Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Still Too Much Cheese

Yes, jump can extend you movement by a decent amount, I don't think it is that bad - dash will still move you further and I find situations in which I don't need or wouldn't benefit from jump to be common enough, for the jump boost to become dominant strategy.

I don't see dip becoming any bigger. It's damage shouldn't scale while other damage and HP will. Sure it's extra damage so its always better to have, especially if you can dip before engagement, but I don't think it will have a major impact.

I would say jumping is a bit a problem extending your movement.

High strength characters reach insane heights by just jumping, making terrain and tactical placement less important. They can basically teleport on a hill or other elevation, when you should in fact be climbing and being affected by difficult terrain. I'm constantly shocked how high and far my 18 Strength characters can reach. Ranges have been shortened and movement rates increased = ranged characters took a double hit. And they're not safe anywhere against high strength jumpers.

High strength monsters like Minotaurs simply fly over obstacles like a 12m diameter Sleet Storm. That's exactly the type of enemy it should be useful against - slow down the scary melee brutes. Nope, they fly over. This might have more to do with a special ability than pure strength though. Whatever it is, there are way too many enemies without wings that just fly wherever they please.

Hide/Stealth...
im very sure Larian is checking how we alpha their game, its what this phase is for after all... and the hiding or sight cone isnt the issue... the lacking part is the 360 sound, or memory of the targets... alot of these problems can be fixed, with simple AI changes...

Like AI was attacked, have no target, look 360 around, head in direction of sound, head in direction of attack...

That will fix most of the issues, but also opens up combos, for example one rogue attacks, while another rogue places a minor illusion as decoy...

That is true.

The issue is inherited from D:OS1&2 so it’s a third game Larian ships with similar “stealth” system.

Additional AI behaviours can address some issues, but not walking behind an enemy, hiding, and hitting with advantage as enemy won’t able to react - it is just a more elaborate version of bonus action jump+disengage behind target and attack with advantage that we have in early builds.

I still think changes to rules would be simpler and better option, then coding AI responses to respond to cheese. AI is difficult and prone to errors. Good ruleset tend to be more reliable. It also doesn’t address the other issue I have, that at the moment stealth is player dependant, not character dependant. In an RPG it is our characters that should succeed or fail in tasks, not the players.

There are going to be subclasses added in the full game (Assassin) that are predicated on Stealth and surprise. But it feels so bad to use these mechanics that it's almost like cheating or breaking the game so much so that I don't use any stealth or hide mechanics unless I'm on a Rogue.

I just want Hide to be a FULL action for non-Rogues and for the action economy to be properly balanced. Larian surprised me with Reactions, but I'm not sure the way they handle stealth/obscurity in their games is ever going to be conducive to feeling like it's truly a part of the identity of a class vs. cheating.

I am curious to Assassin and how broken it could be in BG3 especially if they have a Haste potion or potential multiclass dip in Fighter.

yea full action dosent really fix it, it just moves the problem to higher levels when people get more actions with spells etc... hide is part of DnD 5e, what needs to solve it is how AI uses perception just not on sight but also 360sound, and how it reacts to investigation when in combat but cant persive a enemy...

for example, greater invisibility adds the same problem, and everyone can be target of greater invis... you have to add 360 sound to AI and a reactive AI that tries to look for targets...

so no, full action, or obscure etc, dosent fix the problem... it at best delays it, and it will come back with greater invis and more actions... only a reactive AI can fix this...

The way I am seeing it is that if all characters are brought into combat at the same time, then only groups of four players will be able to make surprise attacks since they are only controlling one character each and can coordinate properly using chat, just like in DnD when a group all ambushes at the same time. The attacks are all happening at once, if the enemy is unaware of the party, then they don't get to make any extra checks or roll initiative in the middle of the ambush.

Not sure that Larian would get it right in singleplayer to have all four of our characters get to make their surprise attacks before the enemies do anything. Once the first character has attacked, there would have to be an immediate popup or something asking if we wanted to do surprise attacks for each of our other characters (to simulate the full party ambush.) I feel like their version of Surprised would be the enemy constantly rolling Perception checks in real time until our characters who are now in TB mode are guaranteed to fail their stealth rolls, and because we cannot control more than one at a time, we get screwed out of a proper ambush. Having an actual pause and ready attack features seems like it would be less complicated than all of this.

The logical way to approach surprise rounds would be to just have all our characters get pulled into turn-based while the others are still in stealth. Those characters are still stealthed, still under the stealth rules, but get a free turn while the enemy is surprised to do whatever. That seems like an entirely reasonableapproach to take.

Some people love it easy, silly and cheezy , thats great. And we have this right now.

Now for others, how about having it hard and tactical by removing the cheese elements and making more D&D ,difficult and more atmospheric/less silly?

Wouldn't that be amazing. Both worlds, we pick.
Right now its a one way fromage carnival street. Making it just smellier <hard> <very hard> <impossible> won't change the type of cheese. We need options to remove/add stuff.

So much of this could be solved with a customized D&D options menu. But after 2 years not a hint of such thing could be available...So MODS I guess.
Even the first months of EA for Pathfinder WoTr, I think there were way more gameplay options/customization than the 2 years of BG3 EA combined.

We still have to see the implementation of difficulty settings. It has been hinted at but we haven't heard of it a single time.

See this thread for discussions about that subject : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=751481&page=1

The way I am seeing it is that, if one character attacks from Surprise, then all player characters AND enemies are brought into the combat TB mode, and enemies have to make a Perception check or be Surprised = lose their first turn. This way, it doesn't require a huge amount of coordination from the players. The other 3 characters just have to be relatively close by.

Since enemies would be pulled into TB mode, they would not be constantly rolling Perception checks in real time. They'd roll Perception once, either at the beginning of the combat or the start of their turn. A success means they could act that first turn; a failure means they couldn't.

By this, do you mean that the stealthed characters wouldn't be pulled into TB mode? Being stealthed isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with being in TB mode...

This only works if BG3 doesn't double count surprise rounds. Under your suggestion, stealthed characters not brought into TB mode should not get an additional turn the same round they enter the combat.

I have quite a different experience than you then. Better use jump + speed + action than wasting your entire action (and eventually extra attack) for dash.
The arena are not really large and the difference between dash (action + speed) and jump (bonus action + speed) is not often really worth it.

I mostly NEVER use dash but I feel the need to spend my bonus action with jump very often just to benefit the extended movement.
Jumping to extend your movement is a very optimal action if you don't have something specific to do with your bonus action. Which may happen quite often at the beginning of combats depending your class/subclass.

This is still true. Jump gives you an increased distance and thus makes Dash much less effective, especially when you can jump up ridiculous distances instead of having to climb.

Plus, I'd prefer rolling through an enemy controlled space than jumping ridiculously over their heads like a grasshopper... But that's more animation than mechanics and mechanics is the topic. Still, just wanted to put that out there again.

Well I really hate how PC's and enemies play like Spiderman in BG3. It's showcased in the very first fight against the imps where 17 Strength lets you fly to high elevation rather than it being a meaninful obstacle to climb to. You can't even make a good old fashioned shield wall. I've had hellboars just jump over my frontliners. It's really dumb from both a tactical and stylistic point of view.

Quoting myself because this is related informations.

Here's the difference between jumping + moving and dash. I tried with a strenght character and with Gale.

Gale can move 18m if he dash and 11m if he jump + move.
My Paladin can move 18m if he dash and 15m if he jump + move.

Dash is useless and jumping is the optimal way to move even if there aren't any verticality.
Sure, the difference for non-strenght based characters is "important" but it does not worth wasting your action at all.

Seems like your claim is only true for Strength characters. Gale doesn't look like he gained any significant distance from using the Jump Bonus Action...? Maybe 5 extra feet of distance, for a ~15% movement speed buff?

Whereas the strength character got an extra ~15-20 feet of movement by jumping, for a ~60% movement speed buff.

And of course the big consideration is: "Is that extra distance worth a bonus action?" The answer to which is highly affected by
- verticality of terrain
- opportunity attacks that you might entirely skip by jumping over enemies
- surface hazards you could jump over
- what other bonus actions your character has

Of course it depends the situation. It is mostly usefull during the first turn for some characters... And always for characters that have to move a lot during combats.

But I'd rather ask if wasting an action worth the extra distance given by dash. Answer highly affected by :
- the size of combat arena
- the range of attack of non-strenght based characters

Many spells and all ranged weapons have a range attack of 18m. If Gale jump + move it is 11m more. It mean that even the worst character at jumping can attack 27m arround him at the cost of an action + a bonus action. Except at the beginning of combats, you mostly never need 27m so the extra distance given by dash that makes you move 7m farther is a waste of action in most situation.

I have plenty exemple in my last playthrough (I record everything) in which Gale use this technique and can attack an ennemy he could'nt have if he had just move (or obviously if he had dash).

On top of that, strenght based characters is a rather "common" build.
Just try to jump before moving and you'll probably notice pretty fast how optimal it is

Sure, his jump+move is 11m, but his regular move is already 9m. So Gale is spending a bonus action to move an additional 2m. Which, hey, might be just what you need to get in range!

But that's much less likely to be relevant than a Strength character getting an extra 6m from jumping, especially since Str characters likely are melee. That's a 65% increase on the area they threaten! And especially worth it since Str characters typically have less use for their bonus actions. And here's where jump increasing distance is dumb, as it almost entirely overshadows Dash.

It feels like the AI plays around Gale’s move+attack range radius, consistently hanging 70 feet away from him. Hence, jump isn’t just 2 feet of extra movement, it’s the exact right amount of movement to get into spell range.

The worst part of jump, to me, is that it costs movement to create movement, but the game won’t let you plan around the tipping point where PCs don’t have enough movement left to jump.

Here are two sequences:
1. At start of turn, no enemy is within Magic Missile range. Because MM has multiple targets, the auto-pather won’t tell you if there’s any way to get in range (which it would for Eldritch Blast). Moving towards the target, you realize you’re half a foot short. Because you’ve used a bunch of movement, you’ve unwittingly crossed the invisible line beyond which you can no longer jump. Target out of reach for good, turn possibly wasted. Feels horrendous

2. At start of turn, no enemy is within Magic Missile range. You know what’s up so you jump immediately. You know about the wonky pathing so you jump over a weird corner or obstacle around which the auto-pather goes kinda nuts. Jump effectively gives 3 or 4 feet of movement. Enemy in sight, shoot’em dead. Feels fine, but the decisional meat of that turn was all around jumping, just like last turn, just like next turn. Wizards jump around, that’s the way it is in BG3.

So here is exactly how jump works in the game currently.

- All characters seems to be able to jump 5m.
- The distance they can jump is 5m + their strenght modifier if positive
- The movement cost is always 3m

=> Gale with his -1 modifier can jump 5m (5 + 0). Jumping 5m cost 3m so it gives him 2 meters of extra move.
=> Shadowheart with her +1 modifier can jump 6m (5 + 1). Jumping 6m cost 3m so it gives her 3 meters of extra move.
=> My 18 strength character with his +4 modifier can jump 9m (5 + 4). Jumping 9m cost 3m so it gives him 6m of extra move.

Characters are not penalized if their modifier is negative. Everyone have a minimum of +2 meters of extra move.
Of course the higher is your strenght modifier, the higher is the extra move granted by jumping.

Fortunately (at least for me), it is quite easy to edit the jump so that it consumes the proper distance.



If you are right, I guess I'll have a very pleasant time playing the game with the proper jump distance. I'd have to strategize a lot more to be able to attack them.
Or maybe it's going to make longbow and heavy crossbow even more appealing when I'll have edited their range (range in DnD are too big for BG3 but I plan to keep the proportions between weapons as much as possible).

Can't wait to try this