.

This is another subclass that has been not-so great since the beginning of 5e.

People don't play berserker barbs often because the benefit you get from frenzy is simply not good enough to counter the exhaustion you get afterwards. That bonus action attack is literally all you get from frenzy, none of the other berserker features use it or reference it at all. While that doesn't make it a bad feature, it's also not something I would consider taking levels of exhaustion to get at. Without exhaustion, berserker barb is one of the more offensive barbarian subclasses, it's also one of the most bland subclasses.

So, what can be done? Changing exhaustion is definitely an option, and I think that taking a look at the new proposed exhaustion rules from onednd might be beneficial, because they are far less severe than the current rules, but still impose penalties. The question will be whether or not larian is able to (or care enough about the viability of berserker barbs with 5e exhaustion mechanics) to do so.

I like the new rules, but I think it is still a bad solution here, because at 10 levels of exhaustion, you still die.

You remove 1!!! level every day, and you are able to get another 3-5 every day. So even if the penalties are reduced in severity, you can NEVER remove exhaustion more quickly than you gain it, unless you literally play without your core class feature.

Sure you can have 5 levels of exhaustion with the new rules and still somewhat function. But what then? Stay crippled at 5 levels permanently, and only use frenzy once a day? Or spam 5 long rests in a row you do not really need to return to 0 levels?

Even if 9 levels of exhaustion literally did nothing, it would still be problematic, since, by just using the class feature a normal amount, you will eventually reach 10...

Path of the berserker is not defined by Frenzy - that's just one part of the kit, and it should be tactical choice by the player whether a situation warrants frenzying or not. If it's just something that you use every single opportunity, then it's not a feature that you're making a choice about, as a player- it's just a thing that happens, and that's uninteresting. You might have three encounters a day and choose to rage for all of them, at level 3... but only tactically elect to frenzy once, on the final major fight of the day. A barbarian that frenzies at every opportunity will quickly wear themselves out and become a liability to the party, the same as a spellcaster who expends all of their spell resources as soon as possible and then runs dry when it matters.

A Berserker can comfortably wear two to three levels of exhaustion without really being ill-affected by it; they can take advantage to negate the attack disadvantage whenever they like, and they generally have advantage on the most common physical saves (Dex from danger sense, and Strength from Rage) anyway; being at 3 exhaustion for a berserker only really brings them back into 'flat state' with everyone else. It sucks, but it's not crippling, and wearing that penalty if you're really burning at both ends is a tactical choice the player can make for themselves as to whether it's worth it or not.

Don't undersell the other features in the kit: Berserker gains immunity to two of the most common ways that a barbarian loses their rage: charming (which either leads to them not attacking/taking damage, or else incapacitates them along with it), and frighten (which often leads to them not being able to make an attack, and sometimes also preludes what actions they are allowed to take); as much as it's a passive boon while raging, it's a potent one.

Intimidating presence is a little lacklustre, certainly, but it's not something that you generally use in combat - it's something that you tend to use before combat breaks out, or in social situations... and yes, it's Charisma. You aren't hitting them with your muscles, you're attempting to intimidate them with the force of presence that you and your muscles exude; it's a Charisma check through and through, and I'm honestly very tired of low charisma barbarians playing like they're high charisma, and asking for concessions to be granted to them for it. If you walk into a room and make a scene and flex your goods and roar, and you play your barb as comfortable doing that and as being able to really project their presence around a room... you're playing like you've got high charisma, and if you're doing that with your 8 charisma and expecting anything more than to be ignored or sniggered at, then that's as much of an rp faux pas as walking into a library and engaging with the local archmage about higher theoretics of planar travel with you're 8 intelligence. You can try both of them, but your chances of really doing it effectively are slim.

Retaliation isn't to be sniffed at either - it's a way of ensuring that the barbarian functionally always gets to use their reaction to attack something every turn, which is a really strong boon as well, considering that *most* turns go by without opportunity attacks being provoked, under normal circumstances.

Even with a proper exhaustion mechanic, Berserker is more solid than you give it credit for. That's not to say that it doesn't end up looking pale alongside some of the newer, and increasingly power-creep-prone paths - it's the oldest path we have for 5e, and the newer paths are progressively more 'interesting'... but it is solid nonetheless.

The concession that I would make would be to give them a feature that - as you suggest - allows them to remove 1 level of exhaustion on a short rest, but only Once per Long Rest, similar to the way wizards can only use Arcane Recovery once, no matter how many short rests the party takes. Remember that you already get one level of exhaustion recovered on Long Rest already - so that would effectively let the berserker Frenzy twice per day without any negatives at all, and only start to wear actual costs after that.

This all assumes that Larian are going to add an exhaustion mechanic for players - as others mentioned, that debuff on the bird has been there since day one.

So true...

Why?
A hill giant has a cha of 6. You are some peasant and encounter one in the wild. He clearly does not like your presence and roars, while raising his club. Are you scared or not?

If Volo the Bard, with his civilian clothes, happened to be closeby, picked up a little stick from the ground and also stared at you menacingly, would you be scared now? More than by the giant?

It depends on what intimidation is used for. If it is me being clever and threatening you with revealing some secret etc sure, it is a cha skill.

But my wizard is not scary because of their charisma, he is scary because from the magical gear he has and the lightning coming from his staff, you can clearly see he is a powerful wizard, so his int. My fighter is not scary because of his wit or because he will outsmart you and embarass you in front of your group, he is scary because he has a long sharp stick of metal and enough muscles to hurt you with it.

Most skill checks should be dependant on the situation and what you are actually doing with them

Qoray, you don't seem to understand what Charisma is or represents in D&D but that's not the topic of your thread, and I wouldn't want to derail it.

I like this idea ...
But i dare to say that i think Long rest should simply remove all exhaustion, no matter the level ... i mean, lets be honest with each other, all we would need to do in BG-3 would be to simply click that Long Rest button again (and possibly again) and we wouldnt even need to spend another Camping Supplies.
So why bother?

Yes, and they still will with my suggestion. You still have more uses of frenzy than short or long rests, so you can not easily remove all levels of exhaustion. You simply do not have the silly situation of only being able to use the feature once.

You can not frenzy at any opportunity, you can frenzy once or the levels build up.

Sure, charm and frighten immunity is nice, but can be replicated with muliple races, spells or magic items. But yes, I should not have neglected that feature.


We can have theoretical discussions about their viability all you want, but in the end, in tabletop, nobody is playing them. Why is that?

They see less play because they're less flashy than other paths, and it's an old path, compared to newer shinier things... and because Totem Barbarian has long been considered too OP to really give other paths a major look in unless they're super interesting, which, mechanically, Berserker is not. Off the top of my head I can think of three people who have a Berserker barbarian in their line-up of played characters, though I'm actually not one of them myself, and that's just people I know of, so they still do see use...

BG3 likely won't implement variant skill checks, so being able to do an Intimidation (Strength) check will remain a tabletop-only mechanic.

It's frustrating for the exact same reason that most Clerics being rubbish at Religion checks (or Druids at Nature checks) is frustrating, but that's the mechanics of the game, and we don't have a nice DM to change the rules on the fly to make us feel better about dumping INT.

Berserkers are probably the worst designed 5e subclass, probably even worse than champions. Having a subclass feature that actively kills you for using it is horribly punishing, hence why every other Barb subclass is way more popular in TT.

There's a lot of homebrew solutions to this but the one I personally use in my TT sessions is to take a page from how Rage worked in 3.5e/Pathfinder 1e. Instead of giving you a full level of exhaustion when your Frenzy ends, you should only get a "temporary" level of exhaustion that lasts for a minute and cannot kill you. If you want it to be more punishing, you can make it so that if you Frenzy again within that minute it becomes a permanent level of exhaustion. This way you're still punished for letting your rage drop mid-battle, but you're not actively killing yourself by using your subclass feature. You'll atleast be able to Frenzy multiple times per day without having to spend multiple days resting in order to not die.

+1 that Berserker Barbarians need some type of Buff relating to Exhaustion.
But I also agree that removing a level of exhaustion on every short rest is maybe a bit too powerful. Frenzy is supposed to be an ability with repercussions - you're pushing your body to its limits.

Possible Simple Solution: Berserker Barbarians restore an additional level of exhaustion each night (or, 1x/day during a short rest). They still cannot frenzy every time they rage, but they get a bit more flexibility and needed power than RAW.

Possible More Complex Solution: Characters (maybe only Berserkers) can make a Con ST to restore an additional level of exhaustion on a short and/or long rest.
- You automatically restore 1 level of exhaustion upon a long rest
- The DC would need to be relatively high - DC 20 for restoring an additional level during a long rest, DC 25 on a short rest?
This way, it's possible to restore more than a single level of exhaustion each day, but not guaranteed. Level 1-7 Barbs should have Con STs of +6-ish, so with 3 short rests per day, they'd restore on average 1.65 levels of exhaustion each day.

Intimidation checks are tied to the charisma attribute. It is as simple as that. You can be proficient in intimidation and accumulate terrifying presence with levels by raising your proficiency. Otherwise, you need to be charismatic to exude that presence. Charisma does not equal cunning or guile. Your example has some validity, because in the dnd sessions, from my experience (though limited), a DM can give you "story" advantage in a situation where your frightening appearance happens to be a part of the world logic. For example, it makes sense for an unarmed peasant to fear an armed fighter. But to intimidate a seasoned mercenary you'll need some extra effort - and that effort draws from your charisma score.

Yeah, but I am not asking for every intimidation check to be made with str by Barbarians, I am asking for this one feature to be changed.

In general, most intimidation checks are still used in conversation, and tie to either us as a group (not just this one characters strength), hidden knowledge, ..., so they should be kept as cha. It makes no sense to say to the goblin "step aside, or I tell your boss that you did not want to let me in because you did not believe me" and then roll a skill check based on strength, even for the barbarian.

But in this feature, you always frighten with your physical power, so it should be changed imo. Both from a roleplaying standpoint, but also from a balance standpoint. Using your tur to frighten one creature, and then use your action each rounds to keep the enemy frightened is not exactly strong. The fear spell affects multiple characters, can be cast at lv 5, and does not take your action to keep active. So the feature does not need to be made even weaker.

Quick nitpick =) Volo is a wizard not a bard (Odd wizard yes). Other than that your point is still valid.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Volothamp_Geddarm

How about during Frenzy, you don’t feel the effects of Exhaustion? Allows you to use the core part of the subclass while having counter effects coming out and role-playing opportunities. Also, if we make it to level 20, we become a character perpetually (gain unlimited charges of Rage at lvl 20) in Frenzy with infinite exhaustion, punished if we come out of Frenzy.

No, you're misunderstanding what Charisma is and what it represents, as mentioned. You are not intimidating with your physical strength - you aren't physically doing anything to them. You are attempting to impress up on them that your physical strength is worth being frightened of - you are trying to project that you are to be feared. This is not about whether or not your strength is something to be feared - it IS, and that's a fact! - this is about how well you can convey and impress that on others... which is Charisma.

Think about it the other way around, and it might help:

Let us imagine a powerful character. They are a blacksmith in a township, but they are strong and capable, and when push comes to shove they have a force of prowess that is to be reckoned with; they've got 20 strength and 20 con, and they are built like a mountain... however... they are quiet, unassuming, and in truth, they are socially anxious and a little bit self conscious about their size. They grow uncomfortable if they have to talk to more than two or three people at once, and begin to lose their train of thought and fumble their words when they have to deal with that. They have a Charisma of 5.

It does not matter that this individual can literally lift a house if they have to, and it does not matter that they win every physical competition and feat of strength or ability in their township at every festival every year... they simply don't have any presence, and they lack the ability to project or impress their presence on others. The others in town are not afraid of them - and rightly so in this case - but even if they tried to be brazen and intimidating, they'd likely stumble over it, hesitate at the wrong moments, and in all likelihood, folks wouldn't really take them too seriously.

Now, you CAN walk into a university of the arcane with your 6 intelligence barbarian, and you can, in character, start having a conversation with the archmage about theoretical magic... but the other players at the table will probable side-eye you, because you're really not playing in character at all here, and it makes no sense in the world space. The DM might say you can definitely attempt this, but may say that while you feel as though you are speaking with that high level of sophistication, in reality, you're not, and the archmage is doing her best to be polite and wondering how you got in here... and when you roll, you will be rolling with your negative intelligence modifier.

Just so, and exactly the same... you CAN take your barbarian with 6 Charisma and, in character, start shouting and raving with great volume and gusto, flexing your muscles and roaring with enough fervour to make the boldest quake in their boots... But for the same reason that the players side-eye you at the university, they do so here as well, because you are not playing in character, just as you are not when you try to debate the archmage with 6 Int. You CAN attempt this... and it may even work, but when you roll, you will be rolling with your negative charisma modifier, because that is what you are using.

If you are actually using your physical strength to enact the intimidation - that is, actually physically interacting with the target to demonstrate that your strength is to be feared, then you could certainly have the grounds to roll with strength... but this ability does not do that. This ability - Intimidating Presence - is quite literally using your menacing presence to intimidate a foe; it is pure Charisma, and asking to change it to strength, because-I'm-good-with-strength-so-can-I-please, is just metagame. If you want to be good at frightening people, don't dump your Charisma... and ideally... play your characters to something at least moderately in line with the scores you gave them.

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It might be worth bearing in mind - Berserker has the moderately unique ability to get that bonus action attack without needing to take the attack action. very few classes or perks have the ability to do that, at all. Frenzy berserker, however, can absolutely use their action for other things, and still take an attack every round with that bonus action... one example of which is using your intimidating presence to keep something feared while you continually harry and hack at it.