Sorry, I know that the above quote is from the separate thread about hex, but thought querying the ranger aspects would be better done here!
TomReneth, you say “They 'fixed' those features in BG3 by making Rangers better at being Rogues than Rogues are” which makes me think I’m doing Ranger wrong. Though admittedly I’ve only played one, he certainly wasn’t as good a Rogue as Astarion. Okay, the fact he could hide as a bonus action and attack with advantage in the same round at low levels was probably OTT, but he couldn’t sneak attack and while he could have taken Sleight of Hand (though didn’t) I don’t think he got options for Skill Expertise. And then the rogue subclasses take things still further in different directions.
It is certainly possible to play what we have of BG3 with a ranger instead of a rogue - and I’m all for that, as I enjoy playing with different party configurations - but I still think I’d find Rogues better at traditional rogue stuff, with the Ranger having an overlapping but different set of skills.
Perhaps you were just exaggerating for effect, but I’m particularly interested as I’m planning a run with an Urban Tracker/Bounty Hunter ranger who I do want to have a bit of a rogue-y flavour!
If you're not generally outperforming a Rogue as a Ranger inn BG3, then you're probably not playing very optimally or you're just not paying enough attention to what the Ranger actually did. Here are some dmg numbers for a Rogue vs a Hunter Ranger with Colossus Slayer. I'm assuming a base 65% accuracy for the sake of simplifying the comparison, which means advantage is 87,75%.
Rogue
BA attack: +1d6 = 2,275 // Advantage: 3,07125
Lvl 1: 1d6 + 3 + 1d6 = 6,5 // Advantage: 8,775
Lvl 3: 1d6 + 3 + 2d6 = 8,775 // Advantage: 11,84625
Lvl 5: 1d6 + 4 + 3d6 = 11,7 // Advantage: 15,795
This is weaker than Rogues in tabletop, because in tabletop we can Sneak Attack on the bonus action attack too. But not in BG3.
Ranger:
Lvl 2: 2d6 + 6 = 8,45
Lvl 3: ((2d6 + 6)x0,65 + 1d8x0.8775) = 12,35
Lvl 5: ((3d6 + 12)x0,65 + 1d8x0.95) = 18,925
I've rounded the numbers for Colossus Slayer down a bit to simplify the math, but the trend is pretty clear. Even without Hunter's Mark or advantage, a regular Hunter Ranger with Colossus Slayer and two-weapon fighting is keeping pace or outperforming a Rogue at the levels we have available. And it is much easier to use multiattack + Colossus Slayer since they don't have the requirements Sneak Attack does. When we factor in BA hide for Ranger, then archery + Colossus Slayer becomes a major factor too.
Add in that Expertise is not a very strong mechanic early on (+2 bonus to two skills) and the ease with which we can use Guidance (+2,5 avg on any skill on any character. Shadowheart has it, and everyone can put on an amulet found super early to cast it), the benefits of the Rogue starts to look rather shaky. Furthermore, Rogues are normally a 4 skill class, but because Sleight of Hand now determines Thieves' Tools (not the case in tabletop), we're forced to use one of those skills to get what should be normal proficiencies for Rogues. We're essentially a 3 skill Rogue. Rangers, contrarily, is now a 4 skill class and can be a 5 skill class with Urban Tracker, where you pick up Thieves' Tools proficiency through Sleight of Hand.
Then consider that while Rogues are stuck with a dexterity build, Rangers can actually go strength if they so choose for powerful abilities like Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master.
And we haven't even begun to look at spellcasting yet, where Rangers generally outshine Arcane Trickster Rogues. BG3 even lets us take advantage of more niche Ranger utility spells, like Speak With Animals, unlocking additional ways of handling situations without combat. Want to deal with spellcasters? Silence. More dmg? Hunter's Mark. Etc.
In the 5e system, Rangers tend to scale poorly after lvl 5, but they have a really good early game. And if they're still planning on adding multiclassing for the full release, then a Ranger 5 -> Rogue is probably going to be one of the strongest dex characters we can make. If they fix the way Sneak Attack works, at least.
Rogues aren't "bad", but Larian made the Ranger very good at being a Rogue and that is proving a bit problematic.
problem is you need concentration for hunters mark and all the other ranger stuff so the value is low and like i said you can get the item and move that cocentaration to anyone that maybe doesnt need it as desperately to do damage. if you could use hunters mark without it sure as is it's meh even in best of circumstances.
Generally speaking, Rangers are fine for dmg lvl 2-10 with just multiattack and Colossus Slayer (Blastlock, which is often considered the benchmark to meet, is at 7,8 and 16,9 at lvl 2 and 5, so just compare that to the numbers above). Hunter's Mark is a really nice bonus if you're looking to wear down something big, but it isn't very important in most fights and can actually reduce your dmg output if you have to constantly use your BA to reapply it instead of making a BA attack (dual wield, hand crossbows or polearm master). PfEG, on the other hand, is a spell can is relevant at all levels when dealing with creatures like abberrations (Mind Flayers), undead or fiends (like devils), because they not only impose disadvantage on all attack rolls, but protect you from fear and charm. In EA alone we're dealing with aberrations, undead, fey and fiends, which PfEG helps against.
A lot of people seem to talk about D&D as just a damage game, but defensive features have a great deal of potential. Less time spent worrying about your survival is more time to spend on damage dealing or other useful tasks.
