Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Shove/push ruin the game and I'm angry !

Here is another complain about shove. Seriously what are you waiting for to turn it into a full action ? I really hope you will because it can really RUIN the game.

Short clip to introduce this :



Seriously it is NOT fun !
Sure I could smile, laugh a lot, reload and hope that my characters will resist next time ! But it does not make me laugh AT ALL. It is really infuriating and this is just ONE combat (probably the worst of all).
The only possibility Larian gives us in this combat is LUCK and luck being the only reason for a victory/defeat in a tactical turn based game just SUCK.


20 goblins can just dash + shove = Insta KILL.
Minotaurs can just jump + push = Insta KILL.
Dror Razglin can just scream + push = Insta KILL.
Druergar can just shoot an arrow + push = Insta KILL.
Hooked horror can just jump + push = Insta KILL.
Bulette can jump + push = Insta KILL.
and so on, and so on, and so on. Insta KILL is everywhere.

We can even Insta KILL the Matriarch... Seriously it is so lame !

There are a lot too many possibilities to push and shove in the game and despite your """"efforts"""" to balance it, in a game with dices some players will always be frustrated like I am if you don't balance these mechanics better !

On top of that it really SUCK for melee characters ! Shove to disengage.
It SUCK for the sleep spells and sleeping potions ! Shove to wake characters up.

I don't even understand that you still didn't realize how stupid the mechanic currently is.
Sorry to write like this but I'm really annoyed !

Many players have reported EVERYWHERE (reddit, steam, here, other forums) that shove is broken since 2 years and you mostly have done nothing to solve this issue. That's a shame.

I like being able to shove and I like having to care about my position. But that's NOT what BG3 is currently offering in MANY situations.. and probably ALL situations if you haven't played the game for HOURS previsouly (metagaming).
Shove/push is just BROKEN.

It is completely :
- overpowered which may make the game a lot too easy
- it may make the game frustrating as hell
- it make some skills/spells mostly useless (sleep, sleeping potion, help,...)
- and some valuable tactics for melee characters are just completely useless (AOO, threatened ennemies,...) .

Make shove a full action for the sake of this game ! It could not be worse as it currently is !

Absolutely agree - it should be a full action and the distance needs to be further reduced (to max of 5 foot, in the right conditions)

I started talking to Nere and when I made him angry and combat started, I lost initiative badly (thank you RNG) and 2 of my party members where shoved into lava, before they could act, and died. Really....and we weren't standing right next to the lava either. The third was shot with some arrow 'pushing' attack and also ended up in the lava - all in round one ;-)

Sure, you can work around it, but the AI simply won't avoid it - it's too convenient.

Your mistake is to take Larian style combat seriously. It's supposed to be a meme. Balancing stuff makes it harder for streamers to entertain with cheap laughs and attract a larger audience.


Many things implemented by Larian is capable of breaking the game. For instance a Tiefling Thief using Flame Blade and Circlet of Fire. That's 9d6 off-hand damage probably every turn from low levels. It's fun yo! That is...unless you get shoved to death before you get a chance to start swinging of course!

Seriously though, how anti-climatic isn't that BG3 ship combat compared to the one in DOS2.

I am not so emotional about it, but I won't be very upset if it becomes an action. But! In that case - throw action becomes far superior, because it would do the same thing as shove but better (for an action). So what do you think about these alternative solutions:

1. Make shove an action but implement it properly with the prone effect. That way a successful shove results in advantage for your companions as well and can compete with throw.

2. Keep shove as a BA but halve, or even quarter the distance of the push - so that it can be a "chance to disengage" on a BA 1v1 for non-rogue classes.

Yeah with enemies that are primed to shove it seems pretty silly.

Also, can feather fall not proc on a fall? It seems like it should, since in the ttrpg it's a reaction. And it's also silly how in that video, falling into water is instant-death, as if no one in the party can swim.

Honestly, I think shoving should just be removed. That would be the easiest solution.

I'd prefer a properly implemented shove - as in the actual 5E shove - so no 1.... I like the idea of being prone, as you say this is a useful condition to inflict on an opponent.

Ah, the boat ride. Classic!

Even funnier if you learn the new tadpole power from Omeluum's tampering. Just going in-between them, popping it off and watching everyone fly. Or get unlucky and get shoved off instead. I also had the unpleasant experience of Nere shoving me into lava hahah! This whole shove stuff made me create this in response.

But yeah it's an extreme problem in certain cases, especially because of how meaningless it is with such an important combat outcome. The boat ride, Nere's lava pit and Matriarch are the worst scenarios and I'm more afraid of where I'm standing in those battles than the enemies themselves. The boat ride itself gives me PTSD though ^^

+1 to making shove a full action. I even hate jump, but that's a separate topic.

Im agree with you. You could end this fight with one action (Throw illithid orb in middle of them and they will be all grab in water). But its not fun to end a fight like that. In this EA patch9 , except this fight , enemie dont shove a lot like before , but im ok with the fact , shove is too OP.

- Shove should be an action. And dont push more than 5ft (like the rules of player handbook).

As always, seconded and agreed.

Shove as action; option to push to prone, or push 5ft. Works fine and is a tactical choice that is worth taking sometimes and not others, in certain other 5e-based video games.

You should NOT be able to disengage as a BA.
It is extremely painfull when you are playing melee characters because their most basic utility is to ENGAGE (to threathen, to force AOO, to force using melee attacks, to protect your weaker characters,...).

It's not like if the game does not already offer solutions to "disengage" :
- as a bonus action (misty step, amulet of misty step, rogues cunning action, potion of invisibility,...)
- for free (items that allow you to avoid AOO,...)
- and/or to attack even if you disengage as a full action (sorcerer quickened spell,...).



I disagree. I've been shoved A LOT. Probably as much as I have been in patch 8.
Of course metagaming is doing his job so I haven't been pushed in holes a lot... But they shove A LOT to disengage and to wake their allies up.

I personally think shove should just make a target trip and go prone with like 1-2m distance. Seeing characters in full metal plate being sent flying is comical, so I think such physics should rather remain for spells and abilities with power. Such as Lae'zel's Pushing Attack or some spells such as Thunderwave.

But definitely not as a cheap and brainless one click button that can one shot any enemy just because of gravity.

I honestly I feel that with multi attack shove is better left of as bonus action. Being shoved 1-3 times per turn by one character would only make things worse. With how powerful it is I believe a balance would call for making it full action and not part of a multiattack - I do think that its power potential is on par with spells.

In current patch I didn’t find shove distance too bad (has something changed) but the way it is implemented makes it very powerful depending on terrain (slopes can greatly increase push’s distance). I am kinda done hoping for the issue to be addressed at this point.

I agree - there are limited use skill and spells that could fill the spot without having to overtune the basic push. Larian could also add feat that would extend push distance 2x or 3x giving player who choose it a way to getting it back. They could design an encounter with enemies with powerful pushes for a one time gag.

As it is push works well for some encounter, but dominates the others.

I'm not sure I agree - once you are shoved you have been moved away from the shover - so the shoving character would have to move to shove you again, possibly invoking AoO. I assume if this was an issue, then it would have been highlighted in 5E rules already? You also have to make an opposed roll for every shove attempt (it they implementy it as per 5E, not sure what they do tbh) - you may lose, and now you have sacrificed a melee attack. Of course, if you are standing near a precipice, it maybe worth trying this 1-3 times. But I could live with that - makes sense to me at least.

What I don't like is the low cost and the ballistic nature - I was def more than 5 ft away from the lava when my 2 charcaters were shoved into it.

+1 for shove being an action. In my case, I find it annoying how it weakens Sleep.

And the examples given by OP show how it's pretty unbalanced.

Furthermore, I find that this tactic of shoving is way overused by the NPCs. It would be nice if it didn't trigger that often.

I don't like the sleep argument, sleep is already one if not the most powerful CC spell in the game. An AoE loss of action for multiple enemies without a skill check, that guarantees a crit, all that packed in a level 1 spell is already silly enough.

Sleep is working correctly - and given how dangerous (at low level only), you should happily spend an action to wake your team mate(s) - did this in Solasta all the time. In any case, that is just one example - if sleep is the issue, they can create some bonus action 'noise maker' or something to waken a party, rather than create an OP bonus action shove, which the AI uses at every oppurtunity. As it is, sleep is effectively useless if you are outnumbered, since it costs 1 BA to counter it and if you have many enemies - I was always outnumbered - they can afford spend that.

I'm mean, given the fixed hit points condition of the spell, you get to put one or two goblins to sleep (and not much other NPCs)...Not that OP. And by the time it gets back to my turn, they've been woken up by an bonus action (not action) of another hostile NPC...Which is over nerfed, in my opinion.
Also, just because a spell is very effective in certain situation, doesn't mean OP.

+1

That is the thing, sleep is effective in all situations. It is a death sentence. No save, no chance to resist, you just die. But we are moving goalpost here, I generally agree that shove should be an action.

I was pacified for nearly a week after the addition of reactions, and they did a fine job at that. However, though slowly, I began to think of Shove as a bonus action, and became angry again.

Shove ruins combat for me too.

The biggest problem is the ridiculous distance that makes it impossible to even plan against, but the Bonus Action part is a close second.

These 20ft. yeets are absurd and it seems like the joke never gets old at Larian. They make the combat trivially easy and impossibly hard at the same time, depending on who gets to push first and succeed.

The Bonus Action part just means it will get used much more than it would otherwise because it's literally a "bonus". It also makes all kinds of stupid scenarios possible where an enemy can Dash all the way across the battlefield, climb a 30m high ladder and push your carefully placed Wizard or archer to their death on the same turn, before anyone can react or try to stop them.

I would also be very careful with giving warrior classes or enemies access to Misty Step or teleport abilities for that same reason.

Enough with the slapstick meme combat already. It's time to play D&D now.

Shove should absolutely not be a bonus action. It should be usable in place of a weapon attack, like in the tabletop rules. And it should follow the tabletop rules for how far you can shove something, which is usually 5 feet or to knock them prone.

The community can help fix Throw after Shove if Larian are unable to.

Clearly it needs a grapple check to allow throwing in the first place.

D&D isn't children's sandbox play where stuff just happens when the player says so. Rules are in place. Larian seem to forget this, and Saving Throws to mitigate damage.

Clear announcement!

But throwing opponents depends on your strength, so it often has a short range. So it's not quite as dramatic as pushing, I think.

The thing is - throw is guaranteed and deals damage. This is what makes it superior I think.

Shove should be 5 feet - this would allow actual tactical positioning, where you risk getting close to ledges or you play it safer possibly at the cost of having a less effective turns.
Shove should also be able to Shove Prone.
Shove should cost an (attack-equivalent) action - this would fix the ~free disengage that characters/enemies get. Since there are very few ways to hold aggro in 5e as melee characters, allowing enemies to run away without provoking AoOs is too punishing and makes playing a melee character feel terrible.
- The above would allow characters with multiple attacks to shove multiple times, but this would be fine as, with the distance of 5 feet, 2 successful shoves would still be less distance than the current shove.

Instant-death pits should be less frequent. There are way too many fights that can trivially be ended by shoving the boss/enemies down a hole (boat, Spider Matriarch, Minthara, Hag, Nere into Lava, etc). The occasional instant-death area/pit is fine, but BG3 is way over-relying on it. Especially when enemies can and will push your player characters into those areas.

Does Throw still automatically succeed? Even if you fail the attack roll, the picked up character is still thrown; they just don't hit whoever you throw them at? If so, this is obviously a terrible implementation and should be fixed.
- It should be a grapple check to pick someone up
- Then an attack roll to throw them
- Then the throwee and the target get Dex STs to mitigate damage.

Push in 5e has much shorter distance, and therefore generally doesn't result in instant death. In scenarios like barge combat I wouldnt want to have to succeed in 3 saves per enemy or die.

I am all for making shove more like 5e, but as it is now I feel that making it full action without further changes might actually make it worse.

At least creatures that don't have more actions per turn would probably not do it at all. At worst they would do it once exactly like now.
Shove should just not be available more than once / turn on top of being a full action.

Technically, enemy monsters that have Multiattack cannot use those attacks for multiple shoves. Monster stat blocks say exactly what the monster can do, no more, and Multiattack doesn't say that these attacks can be replaced with shove. E.g., a Brown Bear specifically makes one bite and one claw attack with it's Multiattack Action.

The rules for Shove state that "Using the Attack Action, you can make a Special melee Attack to shove a creature...if you're able to make multiple Attacks with the Attack Action, this attack replaces one of them." An enemy Fighter with Extra Attack or Action Surge could shove multiple times, but a Brown Bear with Mutltiattack could not.

Now, do I expect Larian to actually follow this rule if they change shove to being an attack-equivalent action? No. But the correct implementation of shove does, per 5e RAW, prevent most monstrous/beastial enemies from shoving multiple times per turn.

I would agree with the general sentiment that shove should be a full action instead of just a bonus action. In lieu of that I wouldn't mind a spell or ability that makes it so shoving doesn't move your characters. Like if a wizard casts enlarge on a party member then most enemies (especially smaller ones) shouldn't be able to shove them. Maybe also let warriors take a brace position that cuts movement but reduces distance they can be shoved.

Either way they should do something. Don't get me wrong, I love a good map with environmental hazards, but at present it feels like the only way to play around those hazards is to pray for a good initiative roll. Having instant kill hazards is more annoying really that fun when luck is currently the only strategy to beat them.

Also speaking of hazards like lava. I also wish there was a way to get the body of anyone who got knocked into lava and died out of the lava to revive them. Obviously if you res them in the lava they die immediately. To get someone out you have to use rally to put temp HP on them. Have a healing potion or spell immediately ready, and jump out super fast on revival. An incredibly annoying and tedious process because of map hazards that can't be avoided.

I also got insta-killed in the raft fight by being pushed into the water before I could get a turn. It is triggering. Makes you quit and not want to experience that stupidity again.

Sure I have 9 unused Revivify scrolls but I hate using those as well. If someone falls into a bottomless pit or river, or is utterly incinerated in a sea of lava, why is their body conveniently at camp? Is this an immersive RPG, or some arcade game where you have X lives?

Also, falling into water being insta-death is dumb, assuming all adventurers can swim.

Seems like Larian really likes this version of shove, it has been the subject of many threads on many forums since day 1. So i'm not going to hope any longer, i'm just going to put my trust in the modding community to fix this one.

Except Shadowheart apparently. She should be the only party member who drowns.

OMG 😂 We'll put night orchids, on her grave don't worry!

+1 to shove as an action that can be used instead of an attack, choice to shove prone or 5ft

Regarding the argument that shove as action would make throw less useful:
I think it is almost impossible to throw an unwilling creature aka enemy. The just need to grab your arm (or another part of you) and you cannot throw them.
The closest thing I can think of is a wrestling move where you lift the enemy up and smash it on the ground. This is more a combat meneuver that causes damage+prone than a throw.
So I would say:
- Shove = action to move an enemy (5ft of prone)
- Throw = action to move an object

Shove seems to be a Larian PR gimmick since day one of EA.
The first thing they really want to show off in this games combat gameplay is of course, shove.
It will probably never change. Its the BG3 sacred golden goose egg.

Its a fun gimmick in the players toolbox. Feels like a cheat code. Not so fun when all enemies uses it.
I have a feeling that Larian is going out of their way to have an achievement that reads:

"beat the game only using the shove ability".

THAT is a problem. It forces areas/world to be designed to make it so every combat is beatable with just shove.
My first mod for the game will probably be shove related. But thats a bandaid on a poorly though out ability that affects the whole game. "Editing" shove won't change the way the world is designed around it.

Changing Shove to an action and making it a spell container where you can choose between shoving 5ft or shove to prone can be done easily by mods.

In fact, there are already mods out there that do that. I dabbled a little bit in modding the game (and made a mod only for me, with such changes), stuff like changing the cost or effect of a spell or ability is very, very easy.

So Larian could change it anytime and it would cost one of their developers only like 5 minutes of working time - that they have not done it yet, means they like how shove plays out, IMO.

I think it is used to balance the weakness of the power system in video games. (The weight is based on the fact that it can be sent back to the camp, basically there is no advantage.)

What was reinforced in the previous version was the charm attribute, which has an advantage in trading.

So push has its necessity. It's actually quite interesting.

In fact, we need to pursue realism in the world of magic, including why gravity can jump so high, but can’t push it so far? In physics, the result should be the same for a human body of the same weight.

The ninth edition, changing and weakening the invisible pusher is sure to succeed. Whether to further weaken it, it is necessary to explore the balance of the game mechanism.

1. The success rate of pushing people depends on the strength of the force, and the damage will be fatal in addition to certain terrains, but players who are theoretically skilled in these terrains should be able to make a slight assessment.

2. The real damage depends on the amount of damage one's own constitution (health value) can bear. There is also a thing to contend with called "Falling Feather Spell", which can be cast from the shoes of the spell tower in the underground dark world, or the spell scroll.
Assuming that the current terrain is dangerous, is it possible for players to accept the casting of Blessing during or before the battle, but not the casting of "Featherfall"? What is the reason for this?

3. Another more advanced technique is the battle team formation. Sticking together can resist this risk, but it will increase the risk of AOE.

4. However, if the player does not intend to cast the falling feather spell and maintain a good team formation, the weight-bearing benefits of personal strength will come! You can carry a 10-weight box and place it next to your character for protection during battle. You can also cast some spells that hinder the enemy's action on the enemy's attack route in advance, or hide yourself.

Returning to the topic of balance improvement, I personally have the experience of being pushed by the enemy after teleportation spells...

suggestion:
I think it's good to be related to the health value, and the distance that the full health value is pushed is half of the current distance.

Less than 80%~30% is the same as the current distance.

If it is lower than 30%, give 1.3 times the bonus of the current version. (To satisfy the fun of the game, you can choose whether to push the enemy to death)

It can protect the exaggerated one-push kill, increase the fun of the game, and encourage players to take proper rest to maintain high blood volume.

I would be fine with losing out on shoving multiple times per turn as a martial to change it to a full action, or even removing the ability entirely, and nerfing the distance to 5ft according to tabletop rules. Anything, ANYTHING, to keep enemies from spamming bonus action shove to try to instant kill the player, which is seriously problematic in some fights.

A 5th level Fighter getting to Shove twice per turn is not a problem as long as the distance is cut down to 5ft (from 20ft+ currently). They would have to trade damage for those shoves which would make it a tactical choice instead of an OP no brainer gimmick to be used every turn as a bonus.

An attack action Shove would also compete with Pushing Attack and every other form of action that pushes, instead of the player getting to do both.

I agree it wouldn't be a problem, but i think that as things are now, simply making shove an action is preferable. Anything to be rid of the current state of affairs. I'd even prefer not having shove at all to this widespread instant death nonsense

Yeah what makes it so bad in bg3 compared to a dnd session - there is no DM you can bargain with for your character's survival. During the boat fight you can't ask for a reaction usage to cling onto the fishing net or something, waiting for some help from your allies. You just straight up fall into the abyss and die. Meh.

When you simply edit the files to make shove an action rather than a bonus action : you cannot use shove twice with multi attack.
The game just doesn't allow it.

EDIT : But it's not as simple as I thought with extra attacks. You can attack twice but you can't attack once and shove once OR you can shove... but you loose your extra attack. Damn.
Is there a skill, spell or anything else you have in mind that is locked to "once per turn" ?

EDIT 2 : I have found a mod that limits jump to 1 per turn in combat. So I guess it could be doable for shove too... I'd have to try this.

Yes, current multi-attack implementation seems a bit confused. It seems from my testing that multi attack triggers on attacks with main weapons only (including basic attack and weapon skills) - as a second attack you can use other martial skills, like throw, however starting with throw won’t grant you an extra attack. I imagine something like that would happen with full-action push.

Yes I've noticed that too with throwing weapons.
I've finally found how to be able to shove then attack... It took a long time to me but really, it takes 3 seconds when you know where to look at. BUT if I attack first I still can't use shove as an extra attack^^ Confused, as you said... But I guess it is extremely easy to do for players a bit more used to this than myself.

I agree to a certain extent but having said that I’m 447 hours in early access and I’ve only been Insta killed maybe 4-5 times & now in patch 9 at least the bodies are retrievable where before it was a bit of a pain.
I think it needs some balancing and hopefully it will get looked at - but you gotta admit potion of giant strength plus shove can be fun 🤩

It's still something you'll be able to do even if it's balanced so that no player can be killed instantly by pushing 30 times in act 1.

Yesi it’s more a novelty - I wonder if a girdle is in the game that would create mayhem….

I agree Maximuuus

I have no problem with it being a Bonus Action but it absolutely needs severe limits on its distance. Having Shove as a Bonus Action for a chance at a disengage is fine and doesn't take away from Disengage as an Action that is guaranteed. Having Shove as a Bonus Action for a chance to wake a sleeping ally is fine and doesn't take away from Help as an Action that is guaranteed. Having Shove as a Bonus Action that gives a chance to push an enemy off a ledge they are right next to is fine and doesn't take away from Throw as an Action that is guaranteed.

These are semantic "problems". The real problem behind almost every single one of these posts is extreme frustration at a fight completely turning around on a trivial mechanic that takes a character from 100% to 0% with one roll. That should simply never happen; and not for any "this is DnD and there are supposed to be rules" reason, but because it introduces a "quit moment" into an otherwise excellent game whose success revolves around its ability to entertain. The fact that you can go back and reload and try again isn't the point. The point is that these moments make you NOT WANT TO TRY AGAIN.

And anything that provokes negative emotion that strong that is not extremely limited in scope is terrible design. Period.

Well, I don't know... If, as intended, there was the "prone" effect with "Shove", then I don't find the mere adjustment of the distance sufficient. Then you would almost always use Shove to prone (for crits) + Attack Action, and to me that would be the same thing in green, as it is currently with Attack Action and Shove to death from cliff, lava, or whatever. It should be an action.

I'm going to channel another user for a moment here.Is it fine though, and doesn't it take away from Disengage? Melee characters already suffer from being unable to hold aggro in 5e. Allowing easy disengage (effectively free if one doesn't have another bonus action to use) devalues tanky martial characters even more. Bonus Action Shove allows characters to both disengage and attack/cast spell in the same turn.

Is shove not a 100% chance to wake a sleeping ally?

Throw shouldn't be guaranteed. That'd be way overpowered even without the common instant-death pits in BG3. If you have to make a roll to even hit an enemy with your sword/fists/magic, why shouldn't you have to make one (or more) rolls to physically pick them up and toss them?? Shove being better than Throw isn't saying much...

Agreed, to the extent that this is a problem (it's not the only/real problem imo). Incredibly strong abilities without large costs (e.g., a high level spell slot or a very expensive consumable) are antithetical to tactical combat.

Throwing an oppnent is not covered in the PHB 5e. (or i did not find it). Even the "frenzied throw" of the Berserker is a larian thing.

But Grappling is. To grab an opponent you do an opposing STR check (+modifiers). If you succeed you can drag them around. I am fully fine with beeing able to throw them, but the grapple check should still be needed.

I can't believe they still haven't rectified shove. It's powerful and should be a full action or taking the place of an attack on a pc with extra attack.

Has there been any update around it from Larian?

Only if you count two years of silence on that matter as quite clear message that they dont intend to change it.

Shove is broken primarily because of this ^ and that it's a Bonus Action, not to mention the ludicrous distance a shove shoves. Others here have explained why but essentially it nerfs melee characters, and one of the most useful low level spells (Sleep). People have been complaining about this since the beginning of EA but because Larian doesn't give a rat's ass about D&D RAW they probably won't fix it. They absolutely should fix this but they are that DM that overuses the "Rule of Cool" to the point it's no longer cool but annoying.

I enjoy DoS2 and I really like it's more humorous and lighthearted style of rules but D&D has a different flavor because it's RAW is more ridged and grounded, and it's been that way since it's beginnings. It's what makes D&D, well... D&D and the Larian team should respect that. However, like most people who are adapting an IP they didn't create they have little respect for what came before and feel they can do it better, even though no one asked them to. We can see it all over BG3; the Shoves, the jumps, the potions as AOE bombs, and there's probably more things I haven't encountered yet that just show Larian is more interested in making DoS3 than BG3. Will I still enjoy the game? Well so far it's fine and I'll adapt but I'd rather have BG3 be a D&D game with D&D rules and sensibilities and have all this other stuff saved for a DoS3 game I can play another time.

I don't use shove myself, and none of my experienced players do either. I agree it should be an action.

having said that, with this fight you want to use the Arrows of Roaring Thunder

Put one right in the center of that boat and watch them go flying.

Also Thunderwave is pretty great if you BA Misty Step right on top of them.

If they close the distance with you pop an Invisibility potion.

But yeah, shove also should be a full action - just like Hide for everyone but Rogue.

I use it when it's appropriate but the real issue is how the opponents use it that makes combat annoying.

Can't believe I somehow almost missed another thread and another chance to shit on how bad the current implementation of SHOVE is.
Because, yeah, it's shit.

No, I don't want to.
If a combat is so easy to win, I'd rather like them to remove it entirely so I don't waste my time.

Not to defend it but there is a trade off in this particular fight for just spamming shove, you miss out on everyone’s loot. If they let us destroy plot items this way it might actually be an interesting little handicap.

The worst aspect of shove for me is that seeing memes and clips of bosses like Ragzlin being cheese-shoved into a hole, and knowing while playing I could do it myself if I wanted to, lessens the entire game into a something of a joke. I can't take these characters seriously anymore because everything really is just a joke or a meme.

The slapstick style gameplay undermines storytelling. It's like a Monty Python movie suddenly trying to present a serious dramatic scene - it just won't have any impact. This is part of why I'm criticizing Larian for weak game direction. You can't be everything at once and all over the place with different styles and genres.

i thik we all made a misstake in thinking that larian is allowed to listen to us WotC hates us so they probalt forcing Larian into making bad decisions like push jump and the annoying companions.

What?

I don't think Larian is influenced by Owlcat, probably more in the other direction.

Look, Larian thinks the shove thing is funny. And for new players who have not played D&D that's probably true. For the rest of us I hope there is a toggle for it, otherwise it's getting modded out - probably with a pack that enforces core rules.

I am very late to the party, but I agree, Shove should be an action.

I use it very rarely, only when I think it makes sense, e.g. when the opponent is standing on the brink of a cliff.
(Most times, I don't even try it with my player characters, because my strength 8 Tavs would only manage to make their enemies laugh. And why get your hands dirty when you can cast thunderwave?)

Action would be nice ...
But personaly i dont mind it being Bonus Action.

Cruicial part is range tho ...
That should be adjusted without a debate.

And the game should provide some way for beginners to see danger zones ...
Something like when you turn it on, edges are painted red for the whole reach where you can be one-shoved.
This alone should also help Larian to see how ridiculous it sometimes is.

First bg3 MOD I'll get is :

NO MORE SHOVE.
Game gets instantly more interesting and fun.

Probably the single most impactful change to gameplay. (Problem being, enemies also uses it).

Anyways, Shove should be quite easy to mod edit to whatever people wants it to be. Probably why Larian just doesn't care at this point.

You mean something like this that clearly shows you that you can't stand on half the combats arena ?

Yup.

The reason is simple ...
Main problem people had with Shove (as much as i remember) was that they though they are safe, when they are "so far from the edge" ... but the game thought otherwise.

Such tool would help both new players to better understand danger zone ...
And more importantly Larian so they can easily realize that there is no safe zone in their design.

Perhaps I'm the only one who likes the shove system. I'm not a newcomer to D&D or CRPGs. In fact, it has always been a feature I desired because it made certain abilities that push enemies away more useful. Moreover, from my experience, I have always been the one to use and almost abuse this mechanic rather than being subjected to it. By using shove, thunderwave, pushing attack, etc., it becomes easy to win most encounters. Just position your companions well, avoiding placing them near the edges of cliffs. Defeating the hag by becoming invisible and pushing her off is definitely a cheesy tactic, but it's fun for me at least.

Losing the loot does seem like a good penalty to balance the power of this mechanic, similar to how Disintegrate (Black Blade of Disaster etc) worked in Baldur's Gate 2.

In most situations there's no loot to loose except a crappy weapon or item. And even with some bosses like the Matriarch, you just don't loose anything.
It does not really "balance" anything and it is not a high level spell you'll use wisely : it is a common bonus action.

Just look at the screenshot above for distance. Not sure anyone would consider that the entire red area as being "near the edges of cliffs"... Especially if you consider in game units of measurement.

For trash encounters, you don't necessarily need to throw enemies off cliffs to win. You can simply shorten the duration of the fight, save some resources, and still have fun. However, if you do push Minthara off, you would indeed miss out on a significant loot. It's a trade-off that players need to consider when deciding whether to utilize the shove mechanic in such situations.

As for the distance, I can agree that it could be adjusted, perhaps decreased. However, it is important that the shove mechanic reflects factors such as the strength of your character and the weight of the enemy, which I believe are already taken into consideration.

Athletics affect your resistance to being showed i think, not sure it got implmented but i know it was being discussed, so it is dependent on your strength stat, wich is a good thing...

As alot of people pointed out in this thread, it sohuld be a action and not bonus action... and hopefully we will see this fixed in august !

Athletics affect your chance to shove and your chances not to be shoved.
Acrobatics influence your chances not to be shoved if higher than your Athletic bonuses.

The weight of characters affect both. I agree that what's happening "off screen" is working well.


This may be true, eventually... but it's all about metagaming.

This may be true, eventually... but it's all about metagaming.[/quote]


Let's say it's partly based on that and partly on the player's intuition to understand which is a trash encounter and which is a challenging battle that could have valuable loot.

I wish it was true.

Sadly, my experience say it dont really matter where you stand ... i spend litteraly half of my movement speed (12m? not sure) to stand far from edge in Grymforge-Nere+Duergars batte ... and they still managed to shove me to lava. :-/ Im sory, but that is just not fun.

I mean, even if that was true, shove would still be quite anoying ... since when i spend my precious spellslot to put group of Goblins to sleep, i want them to sleep at least one round ... not litteraly to next turn, when another Goblin wakes them up and is still able to attack me. :-/
But it would be at least little more bareable.

That encounter in Grymforge can be approached in numerous ways, both based on your roleplay and combat tactics. Of course, positioning yourself on the elevated bridges allows for an easy resolution of the encounter. However, I must say that I also enjoy engaging in close combat and letting the enemies use the same tactics against me. It adds an extra layer of excitement and challenge to the battle.

I understand the effect it has on countering sleep. However, it's also true that your precious spell slots are of 1st level. Overall, I still see more pros than cons in this management of the shove mechanic. I could agree with reducing the throwing distance a bit and making shove an action.

Which mean you could agree with most shove complainers. That's what we are asking for since 2 years, nothing more.

Disintegrate, finger of death, Stinking Cloud and other AoE that wouldn't aggro enemies if they were beyind sight, exaploding arrows.

BG1&2 has quite a few rough edges - there is a reason Disintegrate and Finger of Death don't work like they used to. An in my opinion for the better.

Even so, those were high level spells, selling a power that wields a powerful spellcaster - they late progression rewards, and could be used only sparingly. Push, however, is available to anyone with high enough strength and can be used in everyturn, while performing all the other attacks one wants.


@Rag! I think your account was hacked.

I didn't understand what you meant, please explain further. However, it's true that spells like Disintegrate are high-level spells, but it's also true that enemies can use shove. Therefore, I don't see what the problem is. Furthermore, all the game maps are structured with verticality, making it quite likely that you have the ability to throw down your opponents. In practice, though, it's a mechanic that enemies use much less frequently than you can.

Once i had the same idea ...
Sadly, some Duergars are equipped with Arrow of Roaring Thunder.

I must admit it was really an easy and fast resolution ...
Sadly not even close to desired resolution, that would include my party being alive at the end of that encounter. :-/

Dont know what do you mean.
Shove is rare example where i agree with majority around here for quite some time.

Aproximately since first few weeks in EA, when it was pointed out to me that no matter how much you try hard to avoid it, NPCs keep using it against you ... so there is no true way to ACTUALLY avoid it ...

But i must admit, i dont have strong opinion on way of fixing this ...
Either make it action, or drasticaly reduce distance, or make it lot harder roll ... either would help, all of it would be most welcomed.

This describes ^ the major issue, that it cannot be avoided if you find this change to the D&D RAW unfun and annoying. As I've said before I'm fine with Larian's sense of humor and general goofiness in their DoS games and if this was a DoS game, while I would still find all the shoving people 20-30ft annoying, it would fit the DoS setting. D&D is not DoS and while humor is great it should be in the story not the game mechanics which clearly and consistently, over many editions, attempts to be grounded in real world physics so as to highlight magic and class abilities that break that grounding and make them special. If any/all NPCs can casually shove an armored fighter 20-30ft without having to even use an action (which clearly breaks established D&D RAW) it nerfs the special nature of Melee classes and their ability to control the battlefield and protect non-melee classes. The same goes with the other major design choice by Larian: the AOE potion throwing nonsense that gelds special class abilities of Healers essentially giving the special ranged and AOE healing abilities from Clerics to everyone. If every class is special at everything then no class is special at anything.

There is an unseemly level of hubris at Larian that they believe that it's okay to put their personal spin, one that changes the very nature of D&D combat, on an established IP just because they think it's "kewl". Save those things for your own IPs.

Rag you are aware that you can rob these arrows from that particular NPCs? Stolen items are then no longer used by the NPCs. This is not ideal for every encounter, but only as long as the NPCs are still neutral. But here it should work.

Metagaming to avoid a bad mechanic... Interresting.
Not working on the boat though.

Well, its not necesarily metagaming ...
Technicaly even when you enter the room for the first time, you can steal their equipment ... but i agree it dont exactly feel right. :-/

Good point about boat tho ... that scenario is extra anoying, even tho one must admit that its the only place in whole EA where pushing characters to instant death makes sense ... concidering that its just one HUGE edge.

No it doesn't make sense. Boats sails on water and falling in water does not even mean instant death for 2 years old kid.
But I guess it doesn't make sense to discuss about what would make sense or not.

Instant death is boring in video games and all kind of games assume that.
Hopefully we don't bleed to death each time a bullet hit us or each time we have a big crash in a racing game... It doesn't make sense, but it makes better video games.

I dont know many 2y old kinds who would be sailing cave lakes in heavy armor ...

For me, it's actually one of the most interesting battles (alongside the one with the lava) because you fight in extremely tight spaces with cliffs, and the usual height advantages are not present. In one playthrough with the main character, I won the initiative, climbed aboard the duergar's ship, used Repulsor, and the battle ended immediately.

In general, shoving is a useful mechanic to counter ranged characters who would otherwise have too much advantage from heights (since there are no abilities like Teleportation in DOS2 in BG3).

Larian’s high ground bonus is home brewed as well, but after it was nerfed to just giving +2 I like it.

The reason I like it now, is that +2 is something you can deal with in a variety of way. It’s a bonus, but not an overwhelming one like it was with free advantage. While being able to push enemies down is good, making it more situational (like only if they are within a vicinity of a cliff) wouldn’t hurt, as there is a variety of spells and items one can use to counteract the high ground bonus. Push being as powerful as it is, makes it the best option available at almost all times, which is boring from an instrumental play point of view.

I don’t hate push in encounters without major drops - though I think push is still poorly balanced: solid damage and high ground advantage does make shoving enemies a bit of a no brainer option, but it doesn’t dominate the battle’s outcome like in some of the later encounters. Still, I think full attack action cost would be a better fit, than a bonus actions.

In underdark and forge, though, push is inexcusable.

The strength of the shove mechanic derives from the level design that favors verticality. Additionally, ranged characters also benefit from it, as it increases their range, providing another significant advantage. It is quite evident that knocking down enemies results in solid damage, which is not only expected but also realistic. In fact, I would be disappointed if it were any different. However, the decision to use the shove mechanic is not always straightforward. In my opinion, it could be considered an attack instead of a full action, allowing warriors at level 5 to attack and shove in the same turn. This adjustment seems like a good compromise.

Less of a level design, and more of a riddiculous shove range. It would be perfectly fine to be shovable if you stand near a ledge. Not so much if the ledge is what seems like 20 meters away, and your full plated warrior still gets thrown like a freesby into magma.

Fortunately, shove distance and its action cost should be adjustable through mods, if it won't get ironed out during final balance pass.

Can't the ranged characters that already have "significant" advantage use shove against anyone that comes for him ?

Shove is not at all a mechanic that "counter ranged character". It just counter everyone.
You don't seem to realize that melee characters are hurted by shove a lot more than casters and ranged characters.

You are shoved but not dead : walk again while they hit you, or become a ranged character.
You have shove but he's not dead : walk again while they still hit you, or become a ranged character.

Such verticality, as well as the general map design and the bottomless pit, is precisely what makes shove a problem as currently balanced.
Seems more reasonable to balance shove better than to change the entire map.

Is there a problem with Thunderwave ? No, because it is a balanced choice among many others.
The ennemy don't use it often. I don't remember ever being insta killed because of it, and they surely never use it to wake their allies up.

But there is a problem with Roaring Thunder arrows, especially because they are used by ennemies in the underdark (bottomless pit everywhere).
There is a problem with Dror Razglin pushing skills, especially because of the spider pit and the bottomless pit.
There is a problem with the Minotaurs ability to pushn because you fight them right next to bottomless pit.
There is a problem with shove because everyone can dash + shove and because it allow to wake characters up.

And there is a problem with everything listed above because the distance you have to move away from a ledge not to being pushed is ridiculously high.

Yes, they are still duergar, even when wearing full plate armor. The distance, however, is calculated based on the character's strength and the opponent's weight. Furthermore, we are still talking about humanoid beings with supernatural powers, especially when considering that at certain levels of strength, it can be comparable to that of giant creatures.

I still find it plausible within the D&D ecosystem.

No, the distance is not based on character's strenght and opponent's weight.
The distance is the same for everyone and the weight define the %to succeed.

EDIT : my bad, I have to check that in the code. It's not as simple as I thought it was.

Couple patches ago they made it so strength would influence shove and throw distance. So last time I played my bard had a pitiful shove distance (and more or less what I think the shove distance should be, though the ridiculously high arc made it look awkward).

Mods already reduce shove distance, add shove prone and make it an action, and use extra attack

Can MODS remove Shove completely from the game? Or is the ability hard coded in?