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Thanks ^.^ I appreciate the positive words! Discussion about paladins and such in spoilers, since it's tangential to the stream synopsis. It's tagged hard deception, but really it's a truthful mislead that serves the good of all. It is true that my MC will take care of Lae'zel; under MC leadership she won't harm innocents and MC has a lot of reason to think Lae'zel has a path to the cure, therefore saving the life of self (legitimate value). The dupe also saves the lives of the Tieflings who have an understandable but ignorant reason to kill Lae'zel. Allowing them to do so would in itself be supporting the lie that all Githyanki are evil.
You are still deceiving them; you are deliberately leading and allowing them to believe something about the situation, while your intention is otherwise, and you do this deliberately - it's deception, through and through. Arguably, asisting Lae'zel is not a good act - I say arguably because it's not black and white, and she's not a good person.
"But I didn't technically tell a lie" is wheedling, and it's the fall back of an already dishonest character - because what matters is that you were deceiving them, and trying to talk your way out of the simple fact that you did so, on a technicality, is, itself, lacking in integrity. The skill that we roll isn't "Lying", it's "Deception", and one can most certainly deceive without lying.
[quote]Long story short. Paladins in good standing don't lie, but they don't have correct misunderstanding, particularly to would-be killers. This is simply not true. Most paladin oaths have nothing whatsoever to do with lying or deceiving - if you're operating on the single archetypal knight-in-shining-armour-and-probably-pseudo-christian-value-holding idea of a paladin, that's fine, but that's one possibility of paladin, and one alone, and it's not the baseline or an essential part of any paladin or oath. what matters for a paladin is having an oathsworn principle that they truly believe in and hold important in their personal dedication, and in staying true to that; degrees of honesty and integrity outside of that dedication is free to be as wild and variable as there are mortal lives in the multi-verse.
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Thank you for the summary of the PfH. I watched the video myself but its good to see your opinion of it. Regarding oaths and breaking them I think the point in this scene is not if you kill someone to save another one or the other way round. Its about saying something and then doing the opposite. First you select to help the tieflings against Leazel, then you select to help her against the tieflings. So you betrayed the tieflings, thats what breaks the oath. If this is done consistently (which I doubt) then it can lead to idiotic results: - You can do whatever you want (kill, steal, and so on) as long as you said you intend to do it or at least you didn´t say that you don´t intend to do it.
You can even betray someone if you do it right. You say to person A that you intend to betray person B. Then you betray person B but have never promised person B to do something for him, so you never lied to person B because you never promised him anything. You kept your promise to person A, so everything is fine.
- You can become an oathbreaker by doing good things.
Lets see what happens when you tell the goblins to help them fight the druids, but then you sabotage them and turn against them at the gate.
Fighting the goblins to defend the druids is good. Weakening the goblins, divide them and bring them to a position where you fight them together with others could be called clever.
But you betrayed the goblins by first saying something and then doing something else, so you are an oathbreaker.
If you want to be a good paladin you must be lawful stupid. I have not played patch 9 so far, these are just some thought.
 Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already 
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Minthara's class was changed to Paladin in the patch notes. It looks like there's a good chance that she might end up being our paladin companion, now that we know non-origin party members are going to be a thing. If that's the case, then I'd suspect that she'd already be an oathbreaker, since the other two subclasses are distinctly 'good' in flavor. So then yet another non-good companion?
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Minthara's class was changed to Paladin in the patch notes. It looks like there's a good chance that she might end up being our paladin companion, now that we know non-origin party members are going to be a thing. If that's the case, then I'd suspect that she'd already be an oathbreaker, since the other two subclasses are distinctly 'good' in flavor. So then yet another non-good companion? If Minthara is a companion for the evil path, then Halsin will also be a companion for the good path!  🐻🐻🐻
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So then yet another non-good companion? I don't think the math really shows that imbalance. Remember, we are getting Karlach, Jaheria, and Minsc as well. And the latter two have been explicitly called out as exclusively good companions in the stream. Evil Companions: Asterion Lae'zel Minthara Shadowheart(?) Non-evil Companions: Wyll Gale Minsc Jaheria Karlach Shadowheart(?) Even if you count shadowheart exclusively as an evil companion (and I'm more inclined to count her as good since she has such a heavily telegraphed redemption arc and siding with the goblins seems to lock you out of her as a romance option) then the balance is still very close, with a slight imbalance *away* from evil companions. If Minthara is a companion for the evil path, then Halsin will also be a companion for the good path! 🐻🐻🐻 Unfortunately for the Halsin lovers out there, I don't think that is the case, since Jaheria is a druid, and we haven't gotten any indication we will have multiple companions of the same class yet.
Last edited by Leucrotta; 16/12/22 03:43 PM.
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So then yet another non-good companion? I don't think the math really shows that imbalance. Remember, we are getting Karlach, Jaheria, and Minsc as well. And the latter two have been explicitly called out as exclusively good companions in the stream. Evil Companions: Asterion Lae'zel Minthara Shadowheart(?) Non-evil Companions: Wyll Gale Minsc Jaheria Karlach Shadowheart(?) Even if you count shadowheart exclusively as an evil companion (and I'm more inclined to count her as good since she has such a heavily telegraphed redemption arc and siding with the goblins seems to lock you out of her as a romance option) then the balance is still very close, with a slight imbalance *away* from evil companions. If Minthara is a companion for the evil path, then Halsin will also be a companion for the good path! 🐻🐻🐻 Unfortunately for the Halsin lovers out there, I don't think that is the case, since Jaheria is a druid, and we haven't gotten any indication we will have multiple companions of the same class yet. Can you show me the source of your "math" that says "Astarion == evil", etc? Because 5e doesn't have strict alignment anymore.
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So then yet another non-good companion? I don't think the math really shows that imbalance. Remember, we are getting Karlach, Jaheria, and Minsc as well. And the latter two have been explicitly called out as exclusively good companions in the stream. Evil Companions: Asterion Lae'zel Minthara Shadowheart(?) Non-evil Companions: Wyll Gale Minsc Jaheria Karlach Shadowheart(?) Even if you count shadowheart exclusively as an evil companion (and I'm more inclined to count her as good since she has such a heavily telegraphed redemption arc and siding with the goblins seems to lock you out of her as a romance option) then the balance is still very close, with a slight imbalance *away* from evil companions. If Minthara is a companion for the evil path, then Halsin will also be a companion for the good path! 🐻🐻🐻 Unfortunately for the Halsin lovers out there, I don't think that is the case, since Jaheria is a druid, and we haven't gotten any indication we will have multiple companions of the same class yet. But that's not a fair breakdown at all. You are equating being "not evil" with being "good". There are three categories: good, evil, and neither good nor evil. For me, the good path equals good companions. And right now that means only Minsc. If you have definitive evidence Jaheira's alignment has been changed to good, I'd love to see that. And Karlach and Halsin I'm sorry but I cannot count because given Larian's track record thus far of NOT being adequately forthcoming with information about the game, I have zero reason to believe or expect we will have anything more than 7-8 total companions in the end.
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Can you show me the source of your "math" that says "Astarion == evil", etc? Because 5e doesn't have strict alignment anymore. I don't think you can honestly appraise Astarion and not have it be clear that he falls into the evil companion camp. He's petty, cruel, mean-spirited, sadistic. Is he also sympathetic? I think so. Is it going to be possible that he'll have the option of redemption? I think that as well. But as it stands, if left to his own devices he's gonna be evil. He's the most straight-forwardly evil companion we have in terms of behaviour. I suspect a lot of players who don't know about Shar would assume Shadowheart was pretty much good. And Karlach and Halsin I'm sorry but I cannot count because given Larian's track record thus far of NOT being adequately forthcoming with information about the game, I have zero reason to believe or expect we will have anything more than 7-8 total companions in the end. I am also going to point out that I don't believe there has even been a hint that Halsin is going to be a companion (I honestly wouldn't want him to be either, he's an Archdruid, that sounds like someone far above us in terms of level, he makes sense as a mentor and guide, not someone equal to us) it's just a thing people want. Karlach at least has datamined stuff and a mention in the related MtG set, whatever that's worth.
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Hey Niara, thanks for the synopsis of the pfh. I was one of the 20 fans in the video who was shown. It sure was fun to see the fan compilation video Larian came up with! I'm a big BG fan and looking forward to the full release of this game. Shout out to you for the amazing synopses/feedback, Larian Studios for the potential GOAT rpg, and everyone else in the community who gives feedback in an effort to help Larian make the best game possible!
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Hey Niara, thanks for the synopsis of the pfh. I was one of the 20 fans in the video who was shown. It sure was fun to see the fan compilation video Larian came up with! I'm a big BG fan and looking forward to the full release of this game. Shout out to you for the amazing synopses/feedback, Larian Studios for the potential GOAT rpg, and everyone else in the community who gives feedback in an effort to help Larian make the best game possible! Congrats!😊
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I am also going to point out that I don't believe there has even been a hint that Halsin is going to be a companion (I honestly wouldn't want him to be either, he's an Archdruid, that sounds like someone far above us in terms of level, he makes sense as a mentor and guide, not someone equal to us) it's just a thing people want. Karlach at least has datamined stuff and a mention in the related MtG set, whatever that's worth. Agreed. And this also brings up the general issue I have with NPCs like Halsin and even Jaheira being brought in as party companions: how does one justify their being at roughly the same level as the PC? The same even for Minsc, though at least there I can see some hand-waving that can be done to (lamely) justify it.
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I am also going to point out that I don't believe there has even been a hint that Halsin is going to be a companion (I honestly wouldn't want him to be either, he's an Archdruid, that sounds like someone far above us in terms of level, he makes sense as a mentor and guide, not someone equal to us) it's just a thing people want. Karlach at least has datamined stuff and a mention in the related MtG set, whatever that's worth. Agreed. And this also brings up the general issue I have with NPCs like Halsin and even Jaheira being brought in as party companions: how does one justify their being at roughly the same level as the PC? The same even for Minsc, though at least there I can see some hand-waving that can be done to (lamely) justify it. Minsc lost his memories in a comic and he's slowly regaining it. I think WoTC is trying to keep him at level with the modules he participate in. He's officially around level 6 right now I believe. Jaheira is grandma age for an Half-Elf and should probably retire from adventuring...
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I know it seems like I'm being un-pleasable, but when I was hoping for 'good' companions, I wasn't thinking companions from the older games, was sort of hoping for someone new. It feels so weird starting at level 1 and having Minsc and Jaheira being companions on the same level. these are legendary characters in the Baldur's Gate universe and they're going to be slumming around with a bunch of level 1s? It's just weird.
Also, even if we don't get them at level 1, and it's not until much later in act 2 or something that we do meet them, that's a huge chunk of the game without any 'good' companions. Most people have established who they want their party to be by the first 10 hours (imo at least).
Last edited by Boblawblah; 16/12/22 06:43 PM.
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I know it seems like I'm being un-pleasable, but when I was hoping for 'good' companions, I wasn't thinking companions from the older games, was sort of hoping for someone new. It feels so weird starting at level 1 and having Minsc and Jaheira being companions on the same level. these are legendary characters in the Baldur's Gate universe and they're going to be slumming around with a bunch of level 1s? It's just weird.
Also, even if we don't get them at level 1, and it's not until much later in act 2 or something that we do meet them, that's a huge chunk of the game without any 'good' companions. Most people have established who they want their party to be by the first 10 hours (imo at least). Yup, agree with all of this. Have said as much myself. Even if eventually we get a full good-aligned party, at the very least we will have to go through a pretty big chunk of the game initially carrying evil companions with us before we're given a couple of old retreads almost like being thrown a bone. And for me, that's just not fair. Larian has made it so someone who wants to play with an evil party gets to do so. Ditto for someone who doesn't care about alignment one way or the other. The only people who don't get their thing are people like you and me. Seems to me that Larian is going out of its way to screw over anyone who wants to play "good" in their game.
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