Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General The Deeper Rothe, or, a new suggestion for Moon druids.

Okay guys, we're seeing an uptick in unsatisfied moon druid players (myself included) and we're seeing people vehemently against them. Some people wanna buff bear at level 4 by giving it multiattack, other people wanna tell you to stfu. That's the gist of what's going on.

I'm here today with a new idea. So the bear seems to be shoe horned into some sort of tank role, as evidenced by its taunt, higher HP, and crap damage rolls. Fine, okay. So the bear is some sort of tank, then where's our melee damage wildshape? Our highest damage wildshape, the deep rothe, is a little weak. And worst of all? Land druids have access to it. I just threw up in my mouth.

I propose a different change... The Deeper Rothe!

• Make the deep rothe a moon exclusive wildshape, first and foremost. Land has access to too much anyways, it makes no sense to give them this form. Give moon some identity would ya!

• Keep its stats the same. That includes its 23 health, 10 AC.

• Nerf it's Gore attack from 3d4+4 to 2d4+4. Stay with me here!

• Give it access to Rage and Frenzied strike. We see these abilities on the level 5 boar companion for beastmasters and honestly every moon druid is foaming at the mouth.

What does this accomplish? Well, so it keeps its worse stats from the Polar Bear. Less AC, less health, less constitution, etc. It sacrifices a bit of damage from its Gore primary attack but gains rage, which adds +2 damage to its attacks as well as access to Frenzied strike, a bonus action attack that would be 1d8+4. And you may be wondering...

How is this any different from just giving it multiattack? Great question reader! So wildshape, Rage, and Frenzied attack all require bonus actions. This means that you got some ramp up time. If you were to use this mid battle, it'd take you 2 turns of setup just to get that second attack. Conversely you could pre-cast deep rothe before a fight and sacrifice your opportunity to cast from range before enemies close in and still have 1 round of setup to cast Rage.

I am open to suggestions of tweaking some things and I'd love to hear yalls constructive feedback on this idea before I submit it to the suggestions forum.

I would actually love for moon druid to not have single cookie cutter wild shape. People seem adamant to buff the polar bear and ignore the other forms. I like this suggestion.

I think the hardest thing to accept is that bear form does crap damage in BG3 and is relegated to a tank role. This is probably not how people played their moon druid in pnp dnd. It's a huge shift in how people used this wildshape.

The problem is that they made the bear into a low damage tank without offering any substitute for a melee dps type wildshape. It leaves a hole in our wildshape line-up imo.

I agree Deep Rothe should not be available to Land. Like, you get that as an additional shape @ L4 and you didn't get anything special because Land got it as well.

Meanwhile, Land gets stuff in their circle and we don't get it.

Imma hard disagree. I don't think land druid should be losing shapes, that just reduces your options and makes it more boring. I think though, that both subclasses should not share exact shapes statistically.

I think moon druid should have the stronger version of the forms and land druid the weaker version. An example from RAW d&d:

Moon Druid gets:
-Dire Wolf
-Brown Bear
-Giant Spider

Land Druid gets:
-Wolf
-Black Bear
-Giant Wolf Spider

Now I wouldn't use the exact statistics as Moon druid deservedly needed the nerf. If it were up to me I'd give moon druid the current wildshapes at level 2 (giant spider, polar bear, wolf) and buff them slightly at level 4 to reduce the awkward gap from lvl 2 to 6 (when theyd unlock new stronger wildshapes). And I would give land druid weaker versions of the same beasts and likely buff them at level 4 as well (to emulate their CR 1/2 unlock they should get).

The big problem with moon druid I currently see is that there's no reason to choose it as the land druid gets the strongest shape (giant spider) and wildshapes somewhat equal in power to the polar bear (rothe and wolf). The draw of moon druid should not be more wildshape options (both subclasses should have a somewhat equal variety to their wildshapes) but just stronger wildshapes so they can be more combat viable. I also think the land druid should get access to a flying form as well (weaker though, likely as vulnerable as the cat) because again, I believe both subclasses should have a wide variety of wildshapes that feel equal in power to each other (so you dont feel pin holed into choosing the optimal one).

Now another big problem: The Giant Spider. It is my opinion that this bastard is far and beyond the other wildshapes available and this is super problematic because land druids get access to it. Statisticly the giant spider is based on a CR 1 creature (again land druids should not be getting this form). But the biggest problem with this form is the web ability and its 'arachnid jump'. For the measily cost of a bonus action the giant spider can cast a 2nd level spell (web) at the reduced cost of a bonus action AND without concentration, allowing them to cast it as many times as they'd like, applying an aoe enweb and difficult terrain. The spider also for some reason, known for their jumping ability?, get a bonus action 40ft jump that costs no movement making it the most mobile of the combat viable shapes.

So yeah, overall I'd say
-give land druid weaker versions of moon druids shapes but don't give them reduced options
-buff both druids' forms slightly at level 4 so they can keep up (wildshapes are still insanely strong at levels 2 and 3 so it isn't necessary till then)

I disagree with your statement. Moon druid should have more options. Land druid has too many options, and giving them a flying wildshape this early would be bad. Land druids get access to a lot more spells than moon druids do. Haste, fly, misty step, even a few damage spells that don't require concentration... Why should they get flying with wildshape when they can fly without it? They get misty step which is, in my opinion, superior as it's a bonus action. They're only limited by the circle they choose.

That said, while I think they shouldn't get deep rothe, I do think they should keep the other wildshapes as is. From a gameplay standpoint, giving them access to those weaker versions you suggested will just unneccessarily hurt land druid players too much. My whole point of this post is to give moon druids a wildshape that is better at melee than the rest and that land doesn't have access to. Not to make land druids wildshaping unviable.

I choose deep rothe because it is similar to the boar already, is our current highest damage wildshape (just barely), and due to its stats is a bit too weak. It's in an awkward place and I just think that my suggested change to it would make it a better choice and fill the void that the bear form left when they shoe horned it into a tanking role.

It really wouldn't. The way I propose it, they'd be weaker from levels 2-3 (which is fine as wildshape is incredibly strong at these levels) and ideally their shapes would get buffed at level 4 and become similar in power to the current forms (which these forms are still combat viable at levels 4-5 currently, at the very least as back up options).


Yes I'm making a similar point. You say moon druids should have the best 'melee damage' dealer wildshape but I see it as they should have the best 'combat' wildshapes. The difference in power between the two doesn't have to be so massive that it makes land druids wildshapes not viable in combat. Also, the way I see it, is that you have 'combat viable' wildshapes that serve different roles.
-Tank: bear
-Charger: rothe
-CC'er: spider
-Damage: wolf (yes I believe the wolf is the true best pure damage wildshape as it only averages 1.5 less damage than the rothe but has pact tactics making it hit way more often. Though the giant spider, again, can be considered the best damage dealer if you view your party as a whole, as it consistently applies AoE advantage with enweb every turn)
**side not but you could also add 'mob-killer' to this group with beasts that deal AoE or have rampage effects like the giant hyena, which I think Larian should definitely add to the game as they already have animated models and it serves a different role that other wildshapes do not**

The way you propose it, the biggest flaw with wildshape that I see is still present. Moon druid will have its best form (your proposed rothe) and it'll only ever turn into that form instead of having a variety and balance between its combat forms. Taking away the variety from land druid does the same. If you separate both subclasses wildshapes and assign them a baseline power level it allows you to both
1. give moon druid the strongest wildshapes
2. give both druids a variety of options of wildshapes depending on combat (as hopefully there would not be a blatant strongest form as there is now)

And again I do not believe the proposed nerf to land druids forms at level 2 will render it unviable. I don't think the wildshape stats should be like the referenced RAW ones. The power difference between the subclasses doesn't need to be as big as it is in RAW. Just the land druid will be a bit weaker at lvl 2, back to similar current power now and the moon druid will be stronger than it is now at level 4.

I just don't see how nerfing land druids shapes at 2 and 3 will benefit anything. None of their forms are OP at those levels.

Do you have any proposed buffs to level 4 moon shapes? Because that's the issue I'm trying to solve, and this is my solution. Much of the community will snap at you if you mention giving bear its multi-attack at 4, so I'm just trying to find a solution that everyone can live with.

Your issue seems to be that I'm removing deep rothe from land druids, but why does that matter? Deep rothe in its current state is not very good. Land druids don't have much reason to even use the form, nor do they need it. They have all they need right now without it. To be honest they have better shapes than they deserve as is, but because of action economy they are just much worse at using them (except spider) so I feel it's a fair trade.

What buffs to moon druids do you propose that won't upset the balance? Because from where I'm sitting, buffing the damage on a damage wildshape is the best course rather than buffing the damage on the tankiest wildshape.

I think a reasonable and fairly likely would be improving their LVL6 feature Primal Strike. getting through magical resistances is FINE but its far less impactful I feel than Land Stride. So it should probably either just give the Moon Circles Wildshapes a base increase to damage or something to that effect to make their Wildshape forms have more damage potential.

I think we should focus on one of the aspects that makes them special. Elementals, yes I know we are only half way until we would typically be able to wild shape into them but i think a fun and lore friendly buff would give the Moon Druid level appropriate Elementals to turn into without having to wait until we hit endgame content (though its been confirmed we will be going past lvl10)
I don't think we should give them full on Elementals that early but there are all kinds of weird Elementals and more obscure older Elementals to pull from like the Orglash or even simply weaker versions of existing elementals like a Fire Snake or something to the effect of a Lesser-Galeb Duhr.
From what i can find the only thing "prohibiting" something like this is that Elemental Wild Shape states you can transform into the typical four Elementals so at most it is an implied restriction but in all honestly I can't see anyone losing any sleep over Moon Druids getting more flavorful and unique Wildshapes early on that would cement their roll as the more extravagant Wildshape subclass
After all this allows Larian to use the models and animations for these Wildshapes for later encounters.

I do not see a reason to change anything with the current Wildshapes available to Moon Druids. They gain new and exclusive Wildshape options at LVL 6, 8, 9, 10 and 12. We have not yet seen what Larian will implement at those levels, so I feel we can't really complain about what we have so far.

Also EVERY DRUID will be able to Wildshape into the bear at LVL 8, but at this level you are better off as a caster unless you are a Moon Druid anyway.

The main issue is that from level 2 to 6, the moon druid progression is terribly flat. All the other (sub) classes progression is linear but somehow this one has to suffer through 4 levels where they start as good and end up as either a subpar land druid or a mediocre fighter. This is both not fun and unbalanced.

This is exactly it and what I'm trying to suggest we solve. It's frustrating when people say "Just wait till 6". Difficulty settings will be added to this game. Moon druids are going to struggle more than other subclasses when they are. Moon druids really seem to be lacking identity.

Aside from wildshape as a BA (which is great in most cases), the Polar Bear is at best, a side grade to other wildshapes. It's damage is awful, taunting has no synergy with the Druid who is likely concentrating a spell, and it's only real use is as a meat shield. It's shoe horned into a light tank role. This would be fine, if Moon druids were given a melee damage alternative. But we weren't. Land druids have access to the most damaging wildshapes, and their damage isn't even impressive. Just no real reason to choose Moon over Land, in my opinion.

How is the moon druid progression not linear? They gain new spells at lvl 3 and lvl 5 just like every other druid subclass.

A mediocre fighter? Maybe at lvl 5 when fighters gain extra attack. Until then a Bear druid with Barkskin is not much worse than Lae'zel with her starting armor and a greatsword. Every fighter/barbarian/paladin will always outperform a moon druid in the later levels in melee because of magical items and feats anyway.

A subpar land druid? At lvl 5 land druids know 4 more spells than moon druids. Are they all useful? (are they even all implemented yet? Mountain should gain access to Lightning Bolt and Meld into Stone at lvl 5 for example) Why should a moon druid care about spells they can't cast in wild shape anyway? If you play a moon druid and you only cast during combat of course you are gonna be worse than a subclass that uses its subclass feature. Meanwhile why should you use wild shape as a land druid before you use all your spellslots in combat? A land druid should not start their first turn in combat by going into wildshape as their only action for that turn.

Hard disagree. Bear claws are 2d4+4. 6-12 damage. That's it. No weapon attacks, no dipping in fire, no coating with poison or anything. There's no way to enhance it. Any level 2 martial class can out damage a polar bear druid if they just use their stuff. And that's just with using regular 2h weapons with no special enhancements.

Grab the flaming sword from the nautiloid and you'll have much more damage than a polar bear before the druid even learns polar bear (for like literally 2 minutes, but still!)

Special Weapon attacks and dipping is Larian homebrew and as such is not balanced. I too could say that in my pen&paper campaign every weapon deals an extra die of damage and it would mess up the balance just like Larians ill thought out homebrew does.

And since you have omitted my point about magical items favoring martial classes in your response I have taken the liberty to highlight it again for you. The sheer flood of magical items in BG3 right now is also not something that should be seen as normal.



Hmmm .... strange how Larians hamfisted homebrews are negativly impacting the balance of the classes.

I mean, I'm talking about this game. BG3. I understand that it is based off of dnd 5e, but this isn't 5e so bringing up 5e balance will bear no fruit (pun intended.) They're trying to create a fun video game, not a dnd 3d replica. Magic items are fun. Upgrades are fun. That's just how you make a video game. Can call them homebrews if you wish, but in reality it's just video game design.

But that's all outside the point I'm trying to make which is that you could buff wildshapes and they'd still be worse than martials. Wildshapes don't scale, they don't upgrade. You just get new ones. The unfortunate truth right now is that moon druids are simply missing a decent damage wildshape. We have utility forms, the light tank bear form. But no decent damage dealer.